SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[cas]

Ran a couple of worker first tests, and there is one that seems to fit very nicely.

Tech: fishing-AH-Wheel-Writing-Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood-Agriculture-Math-CoL
Build: Worker-Warrior-WB-Worker-Library-WB-Settler-Oracle
Growth to size three happens same turn as WB completes, nicely fitting. And Worker completes same turn as Writing is in.

Worker1: Scrub->pasture->road->scrub->pasture->scrub(riverside gold)->mine
Worker2: Scrub(riverside gold)->Mine
Both then improve other gold, then road to next city and improve rice. Roading the riverside gold first is actually a waste of turns, as the gold happy boost can wait exactly as long as it takes to improve and road the other gold, which means a faster road to the 2nd city.

Of course, we run 2 scientists immediately in when the library completes, which yields a T69 GS for me, and a T83 (800BC) Oracle->CS. Which can surely be improved by stockpiling a bit of gold before the academy completes.

I tested something similar to this going:
AH-fishing-wheel-writing-myst-med-priest-CoL-math. Not sure why you went math > CoL. CoL is probably good trade bait for Alpha from Gandhi. Although we may not want to switch to Confu right away because Gandhi will probably be in Hindu or Bud. Agriculture is nice for city2 rice but slows down Oracle. I'd rather have CS 4 turns faster.

worker-wb-warrior-worker-library-wb-warrior-settler-oracle. It was not always optimal and I mm some tile here and there for timing with techs.

I was 1 turn ahead on the GS. I think 4 turns on the Oracle (in capital) if I scrub/mine the PH to the SSE of Moscow. This includes a road to connect city2 on the forest PH south and 2 turns of 0% science before academy to stockpile a little gold. Possible to go Confu/size7 capital around turn 72-73.

Anyway, bottom line, I like:
settle 1NNE turn1
worker-wb-warrior
AH-fishing (I was still able to complete fishing by turn 19-20? for immediate wb 2nd build)
EP to Gandhi
see if Gandhi can be bribed to peace


I'm not strongly opposed to worker-warrior-wb. I just think it is a little less optimal. If the team favors very limited scouting before he has to return for MP duty, that is ok with me.

cas

 

[pnp_dredd]

I'm not 100% convinced by wheel-writing rather than writing-wheel, and perhaps fit in BW before CS if at all possible? The first should allow an earlier library and earlier Academy and the second may allow faster Bureaucracy (otherwise we have to wait for BW to do the double-switch to slavery/bureau).

I agree with:
settle 1NNE turn1
worker-wb-warrior
AH-fishing
EP to Gandhi
see if Gandhi can be bribed to peace

I haven't opened the test save, so assume there's no other diplo options that we can do?

To whoever is playing the first set (20 turns: up to the worker?), can we please get screenies of the demographics on turn 0, 1 and around turn 5, 10, and 15.

 

[beestar]

This is assuming the AI in the actual game will give peace in the same timeframe/mode that they do in the test. Erkon may have done other things to the AI too.

Actually, that's a good point. We know we have 14 of our warriors dead against Gandhi's Modern Armor. BLubmuz, is that war success ratio included in your test save?

 

[Fluroscent]

We don't actually have to decide on wb or warrior after worker just yet. We might learn stuff during the first 21 turns it takes to complete the worker that may influence our decision.
If we hear or see nothing, then by all means let's go with the wb, but if we, say, get discovered by a scout very early, we might want to get the warrior first.

Not sure why you went math > CoL. CoL is probably good trade bait for Alpha from Gandhi.

That was not a factor in my decision at that point (it was random tbh). We certainly don't have to decide that yet. Math+something may be better to grab alpha in trade, and if we plan to chop (unlikely though). Right now I'd choose CoL too.

Your results are similar to mine when I try with wb before warrior, so we can assume that we gain a few turns by doing that.

If we are at war, the AI will focus on military instead of expansion

True, and for most of them, we want them to be more militaristic, which should allow us to gain a tech advantage and crush them later. However, I think there is good reason to get peace with Gandhi ASAP, since we want him to grow and help us tech. He is a pushover anyway when/if we need to kill him. We also don't want him accumulating too much mutual military struggle with the others.

 

[BLubmuz]

This is assuming the AI in the actual game will give peace in the same timeframe/mode that they do in the test. Erkon may have done other things to the AI too. We don't need to overly focus on peace. If we are at war, the AI will focus on military instead of expansion. This is a good thing! We just need enough military to hold them at bay for a bit while we out tech the heck out of them.

