SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

I noticed that too. There are a lot of bad numbers. MM is the best part of my game so I didn't feel the need to comment on this.

On a related subject, should we be building ducts or settlers?

 

[Andronicus]

I noticed that too. There are a lot of bad numbers. MM is the best part of my game so I didn't feel the need to comment on this.

On a related subject, should we be building ducts or settlers?

My thoughts are to focus on getting out as many knights as possible for conquoring. In my above suggestion can only have more production with duct in Zimbabwe. Otherwise only extra tiles are coastal. Other options I considered but not convinced about are a culture building in Ngome to bring in iron mountain. I recommend minimal infrastructure. Getting ToA would solve this one

Settlers - I liked Paul's suggestion of FP in Thebes with 4 turn SF to fill up the land.

 

[Abegweit]

I'll go through your suggestions in detail before starting. I imagine I'll agree in totality. I did look at Z and, yes, you are right about that one for sure.

I also agree about minimal infra and the idea of an FP in Thebes. However, should I manage to get a leader I will certainly stop for input from the team.

 

[Abegweit]

Pre-turn

Per Andro’s suggestions, not all of which can be implemented this turn
Zimbabwe 18spt -> 4 turn knights, due in three
Ibab 10spt -> 7 turn knights, due in 6
Bap 10spt -> 7 turn knights, due in 3, short rush next turn to get in 2

Mpondo 8spt -> 9 turn knights, due in 3
Ulundi 6 spt -> settler, due in 2
Isand 7 spt, knight due in 4, mm in 2 turns to get in 3
Ngome 7spt -> 10 turn knights, due in 1, switch to water for more commerce
Umf 7spt -> 10 turn knights, due in 5, switch to water for more food and commerce
Tugela 6spt -> 12 turn knights
Swazi 6spt -> 12 turn knights, will require work, currently at four
Hlobane 5spt -> 14 turn knights, needs growth to meet this. Will short-rush at size 6.

Switch Int to work all water tiles. Fire tax collector to allow for growth -> same number of coins. Switch to settler, due in 18.
Zun iron-> taxman
New Z water-> taxman
Giza -> taxman
New U forest-> taxman
Isi plains-> taxman
Umf hill ->lake
Amat desert-> taxman
New Hlo plains->fp

Wake all sleepyheads at home and send off to the wars. A couple of knights will hang around for protection.

ROP + Eng -> Ghandi for alliance against Osman, Cathy and Abu
ROP + 2luxes -> Wan for alliance against Osman, and Abu + 1g
ROP + 1lux -> Mao for 72g + 8gpt
Establish embassy with Japs. This reveals the iron but no deal seems reasonable.

With the tile changes and the Chinese deal, we go from 53gpt to 75gpt.

Horse@Ul to Mpo and upgrade
Stop miners @Tientsin, switch to settler and short-rush
Upgrade horse @Umf

I’m a bit worried about all the troops in flip-vulnerable cities. Wake MDI and Impi in Alex

[Inter-turn]
Russia declares on Korea
Egypt declares on Korea
Lose 2 elite horses to Otto longbows

Ngome knight -> knight

Egypt declares on Indians
Japan moves 9 troops in vicinity of El-Amarna

Turn 1 360AD
MM Isa to get knight in two, U to grow getting settler in 1
Short-rush knight in Bap -> due in 1
Elite* horse to New Z and upgrade

5/5 Knight vs 3/3 LongBow -> 5/5 knight[1-0]
5/5 Horse vs 3/3 LongBow -> 2/5 horse[2-0]
4/4 MDI vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 MDI[3-0]

Battle of Pi-Ramses
1st army vs rPike -> 10/13army [4-0]
1st army vs rSpearn -> 9/13army [5-0]
City falls and Cleo with it

Trade ROP + Chivalry to Toku for alliance against the Arabs +2g. Hopefully that will change his mind about attacking us but he only goes from furious to annoyed. I throw in a gift of spices and he goes to Polite.

