SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

Certainly keep Egyptian ones as I anticipate Cleo gone soon. If we send all knights to Egypt I think we can hold Otto towns too - just dont keep units there as they have ToA and flips will occur (especially dont keep any army in a flip risk city - note army in Leipzig safe this turn).

D'accord. Keep captured towns unless overwhelming forces threaten to take them back.

Had a thought - there is a 4/5horse by Heliopolis who can reach the O horse but it would then leave a wounded elite horse exposed to Chinese horse. I favour letting O horse take Thebes then retake with 2 MDI sitting outside.

How about making peace with JICK now? That would allow to use the 4/5-horse for that strike.
Are JICK and AERO at war?
Maybe we sign peace plus gold and alliance (if necessary) with India or Japan for Invention?
Or rather gpt for peace and alliance?

EDIT: spelling

 

[markh]

Well another silly thing. I made the English deal, invaded American waters and nothing happened. Then in the IBT the Vikings took Houston and we have no access to American waters any more. How do we get out of that deal now without losing our rep ?

 

[Andronicus]

Well another silly thing. I made the English deal, invaded American waters and nothing happened. Then in the IBT the Vikings took Houston and we have no access to American waters any more. How do we get out of that deal now without losing our rep ?

Sounds like it only counts us in foreign waters at end of turn.

Are we paying them 8gpt?
We could send a galley around to other side of continent to enter American waters there, might take all of 20 turns though.

 

[markh]

I got it for 7 gpt, but still quite an expensive worker. Damn. I will send a galley around, but probably it will take at least 20 turns.

 

[markh]

0) 250AD : make the England deal
move galley into American waters towards Houston

IBT : Japan drops a settler combo at our west coast
Otto takes Thebes
Houston is taken by the Vikings and there are no American waters anymore to trigger alliance
Russia approaches Elephantine with an archer and 3 MDIs

Z : knight -> knight

1) 260AD : MDI kills spear in Giza and promotes elite
MDI kills spear in Giza and take the city

our trebs hit nothing at Nagoya
lose a horse at Nagoya
MDI kills the spear in Nagoya and promotes elite

lose an MDI on the attack on Thebes
MDI kills that damn spear in Thebes
2nd MDI army takes back Thebes

1st MDI army kills a Russian pike

elite horse kills an Arab horse
vet horse loses to reg Arab horse

horse kills the Japanese elite warrior covering the dropped settler and promotes elite himself

IBT : Arab horse suicides on our elite horse
Otto horse kills our horse
Germany drops a settler combo in the West

U : knight -> knight

2) 270AD : eHorse kills German spear covering the settler and 2 more slaves
MDI kills Otto horse
MDI retreats Otto horse
1st MDI army kills Otto spear and horse
eHorse kills Indian horse
eHorse kills Indian horse
2nd MDI army kills an Otto horse

IBT : a lot AI troop moving , but no fights

several knights complete and order some more

3) 280AD : eMDI kills Indian spear on the way to Hangchow
3rd MDI army kills a German archer at Leipzig
ehorse kills spear in Alexandria
eMDI kills the second spear in Alexandria and the city is ours. With it we capture 5 workers and we have spices. How nice !
1st MDI army kills two spears in Elephantine
MDI kills Otto horse and promotes elite
eHorse kills Otto horse

IBT : a Japanese and a German galley suicide on two of ours
Bapedi : rax -> knight
Mpondo : knight -> knight

4) 290AD : 3rd MDI army kills two German archers
1st MDI kills a spear in Elephantine and goes yellow -> rests
ehorse kills Otto horse at Thebes
ehorse kills Otto horse at Thebes
eMDI kills Chinese archer at Thebes
ehorse kills Otto horse at Thebes
ehorse kills Chinese archer at Thebes
MDI kills Chinese archer at Thebes
knight kills Chinese archer at Thebes
eMDI kills Chinese archer at Alexandria
ehorse kills Chinese archer at Alexandria
2nd MDI army kills Otto spear at Thebes

two silly galleys block our luxury supply lines. Mm to avoid riots.

IBT : a Chinese longbow kills an eMDI approaching Hangchow
Germany and England sign peace.
Scandinavia and England sign peace
France and England sign peace

Z : knight -> knight
Umf : knight -> knight

5) 300AD : 3rd MDI army kills a German archer and horse
horse kills longbow at Hangchow
ehorse kills Otto horse at Thebes
ehorse kills Otto horse at Thebes
eMDI kills Otto archer at Thebes
ehorse kills Otto archer at Thebes
ehorse kills Otto spear at Thebes
lose a knight to a Chinese spear
knight kills that pesky spear
eMDI kills Indian archer at Giza

The luxury supply is reestablished.

