SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Andronicus]

Another thought I had
If we dow on nearby civ without finding others on our starting continent, will that allow us to attack civs one at a time as its allies should be unable to dow on a civ (us) they dont know?
This strat would involve limitted scouting of just our surrounds up to nearest civ (or 2 if we wish to take on 2) whilst building rax / archers for early archer rush. After taking the capital we could get a favourable peace, then meet next civ and repeat ( the civ attacked first would be little risk at this stage).

Other thoughts
- wait till civ builds first settler then attack (reduces number of units it can poprush)
- wait till all civs on starting continent are building wonders in capitals so we dont facce military production from their capitals (likely to have small number of cities as crowded start so not too many opponents building military)

I'm off home tomorrow morning so wont be able to check in again until Mon - good luck with the start.

 

[Abegweit]

Another thought I had
If we dow on nearby civ without finding others on our starting continent, will that allow us to attack civs one at a time as its allies should be unable to dow on a civ (us) they dont know?

No. Everyone will dow, which will give us contact.

Edit: in my test, I started in contact with Egypt and Greece, the two civs I had set it up for. After my DoW, I knew all the members of the alliance and was at war with all of them. I also started playing as Rome to see their contacts. They knew everyone but the Zulus. This implies that the tech pace will be fast and we will be behind. Forget tech trading for quite a while.

Other thoughts
- wait till civ builds first settler then attack (reduces number of units it can poprush)
- wait till all civs on starting continent are building wonders in capitals so we dont facce military production from their capitals (likely to have small number of cities as crowded start so not too many opponents building military)

I kinda like the latter idea.

 

[Abegweit]

Another thought: Gyathaar said that there are "several" locked alliances, which should mean "more than two". Given that this is so, we may well have more than one on our continent. Thus we need to know who is allied with whom before starting war - and perhaps before choosing our government. Alternating wars between alliances could certainly solve the WW issue.

 

[Abegweit]

In the end, I simply played my turns instead of stopping for discussion. There really isn't anything to discuss anyway.

The build order in Zimbabwe was scout-warrior-settler-granary with the settler finishing just as Z reached size three. Scouts should spend a bit of time exploring deadends before striking off to the real action. To that end, the first scout went southeast and the second went southwest. Then both struck off north. The first found a GH which popped for a warrior The second reached the end of our lands and saw yellow borders just across the waters to the northwest.

Some comments:

I didn't do the final MM on this turn. Some things need to change and are noted below.

My first observation is that we have a very defensible homeland and a fair amount of space to expand into. The only possible place the AI can be on our home continent is in the northeast and there are plenty of choke points on that peninsula. This leads me to think that Republic is the way to go. Still early to make that decision.

It looks like explorer curraghs are in order. Definitely we want to meet Yellow and whoever is part of his alliance.

The first scout should go back up that desert peninsula as it is not fully explored. He was going to go to the northern mountains but the conscript can do that. There's not likely to be anything there anyway. The second scout should stay where it is in case someone shows up. It is fortified and it shouldn't be. Move it northwest and sentry in case Yellow appears.

MM Ulindi to get a commerce instead of the goats. It doesn't need the coins anyway. Next I suggest putting it on wealth for two turns, followed by a worker timed to arrive as it grows to size two. Alternately, switch to a granary but it's clear to me that a worker is higher priority. The granary can come next.

Here is the world as we know it and a dotmap. Scout 2 and Yellow are just out of sight to the northwest. I'm not especially happy with the town placement but the need to put them on the coast sort of imposes awkward locations. If you have better ideas, I'm all ears. The priority cities are to the east. Red-blue-yellow-pink in that order. Some of these cities are candidates for the Light, if we decide to build it, and for the FP. We need to agree on the dotmap before Ivan starts his turns.




Turn log:

Turn 0 4000 BC
The scout moves south and then east. As expected, the water is salt The settler goes south-east and worker to the cow.

Turn 1 3950 BC
Zimbabwe founded. We start research on Alphabet, 100% and begin training a second scout. Alphabet is due in 50 turns but that will change as we get more commerce. To that end, the worker starts a road. We already have plenty of productive power to get a settler out by the time the city grows to size three so mine first would be pointless anyway. Zimbabwe is MM’ed from the goats to the cow. The scout goes east-east. Note, in case you didn’t know: always scout along the cardinal axes. Moving along diagonals is inefficient, so much so that it is usually better to stay on a cardinal than to move off it to climb a mountain.