After thinking about it for a while, I decide to move the 3rd Army into Leipzig and attack one of two archers threatening the city despite 3.5% flip risk. The alternative would have been to abandon it. Two knights are sent to help. We shouldn't have this problem again
9/13 MDI Army vs vArcher -> 9/13 Army [6-0]

4/4 knight vs 1/3 longbow -> 4/4 knight [7-0]

Upgrade warrior @ Mpo
Switch New Ul, Zun, New Zlo and Isi to settlers
Umf back to hills, knight due in 4
Short-rush Tug, knight due in 5
Short-rush Int, settler due in 10

[inter-turn]
Japs head north. Whew!
Abu wants to talk. I tell him to buzz off.

Resistance ends in Thebes
Bap knight->knight
Resistance ends in Alexandria
Swa knight->knight
Resistance ends in El-Armana
Resistance ends in Nagoya
New Z treb->settler

Koreans, Japs start knights templar.

Leipzig didn't flip We'll not take these chances any more.

Turn 2 370AD
9/13 3rd MDI army vs 3/4 archer -> 8/13 Army [8-0]

Battle for Elephantine
13/14 1st MDI army vs 3/3 spear -> 13/14 army [9-0]
13/14 1st MDI army vs 3/3 spear -> 13/14 army [10-0]
City falls, no resisters
5/5 Knight vs 3/3 longbow -> 5/5 knight [11-0] and I stop…

 

[Abegweit]

It had been my plan to rush the barracks in Thebes this turn but the possibility of rushing the FP instead complicates matters. Does anyone know when the next AC is due?

Are we sure that this city can do 4-turn settlers? It is currrently doing +13fpt and 2spt (1 corrupted). I think that it's possible but it would require a courthouse too. According to CAII, Thebes is the best place for our FP and it would give an additional 16 gpt. It would have some effect on waste too.

 

[markh]

Great that somebody can create leaders. The next AC should be due next IBT. I got one in the IBT before turn 8, so it should be due now.

My vote goes to FP in Thebes for the leader.

 

[Abegweit]

If I rush it this turn, will the AC come before or after the barracks? I agree about the FP. Andro has already said he likes the idea and I'm pretty sure Paul will too. Shall I play on?

Edit: 3 votes in favour of FP (and almost certainly 4) so I'll play on. Rush the barracks this turn and the FP next. We'll see whether the AC is a vet or not.

 

[Andronicus]

Yes definitely FP in Thebes is my vote
I think if rush rax the AC will be vet, but I'm not certain
Nice going - you do realise that FP will change shield production and require rejigging the MM .

Thought on duct in Zimbabwe (I dont think it is worthwhile in any other town)
Puts spt up to 20 by utilising the 2 unused mgrass. Can then shortrush via settler when 20 shields in bin -> 30, giving 3 turn knights at cost of 10 rushed shields. Takes 6 turns to build duct, meaning breakeven point for knight production is in 18 turns, thereafter we are ahead.
Cost of 1gpt for duct, 10gpt (is it 3g per shield rushed?) for shortrushing, and save 1gpt unit support, extra 2gpt in extra commerce - net cost 8gpt for extra knight every 12 turns (96 gold per knight) - not certain on some of those numbers, but it seems worthwhile to me provided we are disciplined enough to remember the shortrush every third turn.

 

[Paul#42]

Hey great news about the leader and Cleo's fall!!
We finally gain some ground...

I still favor the fp in Thebes but no need to hurry, rushing rax first should be okay. I guess we already have some shields invested that would be lost the other way, right?

Please remember not to acquire another town after rushing the fp - or make sure its price is not rising by the next town founded or acquired...

