SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Heh, BLubmuz! Are you kicking me off the team already? And the game hasn't even started yet?? This must be a tough new team.....Or maybe you are just keeping me back as a secret weapon? Anyway, let's not FEWD!, if there is still space then I would like to play.

Sorry i never noticed your nick
welcome to you too, of course! I update the team list immediately!

About all the questions arised here:
Test game:
- there's a wrong tile, the one where UT is proposing to settle. Maybe more, i have to verify with the updated Erkon's post, which i quote here, for our convenience

Spoiler :

From left to right, top to bottom

Desert fallout
Plains hills gold fallout
Grass cow fallout
Plains

Desert fallout
Grass forest
Plains hills gold fallout
Grass forest
Grass cow fallout

Plains forest
Grass fallout
Grass forest settler
Grass fallout
Plains hill fallout

Grass silk fallout
Grass silk forest
Plains hills fallout
Grass forest
Grass rice fallout

Plains hills fallout
Plains fallout
Plains hills forest
Grass hill fallout

Grass fallout

- i wait to see the actual game to update the rest, since we can see the actual diplo situation
- unfortunately we can't see what techs the AIs have until Alpha, but i suppose everyone will start with Ecology. I doubt anyone will have military techs like rocketry, even if it's useless without rifling. Maybe Stalin can have Fission, but if alone can't have a huge impact: he needs rocketry to build nukes and physics to see uranium.
I doubt we can see those techs even with Alpha, since we lack the prerequisites.
And i doubt we can give Ecology to the AI (if they don't have it already) for the same reason: if they lack the prerequisites, we can't offer it.

 

[Fluroscent]

Hey guys. Checking in for this quite mysterious game.

I am certainly more of an European socialist, and thus I am less interested in who the team leader is, than how we make decisions. Blubmuz for PM is fine with me, as he seems like an active fellow (which is good in my book). But he gets only organizational power here

Game specifics later, I'd like to make a few comments on the team rules.

-Most of it is how we have always played in WD?, only with the rules being more of the unwritten kind.

-I like a less rigid timeframe on turnsets. This is because there are some turnsets that require more careful planning than others, and sometimes a strict time limit (like 24H) can be detrimental to play quality.

-In Who Dat?, true for at least for the members now here, we have been good at being flexible when it comes to turnset lengths, roster changes and how much detail is required. I hope we can carry on with a similar feel in this game.

-Personally I'd like us to be less flexible in one area, namely in sticking with the PPP. As it turns out (SGOTM experience here ), most decisions are better after being scrutinized by the team, rather than being up to the instincts of the active player.

-Where we failed last time was in activity, and also in being punctual when up. I want to stress that it is of great importance to inform the team whenever real life concerns prevents someone being active here. I lost interest in the last game due to lack of activity in the midgame, and our endgame was very poorly planned as a result.

As for the roster - In WD? myself and pnp_dredd have been the driving force when it comes to early micro decisions. I certainly feel comfortable playing an early set if possible.

Initial thoughts on the game itself

Settling
Settling NNE seems like an obvious choice. It is an extremely good capital site for most of the game, and particularly with Bureaucracy. Fish is the only immediate 5 food tile available, and the difference between having fish or just clams is not insignificant. Particularly with tiles like 2x gold to grow onto. Thus I don't think NE can compete.

First Build
Needs to be tested thoroughly. Options as I see them are
-Warrior->Workboat
-Warrior->Worker
-Worker->Warrior
A critical piece of information is how long it takes to clear fallout.

Strategy
So, initially, we are in the dark, but we have a powerful capital site (and no other immediately useful sites). I would consider a risky Oracle->CS sling here. Perhaps including scientist bulbing math. Of course, this does not exactly play into Catherines strengths. And we certainly need at least BW off the path, and (yuck) archery if no strategic resource is available.
But even if this is too much, I'd still consider Oracle CoL at least.
Gaining access to copper will be nice. I suggest we get it with our 2nd city if not in the capital. A small force of axemen will keep us safe for a long time, particularly if we can locate a good chokepoint.
Thus I would wait for BW to plan our 2nd city location. Hopefully we can get copper with the rice for an at least decent city. A late 2nd city is probably an ok approach in general, considering that the capital will need to build 3 workboats (1 for scouting), 2 workers (probably) and several warriors anyway, and can benefit from growing quite a bit initially.