Sure, the real game can differ from the test.
It's useless to try to get peace until turn 10 even in my test.
I managed a cease-fire with G. around turn 20 and peace treaties with all the other AIs just before settle StPete, turn 48.

Actually, that's a good point. We know we have 14 of our warriors dead against Gandhi's Modern Armor. BLubmuz, is that war success ratio included in your test save?

No, i don't think it's worth the effort. This will probably give the AIs only some GG points.

And, as we already agreed, by the time GG points will come in play, the test will cease his usefulness.

I'm not 100% convinced by wheel-writing rather than writing-wheel, and perhaps fit in BW before CS if at all possible? The first should allow an earlier library and earlier Academy and the second may allow faster Bureaucracy (otherwise we have to wait for BW to do the double-switch to slavery/bureau).

We badly need the wheel for connect cows and rice. But, focusing on the very early stage, to connect cows. It also will speed the workers, since without it every tile costs 2 moves.
I built the library very late in my test, since i prioritized workers and the first settler.

I don't want the Oracle in Moscow. StPete can or can not generate GPersons, depends if we sacrifice production and/or growth there. But Moscow is almost a GPerson Farm. I don't want the gene polluted. GS and GE points there, nothing else.
The only exception is if we decide for the GLH. A discussion to have later.

First TS

Now, i see we mostly agree on the very opening, so i resume the objectives for the turns 0 to 10:
- Move the settler NNE, to settle on the only non-forested/non-fallout tile.
- Research AH (it will need 13 turns, so it won't complete)
- We have no choice for the tile to work: GForest
- Once settled Moscow focus all our EP points on G.
- Build Worker
- Do nothing diplomatically, just watch the messages, if any

If we decide so, we can arrive to have AH finished to see and inform the team if we see horses, so we can have more time to discuss about them. Thus, first TS can be 0 to 14. Please specify your choice.

If there're no objections in 12 hours, i think Unclethrill can play after that. Unless any other member volunteers for this hard job.

 

[beestar]

Doesn't war success affect the willingness of the AI to declare peace? Gandhi will not quite be as easy to appease as in our test game.

General plan sounds good to me. Can I echo the request to monitor a few things
- Beaker discounts from techs (to verify if AIs have any unusual early techs)
- Demographics screen
- Diplo trade screen when the AI becomes willing to talk, of course ...

 

[Fluroscent]

I don't want the Oracle in Moscow. StPete can or can not generate GPersons, depends if we sacrifice production and/or growth there. But Moscow is almost a GPerson Farm. I don't want the gene polluted. GS and GE points there, nothing else.

I do not see Moscow as a GPfarm at all. In fact, I would recommend against running scientists there after the first GS, since with bureaucracy, is multiplied so cottages or even lighthouse coast win out easily. Thus I would certainly build the Oracle there rather than sacrifice the earlier academy to get a 2nd city sooner. And it is going to be our by far most production heavy city for ages, so it is nice to be able to build wonders there without worrying about GP pollution.

Of course, the forest hill city is not a gpfarm either, but do we really need to worry about that now? We are not PHI, and there seem to be no great advantage to any early bulbs, the limiting factor on Oxford likely being getting six cities to build universities. I'd rather find a real spot for a GP farm.

And would a GPro not actually be a very decent 2nd GP? A confu shrine in a game we plan to dominate, rather than join a block could be very profitable. And a shrine is a good base for a later WS/corp HQ.

 

[BLubmuz]

This is the summary report of my test:

turn 42: Tech research finished: Writing
turn 51: Tech research finished: Agriculture
turn 54: Moscow finishes: Library
turn 60: Tech research finished: Priesthood
turn 64: St. Petersburg finishes: Library
turn 65: Tech research finished: Bronze Working
turn 73: Euclid (Great Scientist) born in Moscow
turn 77: Research begun: Mathematics (5 Turns)
turn 82: St. Petersburg finishes: The Oracle

on turn 82, when i stopped, i has 5 workers, 2 warriors, 1 chariot and a settler almost ready in Moscow.
Both cities has a library.
I know i built late the library in Moscow, so i get late the GS. My reasoning was that since i want the Oracle in StPete, i can delay the library/GS. You can think at it as the price to pay to avoid the polluted gene.
So, if we decide to follow this strategy, we can even research Agri before Writing.
Agri is particularly important for the execution of this plan, since improving the rice is the key to build the Oracle in StPete.

 

[BLubmuz]

I do not see Moscow as a GPfarm at all.(...)

