SGOTM 11 - Team Newbie

[PaperBeetle]

Got the save.
Playing my first interturn... surprise!

 

[archphoenix]

final it comes, but why not come earlier?

 

[PaperBeetle]

I'm up to 1200bc, and I think it's time for a team brainstorm with regards to the diplomatic situation.

As posted above, Japan is now at war with us, but has not yet bought in anyone else, nor have we triggered their MPP. We have a scout heading in their direction in case we would like to do that, but he will take five or six turns to get there and pull a pillage.
Meanwhile, India just got peace with the whole Middle-eastern bloc. Without embassies all round, it is hard to say where this peace deal originated; I think the message is that, with these locked MPPs, peace flows faster than war. I presume that the only current wars are Japan versus us, and the Middle-eastern bloc versus us.

So should we go for peace with the Middle-eastern bloc? Should we wait a bit and ask Japan for peace? Or should we pull some gpt trick on the Oriental bloc? Or some other plan?
Here are our trading options:

We have no ongoing trades.
Construction is still almost priceless (the most expensive thing we can buy is peace with Russia + Laws + Mapping + Polytheism, which would cost Construction + 130g.)
Currency will be finished in 12-15 turns.
For temporary gpt deals, we currently max out at 36gpt - nearly enough to buy Poly and Mapping from Korea, for example.

So, any thoughts? There are so many options, I don't know which ones are good and which are bad. But I like the idea of 'doing a Yojimbo' of course.
Oh, our military is looking pretty good by the way. We are average to each of the guys we are at war with, and strong to the other three. I think we need to kill some things soon.

 

[archphoenix]

I think we should gain some essential benifit when we make deal, peace or war.
get worker(slave). is an essential benifit I think;
we will buy it from Egpty using Philosophy;
I will give no advice on war, only throw some tech anticipation.
we need only currency to enter MA, if we trade all current techs;
seen the AI's tech, I am almost sure Egpty,india, china is researching currency or construction, and maybe someone will finish currency before us. if we need enter MA a bit more turns early, we should leave the possibility for trading currency from them turns later.
also, we need only value construction to these 3 AI, reduce our some chore work.

 

[socralynnek]

It seems indeed a difficult situation. The ones wth MapMaking might send some nits soon. But I don't know whether we gain something significant by signing peace.

But if we sign peace with the Oriental block then we could buy MM and Poly from Korea for gpt, then trigger the MPP and then sign Russia or Arabia against Japan or Korea.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Okay, I'll finish up tonight. I'm currently planning to keep heading towards Japan with the scout - hope he doesn't get barbed or caught by Japanese axes. When I get there, I'll buy any techs and cash that I can, and raise the war.
In the meantime, I'll keep on the lookout for any advantageous peace deal with the Middle-east that doesn't involve losing the Construction monopoly.

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

I'm fine with PaperBeetle's plan to make war with everyone, but are we actually mobilisng our troops. Have we actually killed anything? And doesn't anyone think we ought to start actually capturing cities and stuff?

 

[socralynnek]

We'd only gain something via capturing if there is a wonder around. I guess we don't have enough units yet to capture and hold some towns and defend our core cause when we attack someone we have a few civs against us.

I'm fine with your plan PaperBeetle!

 

[Bucephalus]

And doesn't anyone think we ought to start actually capturing cities and stuff?

We are in no position to do so.

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

We are in no position to do so.

I'm sure PaperBeetle noted that we were strong or average to everyone. That sounds like a reason to go to war to me. I know that if we go to war with one civ we are at war with at least four civs but let's not get too cautious now people...Afterall how often do troops from another civ actually mount much of an attack in their ally's territory? They'll probably send an axe or two. I just think that the big guns will be going to war about now so we should at least be preparing for an attack. All I see is starting phoney wars. Let's crank it up!

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm sure PaperBeetle noted that we were strong or average to everyone. That sounds like a reason to go to war to me. I know that if we go to war with one civ we are at war with at least four civs but let's not get too cautious now people...Afterall how often do troops from another civ actually mount much of an attack in their ally's territory? They'll probably send an axe or two. I just think that the big guns will be going to war about now so we should at least be preparing for an attack. All I see is starting phoney wars. Let's crank it up!

Well, we have 4 warriors & 5 archers; the warriors are not invasion material IMO, and are currently acting as MP's, while 3 of the archers are on 'barb' patrol. Then, the logistics make it pointless for now, as the nearest viable target is the Arab capital, some 20 moves away.

Should we really be building Impi in Zimbabwe? Horses or swords would make much better use of the shields; neither do we want to risk a despotic GA.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Actually, as of this breathing point, we have [size=+1]1 sword[/size]! That's enough to go to war with in my book.
So yes I am moving troops in the direction of the chokepoint, and I have a worker and a slave preparing to build the road to the main continent, but we may find the quickest route to invasion will be galleys across the Central Sea.