IBT : Korea drops a settler combo at the preferred desert location in the West

6) 310AD : knight kills a spear in Hangchow
horse kills longbow in Hangchow
horse kills spear in Hangchow and the city is ours.
lose an ehorse to a redlined spear at Alxandria
MDI kills that silly spear
knight kills the Korean spear covering the settler and promotes elite
knight kills Russian pike at Thebes
lose an ehorse to a warrior at the attack on Anjar

IBT : golden age ends
A number of Japanese swords and MDIs enter the scene at Alexandria
Isandl riots because of the end of golden age
The resistance in Giza ends

Tugela : knight -> knight

7) 320AD : found New Hlobane and we have ivory
1st MDI army kills two spears in Elephantine
MDI kills warrior in Anjar and autorazes the city
3rd MDI army kills a German and a French archer at Leipzig
knight kills Chinese archer at Alexandria
MDI kills Chinese atcher at Alexandria

IBT : Germany takes back Leipzig
two units are dropped at Heliopolis
1 Japanese MDi and 4 swords approach Alexandria
3 Russian MDIs and 1 archer approach Alexandria

we get our first AC in Thebes

Ulundi : knight -> knight

8) 330AD : I make peace with JICKS, 50 gold to China to seal the deal
1st MDI army kills a spear and an archer in Elephantine
knight kills a Russian MDI at Giza
eMDI kills Russian MDI at Giza
eMDI kills Russian MDI at Giza
3rd MDI army retakes Leipzig killing two archers
AC loses to reg archer at Heliopolis
lose another eMDI to that archer

IBT : the remaining Russian archer suicides at a MDI outside of Alexandria

Zim : knight -> knight
Helio : worker -> worker
Umtata : settler -> settler
Iba : knight -> knight

9) 340AD : 3rd MDI kills a French archer at Leipzig
ehorse retreats on that *&%%$§" archer at Heliopolis
eknight kills that &%$/&%%/$§/§$%§/$/$&%$/§ archer
2nd MDI army kills a spear in Elephantine
ehorse kills Otto longbiw at New Hlobane

IBT : knight kills a Otto longbow on defense at Thebes unintentionally

Hlobane : knight -> knight

10) 350AD : horse retreats attacking El Armana
horse retreats attacking El Armana
knight kills spear in El Armana and promotes elite
knight loses to spear in El Armana
knight kills spear in El Armana and the city is ours
3rd MDI army kills a German archer at Leipzig
ehorse kills Arab horse at Thebes
ehorse kills Arab spear at New Hlobane

I do not know how many elite victories DID NOT generate a leader. That is not fair.

 

[Andronicus]

Quick comments without loking at save

Some bad rng there - looks like Ivan and Paul used up all our leader luck, lets hope Abegweit does better than you and I.

Sounds like you had a lot of units coming in to Egypt area which has slowed our push. What we need is an alliance to get JICK and AERO back at war. Are there still Indian troops in the area? If so an alliance with them should trigger mpp on their return through Arab lands. Distracting Russia's troops to the south would make it much easier to take Egypt and Ottoman region.

Now that we are at peace with JICK we need to block those 4 tiles on northern desert peninsula that AI might like to found towns on. edit - looking at save 4 slaves are irrigating a desertr tile outside our area which could block AI landings.

 

[Paul#42]

25 elite wins and no leader :thumbdown

You guys suck!

I can't believe you need so many chances to cast some magic!

Shall I play another turnset in between to enforce some luck?

Quite some traffic there, I'm glad there's very few pikes and MDIs...

I'll post some more sophisticated comments tomorrow...

 

[Andronicus]

Um, why do we still have 4 vet horses and 1 * horse with 746g sitting unused in bank?
- an extra 5 knights would be most useful
- 6 elite horses should continue to be used at every opportunity for leader fishing.

 

[markh]

The *horse I wanted to upgrade as soon as it loses HPs and had to heal. Unfortunately it is a really elite warrior who just kills without losing HPs and I needed every single unit in Egypt. Where are the vet horses ? MPs at home ? I did not upgrade them, yet as I thought we should have some security at home in case a galley appears and drops units at home. And upgrading them now would be a little too expensive for MP duties. I admit it could have been I was a little too cautious.

 

[markh]

25 elite wins and no leader :thumbdown

You guys suck!

I can't believe you need so many chances to cast some magic!

Shall I play another turnset in between to enforce some luck?

Quite some traffic there, I'm glad there's very few pikes and MDIs...

I'll post some more sophisticated comments tomorrow...

Yes, I know. You know what ? I promoted the units for guys like you to take all the leaders that I was supposed to get. It is always like that.
You do not know how annoyed I was yesterday when playing and this damn window did not pop up and then this monster archer eating units like flies.

