SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

I read. But it contradict to what I see...

Can you give examples? Maybe we can help. (of course not from Cotm 28 )

One other thing: The way you quote in Italics sometimes makes your posts quite difficult to read. Would you mind using the preset quotation?

 

[I. Larkin]

Can you give examples? Maybe we can help. (of course not from Cotm 28 )

One other thing: The way you quote in Italics sometimes makes your posts quite difficult to read. Would you mind using the preset quotation?

It works lot slower... (Quotation) Unfortunatly COTM 28 is the only C3C game where I had FP. May be I did not understand the Article yet.

 

[Abegweit]

Can you give examples? Maybe we can help. (of course not from Cotm 28 )

The best example is the Team Wacken example I linked to, as it relates directly to the case at hand. There's a lot of excellent players in that game.
The summary is quite simple. We can build it locally and get the OCN benefit plus reduction of corruption in Isa from about 25% to 8%. Or we can take Wacken's approach and gain far more.

Re COTM28: Ivan and I have both posted in the threads so there's nothing spoilerish about it between him and me.

 

[Abegweit]

Unfortunatly COTM 28 is the only C3C game where I had FP. May be I did not understand the Article yet.

This is another good thread about FP location.

 

[I. Larkin]

Clear there is no point to discuss what would be "if". I think you belive me, that if each turnset after mine we research 2-3 turns faster it could give Phylo 9 turns earlier. Sure we would not have so many Cities. If compare with current situation (we have Monarchy) or with situation that we have the same but sling did not come through it is a big difference.
I always think of worse, but it proves nothing. 9 turns earlier Phylo may give no sling as a contrast.
Impy: to defend vs barbs with Impy would be much easer. So far we lose archer and 1-3 City will be rancasted.
I will see how to deal better now. (Got file)
FP discussion: Abeweit, how far you are at COTM28? I can show you an example of "currupted near FP City". We may builg GLH and swich to HG just in case...
I think FP better get in Egypt or India with the GL.
I will think, who needs embassy first. I think it is resonable to ask India to go for a war vs Egytians (for Phylo +) Will it be OK if I make this move and send a file to discuss "revolt or not"?

 

[Abegweit]

Clear there is no point to discuss what would be "if". I think you belive me, that if each turnset after mine we research 2-3 turns faster it could give Phylo 9 turns earlier. Sure we would not have so many Cities. If compare with current situation (we have Monarchy) or with situation that we have the same but sling did not come through it is a big difference.

This discussion has become pointless. No one on the team agrees with you, and I doubt anyone else will either so I think it's time for you should let it go. In any case, I agree with you that we should grow our cities at this point. We're now on the same side. Right?

FP discussion: Abeweit, how far you are at COTM28? I can show you an example of "currupted near FP City". We may builg GLH and swich to HG just in case...

I don't think there's any need for you to show me. I understand perfectly well how it works. What you need to do is to convince youself. Count the number of cities you have between there and the capital. Then plug the numbers into Alexman's formulas. Next try it with a case where there's only a few.

I think FP better get in Egypt or India with the GL.

Great Leader? I agree. It's far more valuable than an army.

. I think it is resonable to ask India to go for a war vs Egytians (for Phylo +) Will it be OK if I make this move and send a file to discuss "revolt or not"?

They won't do it unless you declare first. I personally would prefer to ally with Cleo's crew and stay well away from the conflict. That's why I suggested Turkey vs. China. This decision needs to be made before anything happens. Whether to go to war and which side to take.

 

[I. Larkin]

I don't think there's any need for you to show me. I understand perfectly well how it works. What you need to do is to convince youself. Count the number of cities you have between there and the capital. Then plug the numbers into Alexman's formulas. Next try it with a case where there's only a few.

There is no pricise formula for "Corruption" in the Alexman's article. If we count Rank from Palce, not FP, it explain smth. But in FP City itself must be a high corruption.
I am writing it to explain that we can't have 2 independent Cores, as Civ3.
If you have rough idea, how close 2 cores must be give a clue.

