SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Paul#42]

Yes, fun it was. But I was running out of time because right now I'm on a business trip. That's why I did not MM as good as possible. But at this size of empire it's also exhausting. So don't be annoyed to find not everything in perfect shape

Korea is still "alive", maybe we should raze some coastal town to encourage a landing. The russian ship was staying for several turns on the same spot when Cathy saw no place to found her new empire...

 

[Andronicus]

We are now at 41% territory, so Paul gained us 11% in last 10 turns. With a further 34% required it may be only 30 turns (3 turnsets) till this game is over.
We have a lot of money in the bank eady for upgades - do we want to speed the horse builds with some short rushes? We would need to pillage 5 salts - 2 on northern desert peninsula, 2 in Ex-Egypt and 1 east of Hangchow. We could then shortrush impis in our 10spt towns to produce horses following turn.
Zimb is doing 2 turn horses, Ibab, Ulundi, Mpondo, Bapedi,Ngome can all do 10spt, hence 2 turn horses with the short rush. This will cost 5*40g every 2 turns, then 6*60g o upgrade = 560g every 2 turns. Currently making 174gpt so this will gradually erode our savings. A quick MM of corrupt towns moving citizens working 1 or 0 fpt tiles (eg Damascus, Najran, Nara etc) to taxmen plus all taxmen in flp risk towns (eg Pyongang) will give us 225gpt, I'm sure we can squeeze more out.
Japan is only civ wth sig gold - perhaps a false peace treaty - they will give peace plus all 256g for 19gpt, 18gpt if throw in rop. Gives us a turn to heal up the damaged units and reposition for assault on China - just be aware AI will break the treaty if it sees a juicy target. I would suggest we need 1 of the armies on our home continent in the Hangchow region to advance there.

I dont like the look of thngs near Hastings - that stack of 5 zerks threatens our redlined 5th knights army. I would suggest peace with France getting 37g whlst giving 2gpt (it wont last 20 turns), would take the heat off here having only to deal with England and America. Again allowing our units to heal up then push through England and America (perhaps even ally Vikes v America?) before turning on French and Germans again. To do this it woud be important not to leave open cities tempting Joan to break the treaty.

AI cities left
Korea 0 (boat N,NE of Pi-Ramesses)
China 8
India 5
Japan 6
Germany 2
France 10
England 5
America 8
Vikings 15 (inc 4 on 2 small islands)

edit - flip risks
Only France and America still have stronger culture than us so this is decreasing significantly
Current biggest risks are Nottingham 3.2% to French, Pyong 2.6, Hastings 2.3 and Nampo 2.1 - all others are 0.1. We have very low risk with Chinese and English who have lower culture than us.

Reminder re Thebes - it hasnt been rejigged this turn yet for growth in 2 - it is still needed as a 4 turn SF

 

[markh]

I got it.

Will have a closer look tomorrow.

 

[Paul#42]

We have a lot of money in the bank eady for upgades - do we want to speed the horse builds with some short rushes? We would need to pillage 5 salts - 2 on northern desert peninsula, 2 in Ex-Egypt and 1 east of Hangchow. We could then shortrush impis in our 10spt towns to produce horses following turn.

I see no benefit from salt, so pillage it. Shortrushing in 5-6spt-towns I consider more effective than in 10+spt-towns (if money is scarce).

Making peace with both JIC(K) and GFV for 1-3 turns could help, maybe we should take the second German town (iirc) and raze it? rop where possible, Alliance against England and America also.

The reg warrior is on his way to the iron hill. He should have jumped on board, we need the ship in Egypt anyway to pick up settlers. I know I should have set up that (dis)connect szenario properly, apologies

 

[Abegweit]

Great progress Our territory graph looks great.

Agreed totally that the situation at Hastings is dire and that we should go for peace. Furthermore, this city should rush a barracks. We need one badly over there and Hastings is nicely placed for weary warriors coming from either side of the choke.

On the issue of short-rushes, I would rather short-rush settlers than horses. We will need them to fill in the other continent, This would probably happen somewhere in the middle of my turns to be available in the middle of the next set. We are going to need them. As such, building up a cash reserve is a Good Thing. We will burn it very quickly. Short-rushing horses is not very efficient anyway. 40 gold to save one turn is simply too expensive.

I would hate to see us struggling to come up with the last 5% of the limit because of lack of money.

 

[Andronicus]

This competition looks like being very tight
Klarius's team has just submitted a save with approx 1650 tiles 20 turns from where we are now, and Newbie team (who are anything but) are similarly positioned 6 turns later. I suspect these teams will both finish in their next turnset so this may be the last data we see from them. We would need to finish within next 25-30 turns I suspect to beat these team's dates. Of course some teams less progressed may still be in the hunt, in particular I expect Wotan to put in a strong finish.
I think there is no need to rush these turnsets, we should strive to get maximal value from each.

 

[markh]

I think there is no need to rush these turnsets, we should strive to get maximal value from each.

Yes, I agree. I have to take a very close look tonight. As I am the weakest in mm in this team I will need some extra time. I also have to check the war academy on short rushing as I almost never use it and do not really know the mechanics of it. I found an article in the war academy and will study it in my lunch break later on.