 

[Paul#42]

The *horse I wanted to upgrade as soon as it loses HPs and had to heal. Unfortunately it is a really elite warrior who just kills without losing HPs and I needed every single unit in Egypt.

Every victory with a *horse wastes an opportunity to promote a vet knight...

enemy ships can only enter our core territory from two choke points. If we monitor galleys entering there and accompany them by 1-2 archers, it should be sufficient. We need to take some risks now. 2 Impis there should be enough to block landed enemy units till we rushed attackes close by.

When did China and Ottomans acquire chivalry?
Korea seems to already know education, right?

We need to know the Iron sources over there... send an Impi for exploration?

Tientsin should swith to a settler or even a worker to disband it. I don't think there is another settler combo in that sea or does the Korean galley carry one?

We need to press hard on Ottomans (ally JICK) to finish that campaign and focus on Germany.

 

[Abegweit]

Cleo is almost gone With a bit of luck, she goes to her reward next turn.

Agreed that we need to get our troops out of the homeland. They serve no purpose where they are. It's easy enough to shadow the occasional ship which might appear.

I note that the following civs have iron: French, Vikings, Russians, Japanese. Cutting the Russian supply is high priority and I expect to send an army that way soonest.

The JICK crew is willing to go for an alliance against CORA. I think we should sign a few ROPs with the JICKs too. We can get a far amount of money for it and need a better map. I'd like to know where the Jap iron is.

I'll wait til tomorrow morning to let folks make additional comments.

General plan:
Upgrade horses
Sign alliances and ROPs.
Finish off Cleo
Start beating on Otto
Pillage Cathy till she bleeds.

On the other continent, I'd like to either abandon Leipzig or open a second front. My preference is for the second option.

 

[Abegweit]

When did China and Ottomans acquire chivalry?

No diff since neither country has iron.

I think we should try to get Invention out of the diplomacy session. I don't want the AI getting to guns before we have invention. I'm still not fully sure of the mechanics of this, so correct me if this doesn't work.

Peace to Cathy: Invention for ROP + Chivalry + 7gpt. Note that she has both iron and horses, so this is rather dangerous. It's worth it, I think. If we leave Chivalry out of the deal, she wants 51 gpt.

Ally India vs Ottos and Arabs for a tech (Eng?) + ROP
Ally Korea vs Ottos and Arabs for two spare luxes + ROP
ROP to China for 2gpt + 51g
Est embassy with Jap. Get another ROP

Unfortunately the JICKs are last in the turn order, so the Ottos and Arabs will get first chance to attack. That's why I would prefer to go for the Chivalry deal instead of straight up gpt.

However it appears to me that the wars will start with the Korean longbow north of Alexandria moving onto Arab soil.

 

[Andronicus]

Peace to Cathy: Invention for ROP + Chivalry + 7gpt. Note that she has both iron and horses, so this is rather dangerous. It's worth it, I think. If we leave Chivalry out of the deal, she wants 51 gpt.

Ally India vs Ottos and Arabs for a tech (Eng?) + ROP
Ally Korea vs Ottos and Arabs for two spare luxes + ROP
ROP to China for 2gpt + 51g
Est embassy with Jap. Get another ROP

Unfortunately the JICKs are last in the turn order, so the Ottos and Arabs will get first chance to attack. That's why I would prefer to go for the Chivalry deal instead of straight up gpt.

However it appears to me that the wars will start with the Korean longbow north of Alexandria moving onto Arab soil.

I'm not certain, but I dont think this will work.
As soon as we make peace with Cathy we wil be at peace with entire AERO for 20 turns unless we decide now is the time to trash our rep and immed dow again after getting all we can in peace treaty(in which case we should give only gpt not chivalry)
JICK will not ally v AERO unless we are at war with them so we would need to ally them first before peace with Cathy breaking that alliance as soon as war between the alliances is confirmed.
Not sure how long the alliances would remain at war if we have been trecherous.

 

[Abegweit]

I'm not certain, but I dont think this will work.
As soon as we make peace with Cathy we wil be at peace with entire AERO for 20 turns unless we decide now is the time to trash our rep and immed dow again after getting all we can in peace treaty(in which case we should give only gpt not chivalry)

I thought it would only make peace with Cathy. Are you sure? As I said, I am not entirely sure how this works. It would be wrong to trash our rep before guns. I don't care much once we know where the salt is.

 

[Andronicus]

I thought it would only make peace with Cathy. Are you sure? As I said, I am not entirely sure how this works. It would be wrong to trash our rep before guns. I don't care much once we know where the salt is.

No peace with one gives peace with all that alliance

 

[Abegweit]

OK. Bad idea then. We need to kill Cleo and pound Osman's butt into the sand.

