SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

Doncha hate it when that happens.

 

[Paul#42]

Doncha hate it when that happens.

Yes, but I need to live with it until someone pays me for playing civ...

 

[I. Larkin]

post #249 is very useful and with it modeling is possible. (In alexman's Article formulas have lot's of "corrections" and make practical use very difficult). However looking to this formulas I have an impression that
1) FP is not very valuble for 200 schields.
2) Better to build it in Core and make palace jump. There are GLs in SGOTM.
3) Things depend on City sizez and game lenght.
Could we somehow evaluate "end date" of our game?
My bet 600AD - 800AD.
However it is "remote future". I did not see any discussion about current 1250BC situation.
Few questions:
1) Why we are researching Currency, not MM, say?
2) Why India has Poly and Russia Phylo? To trade for frienship?
3) Wat's about wars, embassies?
4) When to revolt?
5) What to do with Barbs?
Or you leave it for my own decision?
Well, I think ignore barbs and revolt at the preturn. They will take 369/625 of our money, but it is OK.
As for war I think to make alliance with India vs Ottos, say. now they are in peace.

 

[Abegweit]

1) FP is not very valuble for 200 schields.

It is very valuable, just for the effect on the city alone. If we can get just a dozen semi-corrupt cities around it, that's priceless.

]2) Better to build it in Core and make palace jump.

Agreed.

There are GLs in SGOTM.

GLs? Where?

]3) Things depend on City sizez and game lenght.
Could we somehow evaluate "end date" of our game?
My bet 600AD - 800AD.

I tend to think so too.

1) Why we research Currency, not MM, say?

For trading purposes. Definitely MM is a bad choice. The AI will learn that before us. Lit is the other choice and we could change. There's only one turn invested.

2) Why India has Poly and Russia Phylo? To trade for frienship?

I couldn't get what I wanted for just Philo. I don't think these two civs know each other. Besides, these techs have no value - except to buy an alliance.

3) Wat's about wars, embassies?

Get embassies with Cleo, Gandhi and Osman. Declare on Mao and bring Osman in.

4) When to revolt?
5) What to do with Barbs?
Or you live this for my own decision?
Well, I think ignore barbs and revolt at the preturn. They will take 369/625 of our money, but it is OK.

Revolt timing depends on what we do about the barbs. I'm for defending the town. I have had no trouble so far with less troops than there are now. Conquest barbs aren't like vanilla. If they actually would attack, I'd agree with you. But mostly they just hang around. So get an impy out of U and a warrior (or a whipped Impy) out of Z. The impy heads south to cover the three archers and the warrior towards whatever other trouble spot appears to cover archers there. I don't want to throw away the money. Andro's alterative of using the money to establish embassies is a good one. Knowing where the AI capitals are is quite useful.

As for war I think to make alliance with India vs Ottos, say.

While this is the safer option, let me make a case for the opposite. First, I don't think this is possible because I doubt they know each other. Second, the main war will be far away and we will have no trouble. Third Philo is worth less than Third, depending on who attacks first, India may not even be in the war. Most importantly, who is to be our next target when the real wars start. I think India, and we don't want to be at war with both alliances at once.

Why don't you establish the first three embassies: Egypt, Turkey and India. Then we can decide where to do next.

Edit: I see you already opened one embassy. Who do they know in the other alliance? Good old AI. Building settlers in size 1 towns.

 

[I. Larkin]

"Get embassies with Cleo, Gandhi and Osman. Declare on Mao and bring Osman in." What to pay for that? Monarchy? Or gpt? I can't evaluate how much before declare. I disagree and without proper arguments I will go my way. (India+WE vs Osman)
"Why don't you establish the first three embassies: Egypt, Turkey and India. Then we can decide where to do next." It is expensive. Idon't want to spread Monarchy and hope that Phylo+ money will be enough.

 

[Abegweit]

On the barb issue.

The odds of an elite archer with a defensive freeshot surviving an attack from a barb horse are almost 90%. 92.4% if the horse is hit by the freeshot, 78% if not. The freeshot itself has a 70% chance of working. In all other cases, our likelihood of survival is almost certain until we go to the attack.