As for long term, I am very much partial to a corporation (mining in particular) driven empire for space racing. But a SP powered empire works too. Either way has good synergy with a large scale empire which it looks like we will need.

Metagame
Since we are at war, we can expect the closest AI to be somewhat far away. But if the AI starts with no units like we do, then they might be closer, since they should build garrison archers before beginning to send some to scout. Either way, there seems to be no particular reason to rush to get city defenders.
It is hard to predict much else about the game at this point. But we will certainly have to consider ways to make the AI accept peace (especially if they have huge negatives). Being a world superpower should do the trick though

Questions
-How does rising seas actually work?
-Do we have Cathys normal starting techs? or JUST Ecology?

 

[beestar]

From the SGOTM12 discussion thread:

"All" in this context means world wide, so the AI will not start with any workers. As stated earlier, "biological" in this context means any unit that breathe and eat. A scout is a biological unit, a work boat is not for example. I hope this definition suffice.

This says to me that AIs have no archer defenders.

So ... if we really want to go for the gold, we could walk the settler next to an AI capital, and warrior rush the capital.
- Settler has 2 moves, warrior only 1, so we can attack the capital faster
- No animals to eat the settler.
- Later we backfill the land to the original site
- I think the AI builds a defender first, so it's gotta be fast, or we have to pump out a lot of warriors.

This depends on the AI being relatively close. For metagame reasons, as Fluro highlighted above, this may not be true. It also depends on the AI not owning a mech inf

(Note that the flipside of the AI having no archer, is that it will waste time building a defender first. The long time before the AI has its first worker, and the widespread fallout, should slow down AI expansion.)

 

[Fluroscent]

- I would love to steal a high level tech like Rocketry from Stalin with a Great Wall GSpy, and then Oracle the following tech (stealing Fission isn't too useful as it only leads to Fusion, and Fusion also needs Fiber Optics). Not sure if this is viable, and of course it's a very long term payoff, but the beaker gain is large.

I don't think one GSpy will cut it to steal a tech that expensive, it would probably take several infiltrations. And the GWall is a bit gimped already with no barbarians, so I am a bit more inclined to go for a GS for an early academy first, with a research powerhouse capital available.
Spies in general can certainly be very useful here, but the details are hard to plan without knowing who is nearby (I very much doubt Stalin is on the same landmass).
Also, spies require alphabet, which might not be a smart early goal considering it will be impossible to trade techs until later, and getting it will discount it for the AI, which might cause us to be further isolated earlier.

Can we even see the AI techs? For example, if Stalin has Guilds and we don't have Feudalism, we only see Feudalism available for trade. (The turn we trade for Feudalism, then Guilds appears as 'can't trade' because you can't trade dependent techs on the same turn.). So, can we even see if Stalin has Rocketry? A quick WB test should verify this.

I am quite sure we cannot see what techs they have unless we can research them ourselves or we see them build stuff that requires certain techs. Spies stealing can only see techs that we can afford to steal.
We need to keep an eye open for all clues on how the AI behave that will tip us off to information on their tech level.

- How much does it take to end a war with an extremely angry AI?

War success is a sure way to do it. Hit them hard and they will be begging for mercy.
Another opition is the AP (it is available even with diplo off isn't it?). Get shared religion and push the vote.
What I'd really like to know is how diplo negatives affect AI behaviour outside actually declaring war (and willingness to trade etc.). Does it affect their willingness to discuss peace? The price? The likelihood of voting for an AP resolution?

and crush the AI as a secondary goal along the way.

Fortunately, crushing the AI means more land, and you know what they say... Land is power.
So the militaristic outlook need not be seen as a hindrance to reaching the stars.

