SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Abegweit]

I agree.

Declare war and then we'll see what happens next.

See X-Nuts revolted at the same time as us and drew a shorter anarchy

 

[I. Larkin]

I agree.

Declare war and then we'll see what happens next.

See X-Nuts revolted at the same time as us and drew a shorter anarchy

No, I after "declare" it will be too late to change something. I mean before. (Though it looks redicules)

 

[I. Larkin]

Re: FP and dotmap. I think order may be Yellow, brown (-7,-2), and orange (-3,-11). I will calculate FP effect and Palace Jump effect.
Thebes Jump looks better. It also help to avoid flips. Egy has super culture.
But settle north is not good anyway. I recomend Temple and Harbor in Babedy to get 4 more tiles, granary is OK too.

 

[markh]

I am against GA soon.

I do not understand all this talk about war now. We want to cripple one of 12 AIs that soon ? I see no use in that. We need to grow and expand. We need 75% to dominate the world and win the game and are talking about taking ONE capitol of an AI. For what use ? We even do not have units to hold and reinforce.

I would want a GA as soon as we can build knights. For that we need the core to be prepared to the optimum.

In this game I see the winner getting armies. They will be the game breaker.

 

[Andronicus]

My preference is not to shift palace, but to cont rex-ing the remainder of our productive area including 2-3 towns to our north and another 3 towns south of orange - yellow (moving orange 1NW). These later towns can use irrigated grass for science farms - relatively more valuable in monarchy than republic.

I think once we get into conquoring mode we will need to keep cities otherwise the AI will just resettle. This will stuff up plans for leaving an area vacant to get the rank down around FP with a distant capital.

 

[Andronicus]

See X-Nuts revolted at the same time as us and drew a shorter anarchy

Not necessarily, all we can say at this time is they lost 4 turns of culture in their last turnset to our 5 - they may still have anarchy turns remaining.
Psycho bunnies lost 1 turn of culture pre550BC and another 5 the following turn

Note tao shows loss of 1 turn culture pre 1550BC .
This suggests they revolted 11 or 12 turns before us.

 

[Paul#42]

I did not manage to play yet.

I can play this evening on my business trip but might not be able to submit before thursday morning. But I will sure find occasion and opportunity to post progress and questions here so I guess it shoudl be fine with you.

Mark's not in favor of having a GA soon, how do the others feel?

Should we trade monarchy if we can get two or all three techs to get out of the AT? I guess the Ai should be close to researching some other techs which monarchy might be one of. Right now I could sell it to Korea for lots of money (even our 20gpt ), so they should not be close... - but the others I cannot test right now (they have nothing they could refuse to offer ).

 

[Abegweit]

Mono should, at the very minimum, get us out of the AE. Don't sell it for less.

As I've said before, I'm against GA until we finish our REX. 15-20 turns from now maybe.

 

[Paul#42]

As I've said before, I'm against GA until we finish our REX. 15-20 turns from now maybe.

open point about that is the termination of our REX. With the discussion on FP / Place move I had the impression, that our REX would be over within 10 turns and three new towns (yello, orange, brown). So that's why I was discussing our GA.

But this has changed and we will settle our rings 1 and 2 to the north and east also, right? So it's still settlers out of Z at sizes 2-4 till end of REX?

If so I will delay further Impis for later (except 1-2 for MP and barbs) and hurry horses instead - to fight off the Indios without using an Impi... That will hinder any invasion if we want to avoid leaving our horses exposed...
Of course we can still climb that desert dam (recon provided by galley)...

 

[I. Larkin]