Have fun with the extended MMing after building fp



go for Osman and Otto

 

[Abegweit]

Turn 2 370AD (cont)

Ping spear with treb -> 2/3 spear
4/4 MDI vs 2/3 spear -> 4/4 MDI and captured slaves [12-0]

Rush barracks @Thebes

[inter-turn]
AC born in Thebes; it’s a reg
Z Knight -> knight
Ulu settler->knight
Isa knight -> knight
Mpo knight -> knight
New Ulu settler -> settler
New Mem impi -> settler

Turn 3 380AD
Hurry FP @ Thebes
Upgrade two horses @ New Mem
5/5 horse vs 3/3 lbow -> 1/5 horse [13-0]
sell barracks in New Mem
5/5 MDI vs 3/3 spear -> 2/5 MDI [14-0] and two slaves
4/4 MDI vs 3/3 lbow -> 4/5 MDI [15-0]
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 lbow -> 4/4 knight [16-0]
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 horse -> 4/4 knight [17-0]
4/4 AC vs 4/4 MDI -> 3/4 MDI [17-1]
5/5 horse vs 3/4 MDI -> 2/4 MDI and retreat
4/4 Knight vs 2/4 MDI -> 2/4 Knight [18-1]

[inter-turn]
Thebes FP -> granary
Leipzig flips
Resistance in Hangchow ends
Zunguin settler -> settler
English declare war because our boat finally enter American waters last turn
Russia declares on Japs
Ottos declare on Japs
Chinese start Templar

Turn 4 390AD
New Isa founded -> settler

Battle of Avdin
4/4 knight vs 3/3 spear -> 2/4 knight [19-1]
13/14 1st army vs 3/3 spear -> 12/14 army and the city falls [20-1]

Otto pult vs 3/3 spear -> 3/3 spear
13/13 2nd army vs 4/4 MDI -> 13/13 army [21-1]
4/5 MDI vs 3/3 lbow -> 4/5 MDI [22-1]
Otto cat pings 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear
4/4 knight vs 2/3 spear -> 5/5 knight [23-1]
4/4 knight vs 3/3 lbow -> 4/4 knight [24-1]

short-rush Bapedi

[inter-turn]
Umf knight -> knight
Ottos start Knights Templar

Turn 5 400 AD
Battle of Edrine
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear and retreat
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 2/5 knight [25-1]
12/14 army vs 2/3 spear -> 12/14 army and the city is taken [26-1]
4/4 knight vs 3/3 spear -> 3/3 spear and retreat
4/4 knight vs 3/3 spear -> 1/4 knight [27-1]
4/4 knight vs 4/4 archer -> 3/4 knight [28-1]
11/13 army vs 4/4 MDI -> 8/13 Army [29-1]
4/4 knight vs 3/3 Sword -> 3/5 Knight [30-1]
4/4 knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 4/5 Knight [31-1]

Short-rush Bap, Isa
4/4 horse vs 3/4 knight -> 4/5 knight [32-1]
Bap knight ->knight
Tug knight -> knight
Iba knight -> knight
French start KT
China declares on Russia
New Intombe founded -> wealth

Turn 6 410 AD

Leipzig
Treb vs 4/4 MDI -> 3/4 MDI
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Sword -> 1/4 knight [33-1]
4.4 Knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 3/4 MDI [33-2]
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 3/4 Knight [34-2]
4/5 Knight vs 3/4 MDI -> 1/5 Knight [35-2]
4/5 Knight vs 2/3 Sword -> 4/5 Knight [36-2]

Battle for Konya
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 1/3 spear [36-3]
5/5 Knight* vs 3/3 spear -> 5/5 Knight [37-3]
5/5 horse vs 1/3 spear -> 5/5 horse and the city is ours [38-3]

Edrine
5/5 Knight vs 3/3 lbow -> 5/5 Kinght [39-3]

Short-rush Thebes, Hlo

[inter-turn]
French land north of Ama
Z knight -> knight
Edrine flips
Resistance ends in Konya
Ama treb ->settler
Vikings start Leo, KT
Indians start KT

Turn 7
Near Ama
Treb vs 3/3 spear -> 3/3 spear
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 1/4 Knight

Near Leipzig
Treb vs 5/5 sword -> 4/5 sword
11/14 Army vs 5/5 sword -> 7/14 army
4/4 Knight vs 4/5 sword -> 2/4 knight
4/5 Knight vs 4/4 MDI -> 2/5 knight
3/4 knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 3/5 knight

Edrine
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 3/5 knight
5/5 Knight vs 3/3 spear -> 4/5 knight and the city is taken