 

[BLubmuz]

Please don't forget that all the AIs but Stalin must survive 'til the end.
So, we can't attack an undefended Capital and wipe the AI. And they will never send out an unescorted settler. They don't know the barbs ore off, that knowledge belongs only to the Human.

The plains site has some pros and some cons, compared to the GLForest.
Since an image is worth a thousand words, here are 2 screenies comparing the 2 locations with the proposed city sites. I updated the map according to Erkon's description and removed the fallout, so we can verify how the cities can be after we'll actually remove it.

Spoiler :

GForest site

and plains site

About the rules, they're more guide lines than rules which can be imposed. I think the main rule is: never do anything *big* outside the plan. Otherwise i can't see why we spend time in refining a plan. What do *big* means? it depends at which point the game is.
Changing some workers actions once we have 5 cities and 8 workers has not a huge impact, changing it when we have only one workes has.

 

[BLubmuz]

For an initial plan, i propose to beeline writing, to benefit ASAP of our cheap libraries.
We start with Hunting and Mining, so we must take a detour surely for Fishing and probably for The Wheel. Then, straight to AH>Writing.
Warrior while research fishing, then WB and worker or worker first?
I don't think we can have much trades, so perhaps Alpha will be delayed this time.
We must see if we can squeeze BW somewhere if we aim a CS sling. It's surely doable with 2 gold and a seafood (or two), with a cheap library and probably an early Academy.
IIRC removing fallout is the longer task the workers will have. And without SP it will take forever. I'm inclined to worker first, warrior, WB.

Some info, acquired using the save:
The Capital will start with -2 health, due to fallout, so a worker will ask 30 turns.
Cleaning fallout costs 6 turns on Grass/Plains and 8 on Desert/Tundra
As we already know, move on fallout cost 1 more movement, so any tile costs 2. Even the fast workers can't move/start on a hill, since with fallout this one is like being forested.

Due to the above, i think that warrior first followed by a WB is the way to go.
Always in WB, i've set the city to size 2 and give us Fishing and a net on clams and the turns for a worker dropped to 15.
Another simulation was moving the city on the plains tile. There's less unhealthiness from fallout (3 instead of 4) and working the fish and the Grass Forest, the woarker can be out in 9 turns. 20 turns at size 1.

The city will need 22 turns to grow, more or less the time we need to build a warrior and a WB.

Heavily edited, please refresh your browser

 

[Fluroscent]

About the rules, they're more guide lines than rules which can be imposed. I think the main rule is: never do anything *big* outside the plan. Otherwise i can't see why we spend time in refining a plan. What do *big* means? it depends at which point the game is.
Changing some workers actions once we have 5 cities and 8 workers has not a huge impact, changing it when we have only one workes has.

Glad to hear it . I believe that approach to be best too.

For an initial plan, i propose to beeline writing, to benefit ASAP of our cheap libraries.
We start with Hunting and Mining, so we must take a detour surely for Fishing and probably for The Wheel. Then, straight to AH>Writing.

Agree in general, however, since this is essentially always war at the beginning, we really need to consider BW.
Remember that with two gold mines, we should be quick through the first techs. And with BW, we can aid the library with a chop. Whipping looks strong too, especially if we get granary+lighthouse.
A quick academy is most certainly a strong move with two gold mines in the capital, so we should probably test the different research paths to see how fast we can get a GS.

RE: settling: The NE site, losing the fish is imo quite a lot worse. Not just because of the significant difference in having fish vs (dry)rice, but the southern auxillary city would be foodless without rice (ie. almost useless early on), and the other is mostly using unknown terrain anyway. The screenies only reinforces NNE as the winning move as I see it.

Testmap: I note that both cows are supposed to be grass cows, which means the 2N one is wrong. And of course the NNE tile needs to lose fallout and be flat. TBH, for testing initial builds, that is all that that matters for now.

