SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Sure, I'll get on the next one then. I'll try to find out how much gold we can save before library (needing to finish PH in time to begin Oracle is the constraint).
Aim to post PPP tomorrow.

OK, thank you!
I'll update the roster and the rest on page 1 tomorrow.

 

[Fluroscent]

To avoid to waste worker turns once the mine is completed, we send 1 to road for StPete and the other to road the W gold.

This works, though a somewhat different way to go. We are forced to build a warrior before Oracle since the lack of 2nd gold mine means PH is too slow, but earlier academy (T70) means we can still make a T73 Oracle (by shifting between working cow/clam too to balance production and research), and with Moscow ending up with more food, this approach is probably preferable.
Still, we are not actually saving worker turns when the W gold road is not needed, but rather saving on building the StP road, but whatever

I added 12 to our treasury to simulate the tech difference, and by stocking 40 we end up using up our treasury just when we finish math. So in the real game, we will aim to go 1T at 0% before working gold, and 2T at 0% working gold.

I aim to play until we have scrubbed the grass ~19-20T (didn't note exactly when). By then, we have no worker plans, so we can work on how to best improve StP for the next set.
Could also stop earlier at founding StP, if someone is not convinced yet that the first build is a chariot.

Now to replay and note the details for a PPP.

 

[Fluroscent]

Turnset plan


T38
MM cow->fish

T39
Begin worker scheme 1 to gold->road, 1 to road cow->gold

T42
Workboat->warrior

T45
Warrior->Library
Set 0%

T46
1 worker to road gold->improve. Other roads to StP, then improve gold.

T48
Resume 100%, 51 in the treasury

T50
Lib->settler
Employ scientist

T55
Fire scientist, work gold
Settler->warrior

T56
Found StP->begin chariot
Begin scrubbing grass tile. Employ 2 scientists (from cows)

T57
Warrior->Oracle
Warrior move to check out cow site (then return to MP StP).

End set.

Notes:
-Academy will be T71, some MM needed before CoL to get just enough hammers to finish Oracle by T73 (A bit of calculation required - Basically how many turns of cow over clam needed)
-We should consider improving the mine at StP first, since we want to work either the the silk or the mine for the 1 tile until Oracle rather than hurriedly clear the rice.
-We want the chariot to do the scouting rather than the warrior, in case we run into archers. The warrior should return to StP before the chariot is done, or some AI units may beeline for StP (they like to do that with undefended cities).
-The first chariot is also a good canditate to get 10XP for HEpic, by killing scouts/archers(in the open)

Edit: Aim to play tonight ~9-10 hours from now unless someone protests

 

[BLubmuz]

Fluro, good plan, like we tested.
Are you sure about the rice? StPete will grow faster with that.

With this plan, when is the Oracle expected?

Nothing else, good points the units moves and builds. Go on, good luck!

Just to be sure, maybe you can try to see if some AI is actually willing to seriously negotiate peace.

 

[pnp_dredd]

looks good. I was going to suggest barracks before chariot, but I think that the earlier exploration is vital, so barracks can wait.

 

[Fluroscent]

With this plan, when is the Oracle expected?

T73. It looks impossible to make it sooner without major sacrifice.

Just to be sure, maybe you can try to see if some AI is actually willing to seriously negotiate peace.

Yeah, it would have to be Gandhi, so I'll check whenever we acquire new techs to see if it will do the trick. I'm guessing it probably needs to be something expensive like CoL though.
I am for any tech based peace treaty though, I reckon the benefits will certainly outweigh the cost.

Are you sure about the rice? StPete will grow faster with that.

I am not sure, but it might well, since we are balancing on an edge in this latest plan to finish both tech and production on T73. It is not like a 3 tile is that superior to the 211 silk or 41 hill, and as soon as we hit Oracle, we can work it.

Edit: I am thinking that the details may change again if there is more discount on the Priesthood path than in the testgame. We will see by the end of the current set. T72 Cracle might even be possible if we work cows over clams always if we get enough discounts.

looks good. I was going to suggest barracks before chariot, but I think that the earlier exploration is vital, so barracks can wait.

I am thinking we either do chariot-chariot-worker, or chariot-barracks-chariots and let Moscow build another worker.
Also, chariot-worker-barracks-etc is an option. We need to test this, and worker moves for the next set.

 

[Fluroscent]

Another thought, depending on the amount of AI on our landmass, Horseback riding might be worth it, since HA's are very powerful against early AI stacks, allowing much better K/D ratios, and with ivory available we will want to get elephants anyway.
Oh well, need some scouting before we make decisions here yet.