But here's the puzzling thing... as Taxpayer says, the big guns will be going to war now. In fact, I am sure they must have done so already - I don't see what else would justify the big jumps in territory that the top teams are showing. (I've shifted my obsession from the score graph to the territory graph see . By the end of my turnset, we will basically be in last place ).
But anyway, I don't see how we could have got more than two or three archers to an AI capital by now, even if we had tried to do so. Everything is just so far away... so what have we missed?

Impis: no, we don't really want them very much, but I've finished the one socralynnek started, and set the aqueduct town to build more. Why? They get to replace the archers doing barb patrol. I think it's quite a good fit for them; they won't trigger a pesky despotic golden age, (but they will be around when we do want the GA), their speed makes it easier to root out the camps, intercept axes etc, and when they get hurt they can just huddle down and heal up without too much worry of being killed on the counterattack.

 

[archphoenix]

@PaperBeetle
if you didn't trigger the global war, I perfer don't.
we will in several turns advance into MA,
and we need goto Feud as quickly as possible.
so I perfer when currency appear, buy it and sell construction all around at least 3 sci civs, to expect they all have Feud after trade themself. even they all have Mono is more better.
then use all our gpts to buy Feud, after that, is the good time to trigger world war.

furthermore, we need pyramid and sunzi on our continent, so we should see who is building pyramid and sunzi, for example "russia"(I don't know who he is, just a example).
then we will prior declare to "russia" to give them war happiness to help them finish the wonder more fast(at least fast than west-block).
another, we need the two block contribute tech for us, remember the west-block grow peaceful on a myst land!
so we need beat the two nearby block when let them research as possible.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Okay, I'm done. But I'm sorry guys, I made a bit of a mess of it!
Here is the save.

I'll do a full write-up shortly, but first the good news: we are medieval!
Also, we have 5 archers and 7 swords, and are rated as strong to everybody except Russia.
But the bad news: with the medieval came the barbarian uprisings, which caught me off guard. I lost a settler! We still have barbs pouring out of the northern desert, but a small pack of horses in the southeast has been smoothly defeated, although their camp still remains.

On the diplomatic front, we are still at war with Japan, and at peace with everyone else. There are a couple of inter-AI wars as well (including one alliance with us) which I hope will spread without further intervention from us.
A couple of AI are also medieval, including Russia (Engineering). I didn't bring Korea or the Ottoman forward yet.
Feudalism costs about 1000 beakers , so for the moment we are doing min research. At that price, we can't currently gather enough gpt to buy it at monopoly price (we max out at 44gpt, which Cath finds insulting as an offer for Engineering).

 

[archphoenix]

I recall when 2 civ enter MA, a massive babarian uprise appear, so I want to metion it, but when touch computerm, I forgot to post it.

edit:
1.maybe 1 settler lose is not so serious, I finished a pretty good 20K game also lost a settler who should found 4th or 5th city.
2.why found city7 there? does it should found 2w1nw to grab the crab?
3.does the city5 used by military porpose, or just match to worker factory?
4.do we need money to upgrade warrior? I perfer max Feud, and finally buy it from AI when it become non-monopoly.
5.maybe we should build a test game, with russia,korea, ottoman on tiny map ,most aggressive AI, Emperor level, to find how much gpts AI want for non-monopoly Feud (and Mono and Engi).

 

[PaperBeetle]

1325 bc interturn
Cleo signs Toku up to fight us. She then turns around and offers us peace if we hand over Philosophy + 40g . No deal.
A barb horse ambushes one of our scouts.

1300 bc
The road between Zimbabwe and sheep town Isandhlwana is complete.

Interturn
Zimbabwe finishes the impi, and starts a sword.

1275 bc
The impi heads out to the northwest to patrol the desert looking for barbs. Meanwhile, the (elite) archer out there heads back to Zululand, ultimately expecting to go to the choke point to fight real people.

Interturn
We lose another scout to an Arabian axe.
Korea sells Mapping to Russia for Polytheism.

1250 bc
Mpondo_city7 founded on the south coast location chosen by socralynnek.

Interturn
An elite Japanese axe approaches our choke-blocking scout from the south!

1225 bc
As workers finish their jobs in the core area, they start to move east to build a road up the isthmus. We have two archers guarding the southern end of the isthmus, and a scout blocking the northern end. The archers move north, and the scout heads north too, to avoid the Japanese axe.

Interturn
The AI blocs fall to peace. As we only have an embassy with India, all I see is India getting four peace deals back to back, but I assume the same goes for all the other AI too.
Zimbabwe builds sword, and starts settler.

1200 bc
Deal time: I'm going to try to get something worthwhile for Philosophy...
Give Abu 40g for peace. We are now at peace with everyone except Toku.
Embassy with Arabia (43g). Mecca has no improvements, 3 reg spears in defense, and is building horses, currently doing 3spt (pop 2, the irrigated bg is being worked by another town).
Abu knows Toku, but war would cost Philosophy + 12gpt. Too much...
I realise I should have started proceedings with giving India Philo for war with the Middle-east!
Give Cleo Philosophy for a slave + 25g. Give Abu Philosophy to get our 40g back.