 

[BLubmuz]

This is the latest save, without fallout. So you can better see how the cities can develop.
Please wait until i can see the actual game to have a perfect reproduction, from the terrain to the diplo/tech situation.
For now, i corrected the mistakes i made yesterday. More than at first sight, BTW.
It should be perfect terrain-wise.

And i agree, the spot with access to both fish and clams wins. I'm sold on it.
There's another point which made me vote for this: that spot has 1 less compared to the one NE of the settler.

In any case the city in the riverside desert has too much overlap with StPete (yes, not Moscow, Stalin got it) and no strong tiles but the fish.

Now, with some more testing we can evaluate our first build:
1) worker first: 20 turns
2) warrior/WB first: turn 0 is wasted, we settle on turn 1.
- warrior is ready in 8 turns, fishing in 7, but no point to switch to WB for a measly turn
- the WB is ready on turn 24 and the worker is started for 20 turns
- once the net on the fish is ready on turn 25, the worker shows 10 turns, thus he will be ready on turn 35.

Having the worker out on turn 22 means he can clean 2 fallouts by turn 35, or 1.5 and build a pasture.

3) warrior first, worker
since it's almost an AW game, at least at the start, i think it's not safe go for worker first. If an AI is close enough in 20 turns it can build a warrior or an archer and walk in our undefended Capital. Game over. So this is an option, but we gain almost nothing compared to 2).

Goin' straight to Writing via AH after fishing, we can have it by turn 35. But probably the wheel is better, to connect the cows and the gold.

 

[beestar]

If an AI is close enough in 20 turns it can build a warrior or an archer and walk in our undefended Capital. Game over. So this is an option, but we gain almost nothing compared to 2).

True, but having said that, if we're defending with a single warrior, we still have a (say) 20% chance of being killed, which isn't close enough to 0% to my liking. Either way, we're taking a chance.

Also, for metagame reasons, I think the nearest AI is going to be far away.

Cathy starts with Hunting and scouts, doesn't she? Early scouting could be more valuable than an earlier warrior. We don't need to fogbust vs. barbarians, and the AI doesn't have any starting units, so strong military isn't important. On the other hand, getting an early picture is really valuable, especially in this game where early information feeds the strategic ability of eight experienced Civ players.

 

[BLubmuz]

Also, for metagame reasons, I think the nearest AI is going to be far away.

hmmm... an Emperor AI can need 10 turns to build an archer, but i don't think they will let their Capital undefended for other 10 turns. So it's probably true that we won't risk much, even assuming the AI's Capital is only 10 tiles away from ours.
But the risk is there.

About the scout, it doesn't makes sense in this map. He can't move by 2 tiles on flat/unforested terrain, due to the Fallout. So, a warrior will have the same speed and will be more useful. And the cost is the same. No goody huts will make it even useless.

Anyway, we have 3 options for start. Let's test them more, or discuss more so we can be ready once the save is posted.

BTW, who takes in charge the first TS? I propose until turn 20, there's nothing to do but hit enter.

Are we OK with Fishing and AH to start?
Then we have to decide if Wheel or Writing first, unless we consider the BW option, in which case it will be Wheel-BW-Writing.

EDIT:
in a game where a good number of workers and a good use of their tasks can make the difference, i tested the various options in WB and posted on page 1.

 

[havr]

Checking in. Haven't had time to read all the posts yet (wow... two pages already), but hopefully I will do it tonight.

I am GMT-5, living in in NY, USA (near NYC).

I am happy that we are all in sync in trying to avoid the posting-crazyness of SG11.

As for the captain issue: I think Blumbuz will make an excellent captain. BUT, since it was FE that kept the group name and rules, I think it will promote group unity if WD's captain will serve as captain this time.

 

[BLubmuz]

As for the captain issue: I think Blumbuz will make an excellent captain. BUT, since it was FE that kept the group name and rules, I think it will promote group unity if WD's captain will serve as captain this time.

Now i understand why you've tried to kiss my cheek.

 

[beestar]

I'm happy for BLubmuz to be captain.