Turn 2 3900 BC
Scout south-east, revealing a plains sheep

Turn 3 3850 BC
Scout south-south

Turn 4 3800 BC
The road finishes, dropping the time to Alpha to 35 turns. Worker starts a mine. Scout west-south.

Turn 5 3750 BC
Scout1 se-south.

Turn 6 3700 BC
Scout2 is trained and moves west-south-south. Z is MM’ed back to the goats and starts a warrior. Scout1 east, spotting a GH further east but continues south.

Turn 7 3650 BC

Z MM’ed back to the cow. S1 south-south, reaching the end of the earth. S2 south-south.

Turn 8 3600 BC
Zimbabwe grows. Luxes upped to 20%. Scout 2 west-north. Scout1 east-north

Turn 9 3550 BC
Z builds warrior, who fortifies, starts settler. Scout2 east-north. Scout1 north-north. Luxes back to 0.

Turn 10 3500 BC
Scout 1 ne, opening the GH we saw earlier. Get a warrior W1 north. Scout 2 north-west. Worker east-se

Inter-turn
I get the message about our treasury being dangerously low. The $&* warrior is nothing but a drain but I keep it anyway. It will eventually be somewhat useful.

Turn 11 3450 BC
S2 e-n; W1 n; S1 n-n

Turn 12 3400 BC
S1 n-w; W1 n; S2 n;

Turn 13 3350 BC
S2 n-n; S1 n-n; w1 w;
The water to the east is also salty; w1 w

Turn 14 3300 BC
Worker east; S2 w-w; S1 ne-n

Turn 15 3250 BC
Z builds settler, starts granary; worker roads; settler se-e; s2 n-n; s1 n-n; w1 w

Turn 16 3200 BC
W1 n; s1 s-s; s2 n-n; settler s-e;

Turn 17 3150 BC
Ulindi founded, starts warrior. This solves our economic problems but we are down to one gold.
S1 s-w; S2 e-n

Turn 18 3100 BC
Worker se-e; s1 w-w; s2 e-ne; w1 n;

Turn 19 3050 BC
Worker mines; s1 w; w1 w;

Turn 20 3000 BC
S2 moves north, spots yellow borders and fortifies. S1 se-se-e; w1 n

 

[I. Larkin]

Got save and look at sotuation: Do we want RCP3 or at C3C it does not matter?
It looks that it is fresh water lake at (-1, +4), so settle at (0,4) preferable.
But it is remote future.
Why Worker do mining? For better research road is better...
Do we need Granary that early? (I think yes, but it is not too late to swich to archer, say). What tile zimbabwe will use: BG or roaded GL?

 

[Andronicus]

Had a look at save - not what I was expecting!
Could it be possible we are alone on our starting continent?
I think we can put military on the back burner and focus on rex
Agree on granaries - we could be doing a semi (we already have 2 warriors) farmer's gambit
Food is king should be our motto at the moment.
Currently we can see only 2 food boni tiles (able to be improved to above 2fpt)- the cow in Z and the plains sheep east of Ulundi
We have 2 sources of fresh water - those boni tiles need irrigating
The plains sheep can be irrigated with 2 grass tiles bringing water north. An alternative is to place red dot 1S of sheep (shortening irrigation route to red dot and immed bringing 4 BGs into territory) or to place another town (?yellow) 1N of lake (shortens irrigation and no need for duct)

Cow can be irrigated either the long way through Ulundi wasting irrigating grass tiles, or by building a town (? temp) 2N of Z allowing irrigation to pass through the hill. The latter requires chopping plains forest and irrigating just the plains and desert if we build a town 1NE of lake.

Edit
To summarise - this is a food poor starting continent with no current need for military. Every bit of growth we can eek out of the region we should go for. Workers, granaries and settlers are the go. We need commerce to get out of despotism ASAP (which will alleviate the food shortage)

Agree on curraghs for exploration and contacts - this should speed research
We should soon know for sure if we share our starting continent - if desert peninsula leads to AI it should be easily defended. Would like to know for certain nothing more to our SW.

 

[Abegweit]

Got save and look at sotuation: Do we want RCP3 or at C3C it does not matter?

Doesn't matter in C3C. Check dotmap. I have tried to make CxxC spacing but terrain has forced some city placements to be CxC or CxxxC.

It looks that it is fresh water lake at (-1, +4), so settle at (0,4) preferable.

Please address the dot map. Which city should be moved?

Why Worker do mining? For better research road is better...

The idea is to build a granary after the worker...

Do we need Granary that early? (I think yes, but it is not too late to swich to archer, say). What tile zimbabwe will use: BG or roaded GL?