They won't do it unless you declare first. I personally would prefer to ally with Cleo's crew and stay well away from the conflict. That's why I suggested Turkey vs. China. This decision needs to be made before anything happens. Whether to go to war and which side to take.

.
OK, lets discuss first. I wil not tuch anything 24 hours. I prefer hit Cleo first. They are strongest, and it is safer before MM, I think.

 

[Andronicus]

Water will get to the cow in six turns.

Had a thought
Once in monarchy (soon), we only need 1 extra food in Zimbabwe for 5fpt.
This will be achieved once the next grass tile (1NW of Ulundi) is irrigated meaning cow can be left mined (why irrigate cow then mine grass when irrigating grass does same outcome?).
Later we will probably want to irrigate the next tile along (the mGrass 1SE of Zimbabwe) to get irrigation to plains and so we can use a mHill allowing 10spt so we can build a combo factory.

What is the aim for Zimbabwe in monarchy?
I suggest averaging anything less than 10spt means we either waste the 5fpt - 2 turn growth, or we waste the rax and only build settlers / workers.
eg if worker takes 2 turns to build we cannot use extra shields growing every 2 turns, therefore any workers must be built in 1 turn.
A 4 turn SF could operate size 4-5 with 6,6+2, 7, 7+2 spt, but this wastes the rax.
Getting 10spt requires mining the goat mountain and 1 hill as well as having 2 grass tiles irrigated - thats 36 worker turns on the mining and 8 on the irrigation. Until then I dont think we will be able to build military and workers or setters plus maintain 5fpt.(except in GA)

 

[Andronicus]

It is possible that the alliance blocks are already at war. I note in mark's save an injured Otto archer near Pi-Ramesses (of course it could have been barb hunting).
I recommend an embassy or 2 before deciding who to dow.
Argument against the India block is that they are the only ones who can reach us currently whilst our military is decidedly shakey. So agree war better against Egypt block first.
Another thought is to wait and see if the AI get more money (ie if there are other civs in their alliance and they trade their new techs for cash) we could then buy money with gpt then dow an alliance partner? My uncertainty re rep effect makes me wary of this though.

 

[Paul#42]

Great Leader? I agree. It's far more valuable than an army.

If we get it really soon, you may convince me because a horses' army is nice but not a game-breaker. But the closer we get to chivalry the more resistance I will offer But by then we should have had a handbuilt FP for 500 years, right?

I do not see the advantage of a far away (India or Egypt) now, but we will start it in I soon (now) and if a leader shows up, we will discuss its use (unless Abegweit has the mouse ).

 

[Abegweit]

I recommend an embassy or 2 before deciding who to dow.

How about embassies with Turkey and India? That's one from each bloc. They are also the only two countries with which we have anything to bribe other than Monarchy.

Argument against the India block is that they are the only ones who can reach us currently whilst our military is decidedly shakey. So agree war better against Egypt block first.

Per my understanding, declaring war won't fire off the MPP. We have to attack to actually do this. Turkey vs. China won't really bring us into any conflict. Am I right? This is also an argument in favour, BTW. When we are ready to go to war itwill be easier to go up the peninsula than across the water.

 

[markh]

Great Leader? I agree. It's far more valuable than an army.

What is a Great Leader and what is an Army ? What are you guys talking about ? I have not seen any for ages in SGOTMs.

Hopefully all the bad luck was left in Team Liz.

However I would handbuild the FP. I would not rely on our "luck" with leaders. If we get one we can still think of what to do with it. We are not prepared to fight, so let us start the FP, so we get the benefits of it as soon as possible.

 

[Abegweit]

If we get it really soon, you may convince me because a horses' army is nice but not a game-breaker. But the closer we get to chivalry the more resistance I will offer

Horse armies suck. Swords and MDI are good though.

I do not see the advantage of a far away (India or Egypt) now.

Are you serious?

 

[Andronicus]

Culture graph reveals first revolt - Psycho Bunnies between turns 100-110, we're at turn 70, no-one else played beyond turn 62.