This can be true, provided we find a decent GP farm.
I think the best use of the land can be:
- Irrigate the forest where the settler started to chain irrigation to the rice, so that StPete can work its mines
- cottage the 2 forests in Moscow BFC
- Moscow can work 3 mines and 2 cows (which equals a mine), so it's not a production monster, but it's good enough with Bureaucracy
- I added some tech and a LH in my test and the GLH can be built in 9 turns. This probably means i can live with the polluted gene.

I'll run a test with a different strategy, let's see what i can do.

 

[BLubmuz]

Doesn't war success affect the willingness of the AI to declare peace? Gandhi will not quite be as easy to appease as in our test game.

This can be true. When i'll run the test to try a strategy with Oracle in Moscow i'll update the save with this

General plan sounds good to me. Can I echo the request to monitor a few things
- Beaker discounts from techs (to verify if AIs have any unusual early techs)
- Demographics screen
- Diplo trade screen when the AI becomes willing to talk, of course ...

Actually, i don't know how to monitor the discounts on techs. I know we have a discount for any AI which we have contact with knowing a certain tech, but i think you can't see it in the F6 screen. Instead, you find yourself researching in less turns. Please correct me if i'm wrong. I'll try to look for some hint in the War Academy.

Found on first attempt. here

Spoiler :

Calculating the Known Civilizations w/ Tech modifier

1) Multiply 0.30 by the number of KNOWN, LIVING civilizations, who have the tech.

2) Divide by the number of civilizations which STARTED on the map and ROUND DOWN to the hundredth place (0.01) of the quotient.

3) Add 2) to 1

Tech Known by Civilizations modifier = 1 + RDDW (0.30 * # known Civs who have the tech / # of Civs who started the game
Calculating the Prerequisites modifier

1) Start with 1. If the technology does NOT have a minimum requirement (i.e., the starting techs = Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining), then use 1 AS the modifier.

2) Add 0.2 to 1) if a Technology has a MINIMUM Requirement that the player has met. Note: Even if a tech has MANY MANDATORY PREREQUISITES, it will still only give you a boost of 1.2 because you MUST have all those prerequisites to research the tech. (IOW, the minimum requirement IS all of those prerequisites.)

3) Add 0.2 to 2) for EACH ADDITIONAL OPTIONAL Prerequisite that the player has met.

Requirements modifier = 1 + (0.2 * MINIMUM Req. met) + (0.2 * # of Optional Prereq. met)

 

[unclethrill]

Sure, the real game can differ from the test.
It's useless to try to get peace until turn 10 even in my test.
I managed a cease-fire with G. around turn 20 and peace treaties with all the other AIs just before settle StPete, turn 48.

No, i don't think it's worth the effort. This will probably give the AIs only some GG points.

And, as we already agreed, by the time GG points will come in play, the test will cease his usefulness.

We badly need the wheel for connect cows and rice. But, focusing on the very early stage, to connect cows. It also will speed the workers, since without it every tile costs 2 moves.
I built the library very late in my test, since i prioritized workers and the first settler.

I don't want the Oracle in Moscow. StPete can or can not generate GPersons, depends if we sacrifice production and/or growth there. But Moscow is almost a GPerson Farm. I don't want the gene polluted. GS and GE points there, nothing else.
The only exception is if we decide for the GLH. A discussion to have later.

First TS

Now, i see we mostly agree on the very opening, so i resume the objectives for the turns 0 to 10:
- Move the settler NNE, to settle on the only non-forested/non-fallout tile.
- Research AH (it will need 13 turns, so it won't complete)
- We have no choice for the tile to work: GForest
- Once settled Moscow focus all our EP points on G.
- Build Worker
- Do nothing diplomatically, just watch the messages, if any

If we decide so, we can arrive to have AH finished to see and inform the team if we see horses, so we can have more time to discuss about them. Thus, first TS can be 0 to 14. Please specify your choice.

If there're no objections in 12 hours, i think Unclethrill can play after that. Unless any other member volunteers for this hard job.

I think we have enough of a consensus to build the PPP. I'll work on it in the next 10 hours and post and then we can tweak before Monday and hopefully I can play Monday night. I would prefer to play through the end of AH. That will give us a nice new point to start discussions.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think we have enough of a consensus to build the PPP. I'll work on it in the next 10 hours and post and then we can tweak before Monday and hopefully I can play Monday night. I would prefer to play through the end of AH. That will give us a nice new point to start discussions.