We definitely need the granary, and Z should use the goat. This is part of the reason why U, which is currently on the goat, needs its own bonus. And we don't want regular archers.

Had a look at save - not what I was expecting!
Could it be possible we are alone on our starting continent?
I think we can put military on the back burner and focus on rex
Agree on granaries - we could be doing a semi (we already have 2 warriors) farmer's gambit
Food is king should be our motto at the moment.

Agree totally on all points. The only possible AI would be to the northeast. There is nothing to the north, the southwest or the southeast. Southwest might not be clear from the save, but it was very obvious when I was down there. We need granaries in both Z and U. Irrigation to our food bonuses is required. Military is only needed for MP duty. A case, in fact, can be made for building a granary immediately in Ulindi. I didn't crunch the numbers since it is not too late to change from the warrior-wealth-worker-granary build I instinctively think to be best. That's to get the worker, not the warrior or the wealth.

 

[Andronicus]

Do we want RCP3 or at C3C it does not matter?

Doesnt matter in C3C

It looks that it is fresh water lake at (-1, +4), so settle at (0,4) preferable.

Are you referring to the NW lake? I suggest settling its NE edge to speed irrigation to cow.

Why Worker do mining? For better research road is better...

My opinion also, but I dislike stopping an activity once started given it will be required later on.

Do we need Granary that early? (I think yes, but it is not too late to swich to archer, say).

Agree with granary - we must emphasize food, no current need for archer or other military - the 2 warriors can mp after exploration.

What tile zimbabwe will use: BG or roaded GL?

Z req 45 shields for granary, grows in 2 turns using cow -> 6 shields + 2 on growth leaving 37
I suggest using BG with cow 3 turns (+9 food in bin, 12shields) then forest with cow 5 turns (+19food, remaining 25 shields) allowing granary immed prior to growth (can then use gems + cow for following turn to max commerce)
Ulundi is more problematic - if we had alpha then curragh would be ideal now. Unfortunately only options are granary or delay build - granary may not be such a bad idea given how food poor and shield rich we are (just realised reason for worker mining is 4th shield presumably corrupt but not 5th?) and no requirement for military yet. Should we find we have company it could be switched to rax then archers. granary would complete prior to growing size 3 and then we have 5 turn growth instead of 10 turn growth. Worth a thought...

Edit - OK cross post - we definitely need workers, but granary would be my first choice in Ulundi

 

[I. Larkin]

It is cartesian coordinats.
It looks that better to work on lambs. Granary will be almost ready at turn 8.
I think that I will spop Food rate at this turn.

 

[Abegweit]

we definitely need workers, but granary would be my first choice in Ulundi

OK, we agree on the need for workers and that U needs a granary. The dispute, such as it is, is about what should come first. I respect your instincts. OTOH, I think mine are pretty good too. Perhaps this means that we should crunch the numbers. As I am currently in BeerMode [tm], I won't do it now. You are welcome to post your insights before I stumble out tomorrow morning.

 

[Abegweit]

just realised reason for worker mining is 4th shield presumably corrupt but not 5th? and no requirement for military yet.

'zactly. And none in the capital.

Should we find we have company it could be switched to rax then archers.

Nope. The first priority still is REX. We can head 'em off at the pass.

 

[I. Larkin]

It looks, that my turns will be "ineventful". I will build granary at turn 9 and make food delay. Also, I will follow Abew's recomendation about scoting, welth, ets. I can play now, becouse no decision is important yet.
warrior-wealth-worker-granary How long wealth? Until BG finished?

 

[Abegweit]

I agree with most of what you say. However. There is a dispute about U's build order whichs needs to be resolved. Personally, I think both approaches are pretty good.

More importantly, where should our cities be? And in which order should they be built? I made a proposal. I haven't heard an alternate. So...Do u agree?

 

[Abegweit]

How long wealth? Until BG finished?

Until growth and the worker production lead to size 2. You cannot build a worker until you grow.

Edit: the objective is to get a worker as fast as possible. Time it that way. Other objective: to get a granary as fast as possible. Focus. Focus. Focus. Which objective gives us a better ROI on this particular map?

 

[I. Larkin]

the objective is to get a worker as fast as possible. Time it that way. Other objective: to get a granary as fast as possible. Focus. Focus. Focus. Which objective gives us a better ROI on this particular map?
What is ROI? Actually we must focus on research gpt. I will try to optimize it before play. Will play tonight. Go home right now.
Ivan

 

[Andronicus]

What is ROI? Actually we must focus on research gpt. I will try to optimize it before play. Will play tonight. Go home right now.
Ivan

ROI is return on investment
Do we gain more ultimately by building worker first or granary first?
Granary first will result in marginally quicker pop growth and better usage of shields (which we currently have spare of), worker first allows for earlier development of tiles which in turn benefits research, and production as well as getting settlers to their sites quicker. Soon it will also help growth - once we can start bring irrigation to our food boni tiles.