Re: FP, "REX" look at tables
City Corr % FP Isa FP Or %
{0, 0} {3} {2} {2}
{1, -3} {12} {10} {10}
{-2, 3} {17} {14} {14}
{4, -4} {24} {21} {21}
{3, -7} {39} {24} {32}
{-1, -7} {31} {12} {22}
{-2, 6} {31} {26} {26}
{1, -10} {48} {27} {27}
{-3, -11}{55} {31} {21}
{-7, -2} {39} {32} {32}
Total:10{299} {199} {207}
FP in Isa will save 100% of total corruption, but it mainly in marginal Cities.
As a result we will save 6-7 spt and 10-12 gpt. I think until Aqueducts 200 Sch FP is too expensive. However FP is the most effective use for GL. And FP in Isa looks as the best location. (For example Orange dot give a bit less improuvement).
As I told already I am very much against of settling to the North.
Grey, Green,Pink and Blue dots will increase Corruption rapidly (up to 500%) but Cities itself will be realy low pruductive. Also they reduce opportunities for Palace Jump, that I belive soonner or Later should be.
Table 2: 14 Cities.
City Corr % FP Isa
{0, 0} {3} {2}
{1, -3} {14} {11}
{-2, 3} {22} {18}
{4, -4} {31} {25}
{3, -7} {52} {32}
{-1, -7} {41} {18}
{-2, 6} {41} {32}
{1, -10} {61} {36}
{-3, -11}{68} {40}
{-7, -2} {52} {40}
{1, 4} {22} {18}
{1, 7} {41} {32}
{5, 4} {41} {32}
{3, 0} {14} {11}
Total:14 {503} {347}
In Modeling I relay on Abegweit's post. To be sure, where this constants come rom?
As I understand Capital have R= 1, and others in order of distance. I did not sort
Cities with the same distance puting to them "avarage" Rang.

 

[Abegweit]

open point about that is the termination of our REX. With the discussion on FP / Place move I had the impression, that our REX would be over within 10 turns and three new towns (yello, orange, brown). So that's why I was discussing our GA.

Which post is the dot map in? I agree, though, three new towns plus a sufficient number of workers and our cities should be a decent size (four or so). [/quote]

But this has changed and we will settle our rings 1 and 2 to the north and east also, right? So it's still settlers out of Z at sizes 2-4 till end of REX?

There's no point in settling garbage towns. I believe that another three are planned in our dot map (six total) and they come after our GA. Nothing after that until we get to India.

If so I will delay further Impis for later (except 1-2 for MP and barbs) and hurry horses instead - to fight off the Indios without using an Impi... That will hinder any invasion if we want to avoid leaving our horses exposed... Of course we can still climb that desert dam (recon provided by galley)...

We need both. I'm not worried about an invasion. It's going to be pathetic.

Let's put the FP discussion aside. We have decided to switch Isa to military. That's enough for now. If we get a leader we can discuss where to put the FP. I'm still thinking Indo-Japan but we'll see.

 

[Paul#42]

Re: FP, "REX" look at tables
As I told already I am very much against of settling to the North.
Grey, Green,Pink and Blue dots will increase Corruption rapidly (up to 500%) but Cities itself will be realy low pruductive. Also they reduce opportunities for Palace Jump, that I belive soonner or Later should be.

Thanks for analysis.

Table 2: 14 Cities.

It would have been easier if you had inserted the city names... But I will figure it out anyway...

More important than the corruption however would be an analysis of the resulting production. That grey dot town eg will be decent productive working two irrigated grasslands and four hills for 11-12 shields at size 6. After a palace jump it would be close to worthless, of course. But as that might take some time (as well as building / rushing FP in Isa), we could very well settle the town and disband it once it's value becomes negative.

 

[Abegweit]

In Modeling I relay on Abegweit's post. To be sure, where this constants come? As I understand Capital have R= 1, and others in order of distance. I did not sort Cities with the same distance puting to them "avarage" Rang.

Constants come from the map. For example, the OCN on a standard emperor map is 16.

Re dot-map:

Orange should be nw, as discussed before. Gold hill is a good science farm. White shouldn't exist. I agree that grey, green and blue are marginal. Pink is OK.

Only orange, yellow and pink should be settled before GA. The others perhaps not at all.

 

[Abegweit]

After a palace jump it would be close to worthless, of course. But as that might take some time (as well as building / rushing FP in Isa), we could very well settle the town and disband it once it's value becomes negative.

A palace jump is unthinkable. In order to have two cores there has to be a large zone around the capital where there are no cities at all. This is because rank corruption will make the FP region useless otherwise.

If we jump the palace, we would therefore have to leave the continent uninhabited. This means no farms, which we will need badly, especially because we are in Monarchy.

An FP rushed out in the boonies works, though, because there no reason to put cities between the core and a distance of maybe 15 or more.

 

[Paul#42]

Only orange, yellow and pink should be settled before GA. The others perhaps not at all.

You mean brown (-7,-2) instead of pink (1,4), don't you? Pink is close but not too prductive.