Interturn
Egypt gets Construction and sells it to Russia and the Ottoman. So much for our monopoly... I couldn't judge its value with Egypt as they had nothing to give us.

1175bc
The impi in the northwest desert breaks up a barb camp.
The scout at the northern choke loses sight of the Japanese axe, which may be a mistake - I was hoping to be able to draw the thing into Arabian territory.
As Construction is out, I give it to Wang for Mapping + 93g, then both those techs to Abu for war with Toku. Lastly I take Mao's treasury (48g) for Polytheism.

1150 bc interturn
Zimbabwe builds settler, and starts sword.
China gets Currency! I really wasn't expecting anyone to get it so soon.

1125 bc
Mpondo_city7 is hooked up to the trade network.
Scout2 is wandering aimlessly in the India/Japan area. I was planning to use it for a pillage, but knowing that there is a Japanese axe on the isthmus, we could just kill that instead.
Our 2 elite archers and 2 swords arrive at the southern end of the choke.
The new settler heads southeast towards the site I marked with a pink dot in the above screenshot.
Third trade round in a row:
Give Mao Construction + Mapping for Currency. Cath's price on Laws is Currency + 14gpt! Ouch. She must be working on Currency. So I research Laws at max... 11 turns for 288 beakers.

Interturn
Barb uprisings! The AI have gone Medieval... China and Russia traded Laws and Currency.
Laws is now worth 16gpt from either civ. Of course, we could take it from China and attack Japan.

1100 bc
There is a barb camp south of Isandhlwana which I was trying to take out with an archer. Now it contains 9 horses . The archer kills one of them. The elite archers and swords retreat from the isthmus to defend Isandhlwana from the barbs. Conversely, workers pile up into the isthmus where they are safer from barbarian ambush.
Toku is now prepared to give us peace, and would pay his treasury (35g) for the deal. But I don't go for it.

Interturn
India dows on the Ottoman. Interesting. They aren't very close though, so it may just be a phoney war.
A barb horse takes the settler! I should have had the area secured ahead of time. I should have held the settler back while I dealt with the barb uprisings. Awful awful awful.

1075 bc
An elite archer terminates the settler-killing horse.
The archers on the isthmus are still trundling north, and bump into the Japanese axe, which is still fortified where our scout left it, blocking the northern choke.
Zimbabwe's military police upgrade from axe to sword in case the barb horses head for our capital.
Laws is spreading through the AI; give Cleo Currency for Laws, and Zululand goes medieval.
I check Cath's free tech (Engineering), and start researching Feudalism at mininum.

Interturn
The Japanese blocker attacks our archers and kills one of them .
Down at Isandhlwana, the barb horses aren't attacking - they skirt northwest around the town.
Meanwhile, more horses are appearing from the northern desert.
Zimbabwe builds sword and starts settler.

1050 bc
The remaining choke archer backs off from the Japanese axe. I was tempted to kill it of course, but we have little to gain from war with the Orientals right now.

1025 bc
Tired of the barb horse pack not attacking, I move all units out of Isandhlwana and Zimbabwe to meet them! Risky you say? The units from Isandhlwana kill 4 horses, earn 2 promotions, and are left blocking the barb's route to the town.

Interturn
In the south, all remaining barbs impale themselves on our swords (1 more promotion).
The barbs in the north, however, are not taking on the fortified impi, and have taken to the mountains instead. Meh.

1000 bc
Micro the towns a bit. Retire regular swords to Zimbabwe for mp, and wounded units head into Isandhlwana. Most fresh units are still free to move.
Done.

PaperBeetle - just played
Taxpayer'sMoney - next up
Wardancer - on deck
archphoenix -
Bucephalus -
socralynnek -

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

Thanks PaperBeetle. So, what next?

 

[socralynnek]

One thing to do in any case: Stop when someone has Feud to discuss how to buy it (by triggering war we could get it for nothing), maybe we should have a galley with a unit near some opponents (esp. Russia)

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

If it were up to me I would do something (ill thought out and inefficient) like this:

1) Finish off the barbs.
2) Switch the Impi builds to swords, and, once the other existing builds are finished, build pretty much nothing but swords.
3) After the first round of sword builds are complete I'd take my troops and stroll up to the nearest civ and start giving them a bit of a thrashing.
4) Trade any techs I can for whatever the AI will give me, until there are no oustanding trades.
5) Sign peace when my troops wear thin, and I've captured a couple of cities.
6) Build some new swords.
7) Back to stage 3 and repeat until civ is dead.
8) Repeat process for next nearest civ.

I am telling you this not as a serious suggestion as to what we should do next, rather as a warning as to the stupidity that will ensue should I not receive the benefits of your wisdom.

 

[archphoenix]

without any war threaten,I have no idea how to get Feud.
I have a test game, zulu vs all-8-civ-expect-japan on a standard pangea map.
when advance to MA, korea,ottoman and russia all have Feud, but with Embassy, ROP, each of them want the same:
Feud=75gpt+280g.