 

[Abegweit]

"Get embassies with Cleo, Gandhi and Osman. Declare on Mao and bring Osman in." What to pay for that? Monarchy? Or gpt? I can't evaluate how much before declare. I disagree and without proper arguments I will go my way. (India+WE vs Osman)

Whoops. I meant Cathy, not Osman so the price is Poly. Of course we won't give up Monarchy for anything. Does Gandhi know Cathy?

Let me repeat the arguments.

While this is the safer option, let me make a case for the opposite. First, I don't think this is possible because I doubt they know each other. Second, the main war will be far away and we will have no trouble. Third Philo is worth less than Third, depending on who attacks first, India may not even be in the war. Most importantly, who is to be our next target when the real wars start. I think India, and we don't want to be at war with both alliances at once.

 

[I. Larkin]

"Whoops. I meant Cathy, not Osman so the price is Poly. Of course we won't give up Monarchy for anything. Does Gandhi know Cathy?"
This make a difference... Gandy knows everybody. Moreover LA enforced by MPP
Relolt. I'd take a risk. The sonner the better. We cant whip in Z now. Next turn again not good (U will have 15 Sch) Nex turn May be. So revolt now or 2 turns after? (withou whip).

 

[Abegweit]

We should certainly wait for the others before going any further. They didn't want anything to happen until the other teams caught up anyway. So there's no rush.

War involving India is not good since they are so far away from anyone in the other alliance.

If we do it, Z should be whipped next turn. Then both cities complete on the following one. Alternately, just build a warrior. Again, both complete in two turns.

 

[I. Larkin]

War involving India is not good since they are so far away from anyone in the other alliance.

If we do it, Z should be whipped next turn. Then both cities complete on the following one. Alternately, just build a warrior. Again, both complete in two turns.

Not exactly. when you revolt it will be 15 Sch in U and it will build nothing next turn. But whiped IImpy will appear. I' l add Moscow picture near India. They also know everybogy and have MPP inside block. No ROP, however.

 

[Andronicus]

Could we somehow evaluate "end date" of our game?
My bet 600AD - 800AD.

I suspect you are in correct range. Without the alliances and 60% for domination I would have said around 400AD but thse differences will delay a little

However it is "remote future". I did not see any discussion about current 1250BC situation.
Few questions:
1) Why we are researching Currency, not MM, say?
2) Why India has Poly and Russia Phylo? To trade for frienship?
3) Wat's about wars, embassies?
4) When to revolt?
5) What to do with Barbs?
Or you leave it for my own decision?
Well, I think ignore barbs and revolt at the preturn. They will take 369/625 of our money, but it is OK.
As for war I think to make alliance with India vs Ottos, say. now they are in peace.

1) Currency and lit both have low AI research priority, whilst I'm sure plenty of them are researching MM right now. Once we get currencey we can trade for MM and gold. Regards lit - do we want libs? If not is it better to get out of AA with CoL while AI researches construction or research lit as trade bait for the above? In SP game I would go currency, lit.
2) Abegweit answered
3) Egypt yes for embassy, others depends if we want to spend money and let barbs sack or hold money and defend. I've already put my suggestion. War - I assume since you have made no mention that there is no current AI -AI war between the ones we know. I think our first real war will definitely be against India as that is our only land connection, therefore allying with Indian group may cause later problems. Only downside of war now against Indians is they are the only ones who can reach us. If we are spread thin against barbs it will be even worse if a few Indians come wandering over with us 6 turns into a 8 turn anarchy . In some ways it may be better to wait until after revolt before dow so we know how long the anarchy will last. Can someone say for certain that we will not be at war with India if we dow their ally without attacking - that is my fear.
4) Soon, but depends on how handle barbs and whether we would need to defend against Indians
5) Either way is OK with me, spend money on embassies +/- alliances before allowing barbs to sack, or defend our vulnerable cities with an impi or 2.

 

[Andronicus]

Check out the AI worker efficiency in Moscow, 3 roaded tiles only one connects to anything
I doubt either Delhi nor Moscow will build a wonder

 

[Abegweit]

In SP game I would go currency, lit.

This is so automatic to me that it never occured to me to ask the question.