 

[Paul#42]

Once in monarchy (soon), we only need 1 extra food in Zimbabwe for 5fpt.
This will be achieved once the next grass tile (1NW of Ulundi) is irrigated meaning cow can be left mined (why irrigate cow then mine grass when irrigating grass does same outcome?).

Good idea. spare some turns. Chop the forest instead. This could complete us an archer / Impi even in anarchy (if timed properly).

Later we will probably want to irrigate the next tile along (the mGrass 1SE of Zimbabwe) to get irrigation to plains and so we can use a mHill allowing 10spt so we can build a combo factory.
Getting 10spt requires mining the goat mountain and 1 hill as well as having 2 grass tiles irrigated - thats 36 worker turns on the mining and 8 on the irrigation. Until then I don't think we will be able to build military and workers or setters plus maintain 5fpt.(except in GA)

Yes, a combo is the only option to make best use of this production power.
Good timing would be to finish mining of hill and goat with the end of our GA. But that might take too long, if we do not plan to go to war against India...

How about building a galley soon after getting MM (shoudl be soon) and carrying a single Impi to the battle field? That would be a cheap way to initiate our GA in decent future without warring with Gandhi.

So plans for Ivan's turnset:
- revolt (when?) - after building 1-2 Impis to clear barb camps?
- establish 2-3 emassies (India, Egypt, Turks)
- irrigate grassland to get Z to 5 Fpt (in monarchy)
- declare on Egypt block - on which civ? I'd suggest the weakest, they will sooner make peace again - maybe for some workers?

 

[Abegweit]

What is a Great Leader and what is an Army ? What are you guys talking about ? I have not seen any for ages in SGOTMs.

LOL.

However I would handbuild the FP. I would not rely on our "luck" with leaders. If we get one we can still think of what to do with it. We are not prepared to fight, so let us start the FP, so we get the benefits of it as soon as possible.

We have no need of the FP until we are ready to go to war. The OCN on a standard map is 20 so the only benefit would be a small decrease in corruption in city in which it is built.

 

[Paul#42]

Horse armies suck. Swords and MDI are good though.

I would like the movement 3 and the blitz. And we could build a heroic epic to encourage RNG to do some compensation for what it did to us last game. I never had a horses' army however
I don't have any leaders that early...

I do not see the advantage of a far away (India or Egypt) now.

Are you serious?

Unless we have a town like Entremont in SGotm10 - the town itself will be productive but even the closest neighbours are completely corrupt - right?

 

[Abegweit]

Had a thought
Once in monarchy (soon), we only need 1 extra food in Zimbabwe for 5fpt.
This will be achieved once the next grass tile (1NW of Ulundi) is irrigated meaning cow can be left mined (why irrigate cow then mine grass when irrigating grass does same outcome?).

Has an advantage in GA but your point is well-taken.

I suggest averaging anything less than 10spt means we either waste the 5fpt - 2 turn growth, or we waste the rax and only build settlers / workers.

Agree totally. This is high priority too.

 

[Abegweit]

There is no pricise formula for "Corruption" in the Alexman's article.

Yes, there is.

But in FP City itself must be a high corruption.

Wrong. It is capped at 30%.

I am writing it to explain that we can't have 2 independent Cores, as Civ3.

Not as vanilla, but we can have two productive regions

If you have rough idea, how close 2 cores must be give a clue.

Makes no difference. The key is the nunber of cities which are closer to the capital than the FP, not the distance between the two.

 

[Andronicus]

Ideal situation
Fabulous AI city poorly defended builds pyramids or ToA turn before we capture (sound familiar?) gaining a MGL with our elite capture of the city (la la land fantasizing).

Seriously, my intuition tells me Delhi too far away for significant corruption bonus on towns surrouding. It seems further away than the 2nd or 3rd ring examples that Wacken gave, although if rank kept to about 12-15 then it might be helping surrounding cities if they are rank 13-18 range. If this the case we dont want more than about 12 cities on our peninsula - certainly none on the desert to NW or NE. Filling in SE with yellow, orange and one more and SW with brown probably allows 1 or 2 more only ? grey dot and one north of western lake.