PS if we have to slow growth in Z we can use the gem mountain which produces more commerce (gems + cows -> +1fpt)

 

[Abegweit]

Our number one priority is growth. With more cities, more workers, more granaries we can get more military and more research. Our second priority is exploration. When we know more civs, research is cheaper and trade opportunities increase. Actual commerce is a distant third.

 

[Andronicus]

Re dot map

I like the idea of settling 2N of Z first so irrigation can be brought to cows ASAP. Worker tasks include a forest chop and 3 irrigations, then the 4th being the cow. This town could use gems to max commerce whilst providing warriors for MP duty (I'm still leaning towards monarchy) It could be disbanded by building a settler without growth once the irrigation is complete.
While mentioning cows - I note 2W, 1NW could share cows and is on the NW lake - other than sharing cows and being on fresh water its a pretty crappy location.
My 2nd site (for 4th city) would be red dot - I've thought about my suggestions for moving it S of sheep, but this doesnt provide as good other sites. Red dots's first build should be granary and worker priority to getting irrigation to sheep.

Edit - I have re-done a dotmap showing my preferences
I have moved bluedot 1N to allow use of the 4 tiles outlined in blue which would not be accessible until after cultural expansion on Abegweit's dotmap.
I have placed orange on the SE lake
Blackdot is a temp city as described above and could be shifted to 1W on the desert after irrigation complete
Brown ? and green ? require more scouting
Red outline indicates tiles in our territory after settling red, blue,yellow and orange to east, and black, pink and purple in west.
My order of settling would be red or black first (black gets my vote), then pink, blue, purple, yellow and orange
Light blue can definitely wait - perhaps brown +/- green before it
North of black remains in fog but doesnt look promising
South of orange probably corrupt and best for specialist farms

 

[Paul#42]

I'm not too enthusiastic about your playing of 20 turns without prompting us . I think at turn 14 it was a good time to talk to us about the next decisions. Looking at the map, I also had thought about getting more food by the second town, either by settling 2N to carry water to the cow or to settler 4E2S next to the sheep and get water there...

Or we could have decided on granary first, our capital back to size 1 is not too great for the start - although I see the need at that point to get more unit support by a second town...

It may have turned out to the same decision you took, however I would have appreciated to be asked...


If we decide on founding 2N of Z and build a settler there immediately, remember we only need size one to build it, so maybe a poprush at sinze 2. Although on the downside this poprush will carry unhappiness to our capital

Our first curragh I would build on either east or west coast (wherever we settle first), from Z or U it would take too long to get to interesting areas.

EDIT: Andro's dot map is okay for me.

 

[Abegweit]

@Andronicus
I don’t like the idea of a city 2N of Z at all. I understand the desire to get water to the cow but building a garbage city which cannot grow and then abandoning it is a huge cost for such a small gain. Z will be able to grow in three turns instead of four; in exchange we lose a shield. While clearly the extra growth is valuable, the cost is simply too high. Once we have four or five more cities down, we can consider using your trick. Not now. Personally, I’d forget the water until we’re out of despo and can start to work the mountains.

In any case, our first priority has to be the sheep location where irrigation doesn’t have the same sort of cost as it does in Z. Blue dot is next.

Speaking of which... your blue dot is much better. I definitely agree. However yellow should remain where I had it, one north of your location. Orange needs to move, perhaps w-sw. Being on the ocean is more important than being on the lake. Nw would give us both the sea and the lake. It's tight but it's probably best.

I’m OK with the idea of a granary in U. If we do this, the next build in Z should be a worker. We need a second one quite badly. I’d really rather get the worker first though. Then Z builds red dot. Seems to me that new cities are more important than speeding up the granary in U.


@Paul
All my decisions were clearcut. If they weren't, I would have stopped. The build order was right and so is the placement of Ulindi. What is the possible benefit of building at the sheep? As it is, the cities are connected. Both good tiles are currently being worked and we are about ready to get another good tile as the capital grows back. We are currently at plus 5 food and no other configuration could get us to this point. As Ivan said, the granary will finish nicely when the capital is nearing size three. Letting the capital grow to size four instead of building the settler would not only have been a serious drain on our finances, it would also have slowed our growth. A granary for a mined deer is not worth a city.