I think our first real war will definitely be against India as that is our only land connection, therefore allying with Indian group may cause later problems. Only downside of war now against Indians is they are the only ones who can reach us. If we are spread thin against barbs it will be even worse if a few Indians come wandering over with us 6 turns into a 8 turn anarchy . In some ways it may be better to wait until after revolt before dow so we know how long the anarchy will last. Can someone say for certain that we will not be at war with India if we dow their ally without attacking - that is my fear.

One reason that just occured to me in favour of allying with Cleo's gang is is that both sci civs are on her side. It would be better to wait in most ways. The problem with this is that we will soon lose our small tech lead. We will have nothing but Monarchy to offer. I don't fear India. A couple of Impies is all it takes to defend ourselves. Together with a barracks in Mpondo, we'd be unbeatable. It's a bit early, I agree (and it will probably fire off the GA early too). Close call, I think.

 

[Abegweit]

Not exactly. when you revolt it will be 15 Sch in U and it will build nothing next turn. But whiped IImpy will appear. I' l add Moscow picture near India. They also know everybogy and have MPP inside block. No ROP, however.

As I have said about fourteen times, revolt AFTER they appear, not before.

 

[Abegweit]

Check out the AI worker efficiency in Moscow, 3 roaded tiles only one connects to anything
I doubt either Delhi nor Moscow will build a wonder

Delhi is on a wondrous build right now I'm quite confident it will complete.

 

[Abegweit]

Let's summarise the arguments for various war scenarios.

Early:
* slows the AI down faster
* takes advantage of our small tech lead

Late:
* gets us more time to prepare
* may get a better timed GA

Attack Cleo and her gang:
* safer

Attack Gandhi and his:
* these are the people we actually want to fight
* it could be very difficult to get out of three alliances
* Cleo has sci civs

Consequently, attacking Cleo only makes sense if done early. If done late we will choose our our moment to strike.

Early alliance with Cleo vs. early Gandhi

Cleo:
* it causes a real war (Turkey vs China)
* the MPPs may not fire against us

Gandhi: ?

I conclude that an alliance with Gandhi is a mistake, especially because it may drag on far too long. Whether we wish to ally with Cleo early or late is a harder question. I would go early but, then, lately I have developed this infatuation with early aggression. If you're not at war by 1000BC, there's something wrong.

 

[Paul#42]

And here the votes from the Northern German jury (Mark lives south of me though he is working slightly north of me right now ):

1. revolt as soon as you have enough units to hold barbs in check (in 2 turns I recon - without poprushing in our core towns).
2. declare on China immediately. Sign in Russia (for Philo). India will stay calm till we attack a chinese unit - that might take a while - no urgency for defence & GA...
3. Start FP in Isa immidiately. Build 2-3 Impis in Z and U.
4. irrigate one grassland in Z's range for +5fpt. The worker should chop the forest NW of Z then (during anarchy).
5. Hold Ngome - I did not see there were two of them...
6. draw archer in Z one tile W so he can get the barb horse, no matter if it turns N or E.
7. keep researching Currency. Best trading bet. AI rather choses CoL then Curr.
8. connect a horse.
9. Do not submit before Wotan and Klarius have posted their 1250 BC files

You can post any screenies here before if you have good news to spread
Especially a screeny of F4 would be nice.

EDIT: Re screenshots Delhi and Moscow: Seems the AI have even worse starts then we do. I do not feel too tempted to move our palace there soon

 

[Abegweit]

Is it true that the MPP won't fire if we don't actually attack? I think you're right.

 

[Paul#42]

That's the usual way MPPs work. But I'm not used to locked alliances. Maybe they behave different?
If anyone is bored (of drinking wine on the evenings) and is able to use the editor (I'm not ) he could run a little testgame...

EDIT: Man, Wotan & his crew really take their time on their turnset...

 

[Paul#42]

* it could be very difficult to get out of three alliances

Depends... - we only sign one alliance.

If we sign in Cleo and declare on Cathy,

1. Cleo would declare on us if we attack Cathy.
2. would Cleo declare on us if Cathy attacks us first?
3. do we get a rep hit in either of those cases (no gpt involved, just a tech)?

4. wouldn't Cleo declare on Cathy if we had an MPP with Cleo (and Cathy attacks us)? Or are the locked alliances stronger than the negotiated?