Has anyone heard from pnp_dredd yet?

 

[Fluroscent]

To keep with the metagame, I think it would be incredibly poor map design if we in any way had to rely on a warrior to defend against a scouting AI archer!
Imagine a team being defeated this way... I don't believe it is possible that the game is designed without making sure we are not attacked too early.
The main purpose of an early warrior would be to scout out the immediatly surrounding land, and possibly serving as an advanced warning outpost.

After playing a bit with the test, I am leaning towards something like:
worker->workboat->warrior until size2->worker(size2, fish+cow)->finish warrior->workboat ->settler(size4, fish, gold, cowx2)->(library, depends on tech path)
Worker improves W cow first, roads it, then riverside gold, then other gold, and then road to 2nd city. 2nd worker improves other cow, then rice for 2nd city and road.

This is just the rough idea, I am sure we can work out better details.

 

[pnp_dredd]

hey, just checking in quickly. Really busy with work and sick kids and a broken washing machine. I'm an Aussie with a family and no particular political affiliation (and a difficult timezone! GMT+10). I haven't had a really good look at the setup this time, but got the feeling that there's perhaps less opportunity to make long term plans early on, because we lack so much info.

I'll read up and post something sensible over the next few days.

 

[unclethrill]

hey, just checking in quickly. Really busy with work and sick kids and a broken washing machine. I'm an Aussie with a family and no particular political affiliation (and a difficult timezone! GMT+10). I haven't had a really good look at the setup this time, but got the feeling that there's perhaps less opportunity to make long term plans early on, because we lack so much info.

I'll read up and post something sensible over the next few days.

Last game we had Europe, Eastern Canada, Middle East, Western US and Australia time zones and we still managed to over-analyze everything. I'm sure your time zone won't be a problem.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, now we're all here.

Before anything else, i'd like to thank you all for the esteem and for the credit you gave me.
I was prepared to step back and to let Beestar be the Captain, but since he's happy with me as Captain, I'm happy to accept. Even with more responsibility, due to possible comparisons and more.
But, since the Captain has more a role of coordinator than taking decisions on his own, i don't think the charge will be too heavy.

Some word about the game:
the save i posted is incomplete and useful only for the very beginning of the game.
As i said, i'll wait to see the actual save before prepare it as much as possible close to the actual game.
Not much to wait, tomorrow we'll can download the save.

What seems already decided is where to settle: the only non-forested and non-fallout tile with access to fish, clams, 2 cows and 2 gold.

Another decision took is the first tech: fishing.
After that, we have many possibilities. If we agree to go for a CS sling (usually not a problem with 2 riverside gold) we must weight and simulate which techs we can afford to research which are not directly in the path of CS:
- the wheel
- BW
while i'm sure the wheel is not an option since we need it to hook the resources, BW is very important, but it's an option.

Another important choice is where to place writing: we have cheap libraries, a ton of food and an early Academy is almost assured, ready before Math or even CoL.
Sure, if we build a worker right after researched writing, it's almost a waste.
We must find the best research path paired with the best build queue.

What we have to decide is the initial build. I'm all for warrior first, for safety reasons.
I agree that worker first is better (not dramatically, in any case) but, since we start in a variant of AW, i'm very concerned by the safety. Thus having a warrior exploring W of the choke point and ready to run back in the Capital makes me feel a lot better.

I resume the options:
a) worker - warrior - WB
b) warrior - WB - worker
c) warrior - worker - WB

 

[pnp_dredd]

The organisational rules look great. It should be clear if a particular TS requires a longer discussion. I strongly support variable-length turnsets.

One other thing about me is that I'll often propose risky/unusual plays. This has generally stimulated some good discussions amongst WD in the past.

Some random thoughts, mostly phrased as questions. This is all based on posts in this thread - I am yet to open the save.

What are the important factors for an AI that hates you making peace?
*Unit loss ratios. What else matters?
*What else can we do if we are at war? Can gift techs?
*The AP is brilliant Fluro. Shared religions may be vital to forming a block of "allies" who hate someone else more than us.