Initial assault on Istanbul
13/13 army vs 3/3 spear -> 11/13 army
12/14 army vs 3/3 spear -> 11/14 army

Near Konya
5/5 horse vs 3/3 lbow -> 5/5 horse [49-3]

[inter-turn]
Ottos land near Ama
French start Leo’s
Koreans start KT
AC produced

Turn 8 430 AD
Leipzig
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Knight and the city falls
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 MDI -> 3/4 Knight

Istanbul
Treb vs 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear
Treb vs 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear
Cat vs 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear
11/14 Army vs 3/3 spear -> 10/14 army
10/14 Army vs 2/3 spear -> 10/14 army
11/13 Army vs 2/3 spear -> 11/13 army
11/13 Army vs 2/3 spear -> 10/13 army and the city falls [55-3]

Reduce lux rate to 0
Short-rush Bap

[inter-turn]
Helio worker -> worker
Bap knight -> knight
English star KT
Kyoto builds Sun-Tzu

Near Istanbul
Treb vs 3/3 lbow -> 2/3lbow
5/5 Knight vs 3/3 lbow -> 5/5 knight
4/5 Knight vs 3/3 lbow -> 3/5 knight
5/5 horse vs 2/3 lbow -> 5/5 horse


Leipzig
Treb vs 3/3 spear -> 2/3 spear
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 2/3 MDI and retreat
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 5/5 Knight
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 MDI -> 1/4 Knight
4/4 Knight vs 3/4 MDI -> 3/4 MDI
11/14 army vs 3/4 MDI -> 11/14 Army
4/5 Knight vs 3/3 Archer -> 4/5 Knight
11/14 Army vs 3/3 horse -> 11/14 Army
3/5 Knight vs 3/3 horse ->1/5 knight
3/5 Knight vs 4/4 horse -> 2/5 knight and another leader! Build army.
3/4 Knight vs 3/4 archer -> 3/4 archer and retreat
3/4 Knight vs 3/4 archer -> 3/4 knight

New Mpo founded

Uskadar
10/13 Army vs 3/3 spear -> 10/13 army
10/14 Army vs 3/3 spear -> 5/14 army

Bursa
4/4 MDI vs 3/3 spear -> 3/4 MDI
5/5 knight* vs 3/3 spear -> 1/5 knight and the city is ours

Near Seoul
4/4 Impi vs 3/3 lbow -> 2/5 impi [71-3]

Short-rush Umt

[inter-turn]
3/3 lbow vs 4/4 knight -> 3/4 knight
3/3 MDI vs 4/4 knight -> 3/4 knight [73-3]

Thebes granary -> settler
Istanbul flips
Isa knight -> knight
Ngo knight -> knight
Tientsin settler -> abandon

English start and finish KT
Vikings, French, Russians start Leo’s
Chinese start Sistine, Leo’s

Leipzig
11/14 army vs 4/4 MDI -> 8/11 army
treb vs. 4/4 archer -> 3/4 archer
5/5 knight vs 3/3 spear -> 3/5 knight
4/5 knight vs 4/4 archer -> 2/5 knight
3/4 knight vs 4/4 horse -> 2/4 knight
2/4 knight vs 4/4 horse -> 2/4 knight
2/4 knight vs 3/3 archer -> 3/3 archer and retreat.

Near Ama
Treb vs 2/3 spear -> 1/3 spear
4/4 Knight vs. 1/3 spear -> 4/4 knight and 2 slaves

Istanbul
5/5 knight vs 3/3 spear -> 2/4 spear
5/14 army vs 2/4 spear -> 5/14 army

Uskadar
10/13 army vs 3/3 spear -> 10/13 army
10/13 army vs 3/3 spear -> 7/13 army and the city falls [82-4]

I'm stopping here. There is plenty more movement to perform and all the MM. An attack against Damascus is certainly possible.

Due to some mildly unlucky RNG (and my move of using the treb against an archer instead of the spear), the situation at Leipzig is pretty serious. If we can hang on for one more round, we'll be impregnable since four units will come back up to full strength. My problem on this front all along has been that the soldiers have never had a chance to rest... as you can see.