What about the half of the deal? Alliances and ROPs with most or all of JICK. Say we bring them into war against the Arabs and Ottos. Later we get Invention for peace from Cathy after beating her up a bit. Does this hurt our rep?

 

[Andronicus]

OK. Bad idea then. We need to kill Cleo and pound Osman's butt into the sand.

What about the half of the deal? Alliances and ROPs with most or all of JICK. Say we bring them into war against the Arabs and Ottos. Later we get Invention for peace from Cathy after beating her up a bit. Does this hurt our rep?

Peace with Cathy at later date would only hurt our rep if we have allied v Russia, not if ally v Otto or Arabs or Egypt (I'm pretty sure, but not 100% certain). I suspect the point will be moot as someone not allied with us from the JICK alliance can make peace at any time with a member of AERO and both alliances will be at peace.

I recommend
ally JICK v AERO (Korea will v Arab or Otto for 2 lux, India v 2 for Engineering) whilst eliminating Cleo and then pushing on to Ottomen (ToA will give us much needed culture boost but we will have to wait for Otto elimination until it is completely flip-safe - this may prove difficult unless Korea can retake the Otto city Pusan near Seoul)

edit - just had a thought about another trick to get cheap tech (ie Invention) out of AI
If we are allied with say Korean v Arabs -> Korea invades Arabia sparking AERO dow v Korea, then someone ? Russia invades Korea sparking JICK dow on Russia. Once we feel peace treaty may be imminent (perhaps after 5 or 6 turns war - buy Invention from China with gpt tying it into MA v one of AERO (this should be cheap as already at war - currently expensive). As soon as any JICK member signs peace with an AERO member our MA with China would be cancelled as would our gpt payments - but we would keep Invention and our rep intact since it would be China compulsorarily making peace that broke the alliance. How many turns we would have to pay the gpt wouuld be uncertain as would the possibility of peace before we made the MA - a thought anyway.
Worse possible outcome - we pay full 20 turns gpt to China, but ensure JICK and AERO at continued war. Any early cessation to war (which I would be near certain will occur) reduces the cost we pay for Invention.

 

[Abegweit]

I recommend...

Yeah. This was what I was thinking too. I want alliance with both of these and ROPs with everyone.

 

[Andronicus]

I have done some detailed looking at city MM - will post in next 20 min after i've typed it out. Short story - we can sig boost our knight production, we need to change our worker tasks.

What I propose utilises every feasible shield producing tile in our core except for 2 mgrass in Zimbabwe's radius

End result
Zimbabwe 18spt -> 4 turn knights
Ibab, Bap 10spt -> 7 turn knights
Ulundi, Mpondo, Isand 8spt -> 9 turn knights
Umf, Ngome 7spt -> 10 turn knights
Tugela, Swazi 6spt -> 12 turn knights
Hlobane 5spt -> 14 turn knights
This could be improved by
1) FP (in Thebes) with next leader?
2) WLTKD - eg Tugela would get with 2 mp, increasing lux slider would be too expensive -mp's more effective.

Proposed changes
Zimbawe - loses a mgrass, stealing mhill from Ibab - (currently has spare food)
Ibab - loses mhill to Z, uses avail mmount instead (currently 1 surplus food, no change in shields)
Bapedi - steals iplains from Umfolozi (1) and Intombe (2) to bring upto 10spt
Umfolozi - loses iplains to Bap, steals one back from Intombe - no net change
Intombe - no rax so loses the 3 iplains above -> loss of treb production, no big loss.
Tugela, Nagome - no change unless give 2 extra mp to Tugela -> WLTKD and can then get 7spt switching mBG and mGrass with Ngome (currently last shield is wasted for both)
Umfolozi - works 2 mplains and 4 mgrass
Mpondo - works mplain, 3mgrass, msheep, mdesert
Hlobane - works mplains, 5 mgrass (wastes 1food)
Isand works 4 mgrasss, 2 mplains
Swazi - works miron and 5 mgrass
Umtata works 2 iplains, 2 mplains

Zunguin, Isepezi and New Zim work 2 igrass each and support 2 taxmen as specialist farms

Worker tasks to produce above.
11 tiles need working / reworking
m grass 1NE of Ulundi
m 3 plains, sheep and grass Mpondo - Hlobane region
i BG 2SW of Swazi (for specialist farm)
m iron mountain
m 2 plains near Umtata, 1 plains near Isand

Currently workers are roading and mining mountains I cannot forsee ever being worked. Having a plan of what tiles can be best worked and how ensures those workers are prioritised to useful tasks.

edit - no offence meant Abegweit - I know you can MM these towns at least as well as me, but I felt we needed a plan put down so we can all work in the same direction rather than one person asigning workers to one project then next changing focus.