"Difficulty: Emperor - but be warned. It may play a little higher that this"
What could this mean?
*Beestar set out the likely diplo problems (basically always war). Will need to see the real game before we know more.
*Wonders already completed?
*Marble/copper/horses in AI capitals BFC?
*AI has lots of room to expand / little fallout nearby?
*AI already has many important techs (e.g. could start with HBR/IW, or Priesthood/Literature or important civics like HR or slavery etc)
*May be that a huge Stalin is sharing the continent with us, in that case the key early play will be removing that threat.

A strong early start is vital. Normal speed, so making the best early decisions is incredibly important.

We have access to lots of really good tiles. Too many really.
*I wouldn't mind quite a bit of overlap with a second city (I like the riverside desert city), which will free us to work early science specialists in an Academy capital. *Happiness will be limiting in this game, and healthiness also problematic, so cities will be small till Monarchy. Better to have more but smaller cities?
*Can we fit 3 (or even 4) cities in the visible area to ensure that we work as many great tiles as possible, really early on? (I haven't opened the test save yet to have a good look)
*Build a settler (or even two?) before we start running scientist specialists?
*Lots of workers will be important, but lots of cities is also important given the tiles we have.
*On the other hand, working 2xgold with a Capital Academy will be a key early play.

In my usual risk-loving way, I think warrior first or second will slow us down too much. We're not playing against the AI, we're playing against the other teams!

Initial moves:

We should definately explore worker-workboat(t7)-complete worker-warrior. Early growth may actually translate to more defence around turn 40-50, when it's more likely to matter, rather than having warrior as one of the first two builds.

Definately agree that we'll need to test build order alongside tech order.

Another alternative worth examining could be AH first, worker first, then fishing/work boat.

 

[unclethrill]

I really hate to stagnate the city growth while we build a worker first. We can't start with a WB since we don't have fishing. So that only leaves a warrior/scout first. We can have a worker around T7 just in time to finish fishing and start a WB. We will finish the WB just about the time we grow. Then we can work the clams and the improved fish to build the worker faster. I need to test it but I think the time to build a worker straight out and building a warrior, WB, worker will be about the same finish date for the worker.

 

[Fluroscent]

There is always the usual seafood option of worker until fishing, then wb, then finish worker. However this works best with a 2 or 3 hammer tile available. With the need to clear fallout, I feel that getting a worker out first is even more important than normal.

In my usual risk-loving way, I think warrior first or second will slow us down too much. We're not playing against the AI, we're playing against the other teams!

Couldn't agree more!

Since we have several options and several opinions on what is best, I think we should try to play some tests to see how early the certain builds will get us, say, the academy? for comparison. Or even follow through to a CS- sling.

A bit of info.

*I wouldn't mind quite a bit of overlap with a second city (I like the riverside desert city), which will free us to work early science specialists in an Academy capital. *Happiness will be limiting in this game, and healthiness also problematic, so cities will be small till Monarchy. Better to have more but smaller cities?
*Can we fit 3 (or even 4) cities in the visible area to ensure that we work as many great tiles as possible, really early on? (I haven't opened the test save yet to have a good look)

We will be able to work all the strong tiles (2xcow, 2xseafood, 2x gold) in the cap without crossing any caps if we hook our available resources. Then comes possible religion, calendar and so forth that will allow us to add some cottages. And as far as we can see, no other city site has growth potential that will stress the caps early.

I really think our focus should be to boost our capital asap, meaning getting it to size 6 with the tiles improved and an academy asap. At size 6, it can churn out settlers/workers/whatever easily while providing a tremendous economic boost.

"Difficulty: Emperor - but be warned. It may play a little higher that this"
What could this mean?

The "always" war like setting should account for a somewhat increased difficulty. I doubt there will be something utterly unpredictable (like already completed wonders) going on, as that would potentially punish teams with an otherwise "correct" strategy.