The alternatives seem to be either to abandon the city, which will lose the treb and maybe the knight or to wait it out hoping for good RNG and no flip. I definitely would rush the barracks in New Mpondo either way

It may be time to pull some dirty deal. We need to get Invention and Korea has a lot of money.

The Turkish front is going well. The workers in the home country should head north.

 

[Andronicus]

Sounds like lots of action around Leipzig
Do we now have a MDI and a knight army there?
Are English at war with FGS alliance? (I thought the idea was to buy MA with English v Germans or French the turn before enter American waters. A war between the 2 factions might reduce the number of units being sent to Leipzig.
If not done we could probably get peace with America then ally AE faction against FGS, but this would likely cost us gpt. Once these alliances are at war we could scrap our rep with fake Korean deal you propose, then dow America or England to get out of those gpt payments. Hopefully by then a number of GFS units would have turned around to face the attack from AE alliance.
Will have at look save later to see if this feasible.

edit - nice kill ratio - sounding like AW game

 

[Abegweit]

Sounds like lots of action around Leipzig
Do we now have a MDI and a knight army there?

Yes. Lots of action. There were times when I could see 15 units and we didn't even have a city. The reason why it took me so long to re-take Leipzig was that I knew I would be blown out of the water if I tried. It's quite a bit better now. There are only two units threatening the city and five more in sight. The knight army only has one member right now, the elite that generated it.

Are English at war with FGS alliance? (I thought the idea was to buy MA with English v Germans or French the turn before enter American waters.

If so, I misunderstood. Actually I only realised that we had entered American waters because the war fired off

A war between the 2 factions might reduce the number of units being sent to Leipzig. If not done we could probably get peace with America then ally AE faction against FGS, but this would likely cost us gpt.

The problem is that almost all the units are FGS (mostly French actually, with some German). I feel confident that we can turn the tide but this next round will be critical. Every unit in Leipzig is redlined but one ( at 2/5 ). There is a 3/3 and a 3/4 archer which can attack this turn.

I should know this but... will the resting units re-gain their HPs before the attack. As I recall, they will.

 

[Andronicus]

The problem is that almost all the units are FGS (mostly French actually, with some German). I feel confident that we can turn the tide but this next round will be critical. Every unit in Leipzig is redlined but one ( at 2/5 ). There is a 3/3 and a 3/4 archer which can attack this turn.

I should know this but... will the resting units re-gain their HPs before the attack. As I recall, they will.

I dont think they regain hit points until after the IT attack.

I note we could move army to Lepzig and load up 2 1/4 knights into it giving it 4hp - this would have better chance at surviving LB attacks (could be better to take them out), but risks leaving army at mercy of flip risk or bad rng v LBs.

America will accept peace for 100g - whilst this may seem expensive, I think we should be able to get it all back plus their 61g if we then give them mono for alliance v FGS (Do we have an embassy? - If not we have to buy one once in peace to get an alliance). Dragging FGS units to fight AE will help our progress to take over Germany which we should do now we have 2 armies there. England already has mono (and chivalry) so not too bad giving America mono - it lacks iron, as do all on that continent except France. England having built KT should help her hold her territory.

Speaking of France - it would be nice to get her before guns.

 

[Abegweit]

I note we could move army to Lepzig and load up 2 1/4 knights into it giving it 4hp - this would have better chance at surviving LB attacks (could be better to take them out), but risks leaving army at mercy of flip risk or bad rng v LBs.

They are archers, not LBs. Not that this is important since attack is the way to go. According to BE, we would have 98.5% chance of winning (3/4% chance of losing) the first attack. This is not exactly right since his programme does not understand C3C armies but it should be pretty close. It would appear that the flip risk is the major danger.

Edit: one idea that I like is to load up the army, attack the 3/3 archer and retreat to New Mpondo assuming we win. Would the 3/4 archer then retreat? I think it might. In any case, its odds against the 2/5 knight defender are not great, especially with the treb freeshot.

Edit:

nice kill ratio - sounding like AW game

Yep. By my count, 21 elite victories and 2 leaders. Standard stuff. Next leader, esp if we get it on the home continent, should go towards the Pentagon.