I agree we can arrive to complete AH. Next one will be Fishing, i think.
I guess you can copy/paste my #85 above to make your PPP, with the due variations.

I updated my #90 with the link to the War Academy article.
I also made some experiment in WB, with our test game:
i used BW to test
the F6 screen does NOT change the beakers requested for a certain tech, 187 for this one.
But the research drops from 16 to 15 turns once 3 AIs know BW.

 

[BLubmuz]

I made all the warrior/MA mess and the diplo situation is drastically changed.
Sorry to have underestimated the impact of 14 wins for each Leader.
Luckily this won't affect the WW. I guess it's because this happened before we settle.

But i think this won't change much the opening, just no way to trade anything.

Thre's a problem in generating the GS fast and working the 2 gold: Moscow is size 6 and it's Health and Happy capped. So i must work the fish for 2 turns, then switch to the gold until it's about to starve.
A LH will solve the problem, but it's out of question research Sailing before the prerequisites for CS.

I also would like to prioritize to settle StPete: not only we gain 1 commerce for each city, but having it up and running soon can be of great help in producing units.

Once the city is up, we can discuss where to build the Oracle.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, ran another test until CS (turn 81, 850 BC).
Without Agri. but with BW.
If we avoid BW, we can improve by some 4-5 turns.
Again with Oracle in StPete.
The constraint was the research, not production.
The problem is that Moscow can't work both gold and keep 2 Sci and the gold gives more beakers than a Sci.
The benefit of an Academy does NOT worth much at this stage, since it' built only on turn 73. No way to have enough workers, the settler and the library before turn 50.

I think it's a great start in any case: 2 cities up and running with libraries, workers a settler almost in and enough units to explore and defend.

I think i'll wait to see if we have more infos from the first or even the 2nd TS before run other tests.

The diplo situation was completely different: no way to make peace with anyone. Even Gandhi, even having techs to give him.
OK it's AW. Let's be prepared.

 

[unclethrill]

TS 1

Turn 0

Move Settler 1N

Turn 1

Move Settler 1NE and found Moscow
Start AH (13T)
Start worker (20T)
Work only square possible
Set EP to Ghandi

Turn 2 - 13

Press enter and wait for something exciting to happen.

Turn 14

Finish AH.
Save and submit before ending turn.


Unless I get a "Stop! Don't play" message, I will play out the first 14 turns in about 24 hours.

 

[BLubmuz]

Go ahead, destroy them all (ahem....)
but please post the Autolog. I think screenies are not needed, but always appreciated.

I'm goin' crazy trying to shave 1-2 turns (well, possibly more) from the Oracle.

 

[Fluroscent]

I'm goin' crazy trying to shave 1-2 turns (well, possibly more) from the Oracle.

I managed a T79 (900BC) Oracle. You were on the right track on the delaying academy and Oracle in StP.
What I did was to forego the library in StP (It yields almost nothing), settling it with a settler built at Moscow size 4, to get both golds online asap (I ignored one of the cows). Also with BW, but no AG yet.
StP worked the PH immediately starting build is Oracle. I took math before CoL to add a chop.

I had built some 6-7 warriors, an extra wb for scouting, a settler and a 3rd worker with all the free production in Moscow. I imagine growing a bit more to run 2 scientists will be better rather than settler. We might also sink some hammers into stonehenge for failure gold.
With confu, we can be size 7 working both golds and 2 scientists. So just time it to grow with the completion of oracle/CoL.

 

[Fluroscent]

@UT, looks good. Remember to monitor the demographics, preferably some screenies at a handful of turns interval. If you want to continue until fishing too, that would be ok by me (more pressing enter and waiting).

 

[Fluroscent]

Delaying the academy actually makes a lot of sense if we shut off research after CS (well, after AG+probably sailing too) to stockpile gold in our bureau capital. That way, we lose nothing delaying it a few more turns to avoid not working our golds.

 

[pnp_dredd]

unclethrill, please post the demographics screens at turn 0 and 10 at least. I'm somewhat interested in when the AI builds military, but beestar and fluro are known to extrapolate the entire game from early demographics screens

The autolog will be useful, perhaps could be some interesting Civics changes?


Blubmuz: I think that a very early Academy is the key. Once it's up we don't need to worry about specialists anymore, and can immediately run those two golds through an extra 50% multiplier. Have you tried really getting an early Library and early specialists, but not prioritising a second worker? If we aren't working the golds, then no need to rush to improve them. Perhaps time the second worker to build a road and land on the Rice just as the borders pop?