 

[I. Larkin]

As you see, we gain 140% corruption due to Pink dot. With FP only 30%. So I think Pink have to be after FP. Why Orange ->NW? We can do both, Gold and Orange. What the location of Gold?

City Position Corr % FP Isa
Z {0, 0} {3.125} {2.127659574468085}
U {1, -3} {12.25} {10.25531914893617}
B {-2, 3} {18.9375} {15.446808510638299}
M {4, -4} {27.625} {22.638297872340424}
H {3, -7} {42.5625} {26.085106382978722}
Isa {-1, -7} {34.3125} {13.829787234042554}
Int {-2, 6} {34.3125} {27.82978723404256}
Ye {1, -10} {51.245} {29.27659574468085}
Ora {-3, -11} {58.375} {33.40425531914894}
Br {-7, -2} {42.5625} {34.08510638297872}
Pink {1, 4} {18.9375} {15.446808510638299}
Total 11 {344.25} {230.42553191489364}

 

[I. Larkin]

1) I did not manage to play yet.

2) I can play this evening on my business trip but might not be able to submit before thursday morning. But I will sure find occasion and opportunity to post progress and questions here so I guess it shoudl be fine with you.

3) Mark's not in favor of having a GA soon, how do the others feel?

4) Should we trade monarchy if we can get two or all three techs to get out of the AT? I guess the Ai should be close to researching some other techs which monarchy might be one of.
5)Right now I could sell it to Korea for lots of money (even our 20gpt ), so they should not be close... - but the others I cannot test right now (they have nothing they could refuse to offer ).

1) Could you put in our forum Auto of 975 BC? And we may discuss declare to India or not. Don't forget to rush Galley.
2) OK, but first turn is the most important.
3) Yes, as well as "normal war"
4) Egypt and Osman had Poly long ago (25 turns?) Very probably they research Monarchy. Egypt had 80% research, and still did not output any. I think Monarchy from their will come soon. But we can't test when.
5) I think Constru, CoL, + 20 gpt is normal price for Monarchy. In this case we may stay out of conflict, that a bit "pre-mature". Better to use this trick for more expensive Tech then Currency.

 

[I. Larkin]

I am against GA soon.

I do not understand all this talk about war now. We want to cripple one of 12 AIs that soon ? I see no use in that. We need to grow and expand. We need 75% to dominate the world and win the game and are talking about taking ONE capitol of an AI. For what use ? We even do not have units to hold and reinforce.

I would want a GA as soon as we can build knights. For that we need the core to be prepared to the optimum.

In this game I see the winner getting armies. They will be the game breaker.

The idea of war was to grig MPP of Korea-India and not to pay gpt. Probably to do that just send Galley (Curagh?) might be enough. I never had MPP and Galleys. . However I had "crazy idea" that India defend by just one spear. (Embassy at 1250 BC). Now I see that it is not the case: Delhi grow from last turn. Therefore war plans have to be reconsidered next turn. I did not meant GA at all.

 

[Abegweit]

The idea of war was to grig MPP of Korea-India and not to pay gpt. Probably to do that just send Galley (Curagh?) might be enough. I never had MPP and Galleys. . However I had "crazy idea" that India defend by just one spear. (Embassy at 1250 BC). Now I see that it is not the case: Delhi grow from last turn. Therefore war plans have to be reconsidered next turn. I did not meant GA at all.

The idea of war was to grig MPP of Korea-India and not to pay gpt. Correct. The objective is still the same. If we could have gotten Delhi, that would have been gravy. Hit the spear.

 

[I. Larkin]

A palace jump is unthinkable. In order to have two cores there has to be a large zone around the capital where there are no cities at all. This is because rank corruption will make the FP region useless otherwise.

If we jump the palace, we would therefore have to leave the continent uninhabited. This means no farms, which we will need badly, especially because we are in Monarchy.

An FP rushed out in the boonies works, though, because there no reason to put cities between the core and a distance of maybe 15 or more.

Well, it is true. But in our home productive area is small. We need second core somewhere.
Question is will this core with Palace or FP?
Unfortunatly we know littel about other lands.
But in general, at the end of neck of dessert (14, 0) or (15, 0) may be a good place for Palace. We may settle very rear in half - circle of size 14. Three Cities, say.