 

[Paul#42]

Great ratio! And finally, leader luck is back.

Did you guys check out that C3C Multi-Team Demogame that is about to start? Sounds like fun. Do you consider joining it?
Who's up?

 

[Andronicus]

Roster
Abegweit - just played
Paul - your UP mate
Andronicus - on deck
mark

Thought for settler in our east - he could go grab the iron from India .

I think we need to remain at war with AERO until they are no more - otherwise flip risk remains - any peace treaty should only be to gain towns (I note that none are on offer) with immed recommencement of hostilities, The race is on.

The timing of JICK war requires more thought. I am torn between
option A - all new knights to Germany to rapidly eliminate Germany and get France before muketeers. This would leave existing army in AERO lands to finish off Ottomen, Arabs and Russians before attacking JICK.
option B - holding operation in Germany ( poss send another 4 or 5 to whittle back Germans but wait to take on France. Send bulk of new units to strike JICK, first taking out Japans iron before she can get samuri. Again the current units in AEERO wouuld be left to finish the job there.
option C - send half each way. This would still be probably be enough to quickly dispose of Germany and start progress on France, whilst extra units on our continent would best be used speeding up AERO demise so can start on JICK ASAP - hopefully before too many sams and WEs.

Reminder that getting MA Americans v FGS alliance following paying for peace and building embassy would result in many Scandinavian and possible French troops turning around to face what the AI is likely to perceive as the bigger threat. Germany will still send units because we are in her area, but with her pitiful number of towns she should fold rapidly. Given we are at war with America and England I am willing to bet there will be American and English stacks traversing towards Liepzig. A sudden dow from them due to our MA will spark a change in French and Vikings.

 

[Andronicus]

Hold that thought, I've got a better idea

How about we leave Cathy alone (she is the only AI on our continent other than Japan with iron) so she remains fairly strong.
We quickly take care of Ottomen in the north +/- Arabs (they are weak and a low priority).
Meanwhile an MDI army is sent ASAP to Japans iron and parks there and the knight army to Pusan to raze it (to prevent flips, raze so we dont have to defend against JICK)
Once army on iron we dow JICK getting all the money we can, get peace with Cathy and MA v JICK
This would leave us with Russians as buffer against Chinese, whilst we take out first INdians (to remove threat of WEs), then Japan (with no iron, they wont produce Sams). This would be much easier situation than taking out MDI then face JICK alone, and would allow us to tackle JICK sooner not having to wait until we have subdued Russians. Koreans are not an issue and Chinese with no iron can help nullify Russians. If peace is takeen between factions we buy MA again - it may be expensive but I feel it would be money well spent to rapidly take out our continent.

On the other continent I suggest peace with America, then MA v FGS taking out Germans, then on to France. After that we may want to switch sides to remove England allying with Vikings.

I would hope that we steamrole progressively through the AI from here on in. The trick will be to distract the AI we are attacking with alliances, meanwhile maximising our knight production to provide us with overwhelming forces - armies will be a key here - I await Paul's 3 MGLs this turnset .

 

[Paul#42]

nice. Got it. Have just looked briefly at the save via CivAssist2, so detailed analysis to follow.

I feel we could use a short break for discussion here although this might change when I had a closer look

Actually I could use a small break to complete exhausting Cotm 29 in time...

I'd plan to play on Wednesday.
If you guys feel everything is clearcut, Andro and I could also swap...

 

[Andronicus]

No problem with taking some time - I think there are some important tactical decisions to be made. What I see as the best plan to date may have flaws someone else sees or perhaps someone comes up with a better one.

 

[Abegweit]

Problem with leaving Cathy alone is that our troops will be badly out of position when it comes time to get back to her. I had a lot of this kind of problem during my turns because our troops were in eastern Egypt and the homelands while the action was in Turkey. I don't think she'll be all that hard anyway. We do have two armies in the area and the trebs are finally catching up with them.

As for the Jap iron, use the impis to take it out. There are 3 or 4 exploring the area right now.