 

[beestar]

I would be careful about negotiating peace with only one AI.

Since we're at war with multiple other AIs, I think we're likely to be re-attacked once the peace treaty expires. We're a juicy dogpile opportunity and we're likely to be every civ's worst enemy (well, except Gandhi maybe).

If possible I'd like to end wars with all AIs at around the same time (maybe after we have Alphabet and have some tech to bribe peace with)

 

[Fluroscent]

Played to T58.
Nothing unexpected to report, and no hiccups in the plan.

Some notes:
-Gandhi is racking up religions, he has founded the three early ones now.
-All AI except religionmonger Gandhi have BW
-All AI except Roosevelt and Stalin have two cities now.
-Demographics have us at ~3 times the GNP of the AI.
-Attached demographics and a little tech survey by our friend Gibbon, who coincidently thinks we are hopeless, and that someone despicable is just glorious.
-A bit more land is revealed by founding StP, but nothing interesting other than some city ruins.

Spoiler log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2480 BC to 1680 BC:


Turn 41, 2360 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 44, 2240 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 44, 2240 BC: De Gaulle adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2080 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!

Turn 49, 2040 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 49, 2040 BC: Roosevelt adopts Slavery!
Turn 49, 2040 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 53, 1880 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 55, 1800 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 56, 1760 BC: St. Petersburg has been founded.
Turn 56, 1760 BC: Churchill has founded York in a distant land.

 

[unclethrill]

Good TS. I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[BLubmuz]

Good TS. I love it when a plan comes together!

Ditto!

Look at the save tomorrow, try to update the test to keep me on line.
I'd appreciate if you can do it for me, i think it's easier for you to reproduce your moves.

No way to update page 1, this site is impossible with CiV!

 

[havr]

The religion-collecting by Gandhi can work in our favor. Hopefully, he will try to really advance only one of them. Once we get CoL there is no new religions for some time, so the world is likely to be very homogenized which will be very good to make peace later.
(That was our logic in collecting religions in SG11. But now Gandhi is doing it for us)

 

[Fluroscent]

I've updated the testgame, it should be correct as far as our own corner of the world is concerned.

Micro notes on next set:

-The way Moscow is set up it will pop a GS a turn before running out of food, so we will be working 2 scientists, 2 gold, 1 fish and either clam or cow until the GS pops (on T71), where we can rearrange the tasks.

-I have cheated in the test to get the beaker and gold counts correct. I don't think there should be any variance now, since no AI is likely to have CoL or Math so we will have no discounts on those. I think the quantity we want to minimize is the hammers towards Oracle, meaning try to get the exact right amount needed but no more. We can of course check if it is possible to get the hammers on T72 while still finishing math on time. Either way, the thing we can do is switch between cow and clam until T71, then the last turns (or turn) can be freely microed.

-We save worker turns (obviously) by not moving both workers to unroaded/cleared tiles. We want to road the rice tile and the forest to be chopped and irrigated before other unimproved tiles.

-The 2nd warrior is on the W gold tile, and has not moved this turn. I think we should take a quick look at the area around the cow/ivory, then return to StP and let the chariot explore.

 

[BLubmuz]

I've updated the testgame, it should be correct as far as our own corner of the world is concerned.

OK Fluro, good job!

After toying with the test and looking to the actual save, I'll try to post a PPP tonight.

 

[BLubmuz]

This is my PPP:

Situation on turn 58:
GS in 13, Moscow shrink in 14, Oracle in 18 (working gold*2 and both seafood) or in 14 working fish+1cow
CoL in 8, math in 7 (8 working cows)
Research 100% -3gpt. We arrive at the Oracle with 0 gold, but it's what we need.
Keep working both seafood for 2 turns, then move from clams to cows (turn 60) This is enough to complete the Oracle when the research is finished.
GS for Academy turn 71
in that same turn Moscow will work the clams and fire a Sci. Working the cows will anticipate the Oracle.
Oracle turn 73

StPete:
turn 59 1 worker road the rice, the other start scrub the PHill.
When the rice is roaded, both to scrub it, then finish the PHill, mine
Once size 2, StPete will work the silk and the PHill, to produce 2 chariots for scouting, then a worker, if you agree.

Workers:
once mined the PHill, one will go to road the PHill in Moscow BFC, then to road the desert
the other will road the tile W of StPete, then to scrub the PHill for Moscow.

Religion:
After Confu is founded, the missionary will be sent to Moscow and parked there. In all my tests it autospreads in few turns. Then we can decide if revolt right now or wait some turn, near the time Moscow will grow.