 

[Andronicus]

The mechanics of short rushing a horse with an impi in a 10spt town involves:
1st turn town builds 10 shields, then rush impi (10shields fo 40g), switch production back to horse
2nd turn builds remaining 10 shields for horse.
Horse then transported ASAP to rax town on other continent and upgraded to knight for 60g.

 

[Paul#42]

Do we want all horses to go to France? Are our forces in India strong enough?

The barracks I would not build in Hastings, but in a town founded nearby with the settler aboard a galley. Its flip risk is too high to waste rush-gold.

Good luck and take your time. haste is a bad advisor

short rushing: I prefer to shortrush in 5-spt-towns.

 

[Abegweit]

Hastings is only 2% flip risk and that will go down considerably when the cultural pressure on its borders is eliminated. Furthermore, there is no obvious place to build a new city near it. At least, not yet. I would build the barracks there.

All new troops should go to the other continent ATM. This is because it is so much further away. Later, if needed, we can shore up the situation at home.

To short-rush:

1) Never rush from zero shields. Always get at least one in the box. This applies to full rushes as well, such as Hastings' barracks.
2) To short-rush a horse, choose a city with 5 or 10 spt. As Paul says, 5 is to be preferred.
3) Start by building an impi.
4) After one or more turns, rush-build the impi
6) Switch to a horse
7) Let it complete normally. A 5spt town will take two turns. The 10spt one will complete immediately.

I normally set the build queue to the thing I want (horses). Then, after I have bought all the things I really want, like the barracks in Hastings, I'll go through and see if there are any short-rushes available. You can do this at the same time as you micro-manage your cities. If there aren't any, let the money accumulate. There will always be an opportunity next turn.

Note that upgrades to knights always take priority over short-rushes if you don't have enough shields for both. It costs less shields and the knights are what we want anyhow.

 

[Andronicus]

Note that upgrades to knights always take priority over short-rushes if you don't have enough shields for both. It costs less shields and the knights are what we want anyhow.

Agree 100%
60g to get 40 shields (1.5g per shield with Leo's) worth upgrade of horse (30 shields) to knight (70 shields) v 4g per shield in rush builds (unless rush from zero shelds when 80g per shield).
The upgrades are less than half the cost of the rushed builds

Regarding logistics, I recommend calculating how many horses you can produce each turn and ensure we have suffcient galleys to transport across to other continent - we will also want to transport settlers there and it slows down our campaign if we have a queue waiting to board galleys to get across.

 

[markh]

Could it be Team klarius and Team Newbie have finished ? On the main page Gyathaar is the last poster for Team Newbie and he usually posts only to congratulate on the finish. According to the territory graph both are at the same level.

 

[Gyathaar]

Could it be Team klarius and Team Newbie have finished ? On the main page Gyathaar is the last poster for Team Newbie and he usually posts only to congratulate on the finish. According to the territory graph both are at the same level.

I also sometimes post to answer questions..

 

[markh]

I knew you would answer like this.

 

[Gyathaar]

I knew you would answer like this.

 

[Abegweit]

Could it be Team klarius and Team Newbie have finished ? On the main page Gyathaar is the last poster for Team Newbie and he usually posts only to congratulate on the finish. According to the territory graph both are at the same level.

I don't think so. It's just a coincidence.

We currently have 41% of the dom limit with 1053 so that means that the limit is roughly 1926 tiles. Interestingly CivAassist now has decided that it knows the exact limit - 1904 tiles. If CA is right, we actually have 41.47% so that's within the margin of error. I assume therefore that it is.

Both Klarius and Newbie have about 1650 total tiles, so about 1575 domination tiles. They still have 325 tiles to go. More or less.

 

[Andronicus]

Well I've already stated my opinion that their latest saves are the one before their victories, so either way the point is moot

Regarding getting our victory ASAP
Further consderation brings me to the opinion we should not short rush horses at all, rather make all military builds horses to maximise the money spent on upgrading to knights (this is agreeing with Abegweit's comment in post 765 above

I would rather short-rush settlers than horses

).
This means we would not need to disconnect salt.
Builds already more than 30 should progress to knights, otherwise the ideal numbers for horse are 5,6, 10 and 15 spt. 8 and 11 are not too wasteful, and 7 can be shortrushed to worker after 1 turn for just 12g saving a turn.

 

[Andronicus]

Both Klarius and Newbie have about 1650 total tiles, so about 1575 domination tiles. They still have 325 tiles to go. More or less.

And that is easily obtainable in the final turnset (remember the final save does not appear)

 

[Abegweit]

CA also gives exact numbers for all the civs, so it's possible to figure out exactly what we have to do to get to the goalpost. The civs on our home continent have 450 tiles. By my count 415 of these are dom tiles. We're not likely to get all of these, but we should come close. I would say that there are about 80 more unoccupied as well. Say about 490 total.

1904 - 490 - 1053 = 361 or more than 30 cities.

Germany + England + America = 284 and Scandinavia is another 130. It will require just about every tile on the mainland because we will be missing plenty of coast.

 

[markh]

Had a first look at the save. Units are quite exhausted as Paul mentioned. not much I could do at first. I am considering a false peace with JICK to heal and regroup forces for the final assault.

Hastings then I would gift to Korea or someone of JICK. Hopeless situation there.