Unit moves:
the warrior now on the hill will move NW, then a circle to arrive in StPete.
The first chariot from StPete will continue the scouting SW, the 2nd will go further North, provided there's land.

BTW Fluro, you did not mentioned those nice 'phants, don't you?

TS Lenght:
I think we all agree to not delay to revolt, so i can revolt to Caste and Bureau in the same turn. We can always revolt to slavery later.
Then i can play until we're out of anarchy, so any simulation is simpler.
As a placeholder, i'll set research to Agri and Moscow to Barracks.

So i'll play until the start of turn 74, if it's OK for you.

 

[Fluroscent]

PPP looks good. Agree on revolting before ending, it will definitely make it easier to plan ahead.

Few comments:

When the rice is roaded, both to scrub it, then finish the PHill, mine
Once size 2, StPete will work the silk and the PHill, to produce 2 chariots for scouting, then a worker, if you agree.

Do we work the rice tile? and does the mine finish in time for size 2? otherwise it might be better to delay scrubbing the rice. And you are planning to build a worker at size 2 right? I think that is a good idea, it is best if we can optimize production by not growing more than just size 2 then, and grow more rapidly later when we can work the improved (and chain-irrigated) rice.

BTW Fluro, you did not mentioned those nice 'phants, don't you?

They were visible at the start of my set, so I assumed they were common knowledge
Well, they seem to be a logical part of a 3rd city with the nearby cows. We will see how the rest of the land is, but maybe it can be our HEpic city.

As a placeholder, i'll set research to Agri and Moscow to Barracks.

As placeholders it does not really matter, but to open the post-Oracle discussion, I believe we are best off NOT building military in Moscow so it can focus on maximizing its research potential (and settler/worker pump), and thus no barracks just yet (maybe later). IMO we will need a lot more workers soon, so the next build should probably be one. We have tasks to road and scrub for a 3rd city, improve rice and chain irrigate to it, and to cottage the free grass tiles in Moscow, so plenty to do.

 

[BLubmuz]

This thread lack a bit of activity, but we need to kep the ball rolling.
So, seen Fluro's comments, if no objections posted, i'll play tomorrow, say 12-15 hours from now.

I agree about workers. Even if we need to discuss better, i'll set Moscow to build one after the Oracle.
But don't forget this will be also a military game. We need soldiers, and not a few!
But surely Moscow will be busy with wonders, so you're probably right.

 

[unclethrill]

This thread lack a bit of activity, but we need to kep the ball rolling.
So, seen Fluro's comments, if no objections posted, i'll play tomorrow, say 12-15 hours from now.

I agree about workers. Even if we need to discuss better, i'll set Moscow to build one after the Oracle.
But don't forget this will be also a military game. We need soldiers, and not a few!
But surely Moscow will be busy with wonders, so you're probably right.

Looks great to me. I hope to be able to contribute tot the testing next week. School and work are bears right now.

 

[pnp_dredd]

The PPP looks good, but perhaps can end 1 turn sooner?

The decision whether to switch to slavery or caste is very important, and I'm concerned that we haven't thought through all of the implications.

For StP production, I like chariot-chariot. Perhaps we will want a settler next rather than worker? This will be the case if the elephants/cows is a great city spot that we want to begin growing fast. When do we need to make that decision?

Finally:

Workers:
once mined the PHill, one will go to road the PHill in Moscow BFC, then to road the desert

Is there a need to do this? are we likely to return to this tile again?

 

[BLubmuz]

The PPP looks good, but perhaps can end 1 turn sooner?

The decision whether to switch to slavery or caste is very important, and I'm concerned that we haven't thought through all of the implications.

For StP production, I like chariot-chariot. Perhaps we will want a settler next rather than worker? This will be the case if the elephants/cows is a great city spot that we want to begin growing fast. When do we need to make that decision?

Finally:

Is there a need to do this? are we likely to return to this tile again?

Delaying revolting to Bureau to wait for BW seems a waste after all the efforts we made to arrive ASAP to the Oracle.
I think that at this stage nor Slavey nor Caste would be of great use. I don't want whip in Moscow and StPete is low on food and good in hammers, so i don't think it will be whipped frequently.

The hill in Moscow BFC will be mined soon and the road there is useful to avoid to waste worker turns: the worker will move there in his path to the desert and to not waste a move now and another later a road is a good thing. There can be a resource there.

We need a lot of workers!
Even if we build a settler, what we can do with a completely fallouted city? Steal tiles from Moscow?
Please remember that the city sites must be scrubbed and that there must be a road to them to avoid to waste settler moves. And possibly we want at least 2 tiles scrubbed near the city, to avoid to pay maintenance for a completely useless city.