SGOTM 12 - klarius

[TimBentley]

The RNG hated me and I should have waited a couple more turns to attack I guess (I assumed at least one unit would be able to attack more than once), so it'll be a few turns to kill the Aztecs.

1200(0): put scientist on coast in Constantinople
change entertainer to scientist in Tenochtitlan

IBT: tile pillaged; terrible RNG: lose 2 swords, AC; kill archer, spear
Tenochtitlan worker->library
Constantinople MDI->MDI

1175(1): lux to 0%, 3 scientists, 20spt, -1fpt

IBT: kill archer, Aztecs running away
Russia starts Hanging Gardens

1150(2): meet Scandinavia, trade them CoL for 35g, 5gpt
lose AC attacking spear

IBT: Constantinople MDI->MDI
Babylon, Sumeria start Sun Tzu's
Sumeria starts HG

1125(3): meet Greece, sell them philosophy for 8g
I think war happiness from Aztecs ended, lux to 10%
sell Arabia CoL for 16g, 2gpt
sell Babylon monotheism for 25g, 11gpt

IBT: Persia starts Sun Tzu's

1100(4): move troops towards Osaka

IBT: Vikings are at war with France
Constantinople MDI->market
I hadn't realized Teotihuacan had pop rushing unhappiness, it riots
Korea starts Sun Tzu's

1075(5): Wow, France has 18 wool. Sell them literature for 69g
kill spear
send sword to Teotihuacan

IBT: lose AC (maybe should have built a pike)
Persia starts Sun Tzu's

1050(6): sell feudalism to China for 43g, 7gpt
kill archer, spear

IBT: kill archer
Teotihuacan harbor->library

1025(7): kill 4 spears in Osaka, lose a sword, AC

IBT: kill jag
Persia starts HG

1000(8): retreat units for healing

Notes: Mongols might have gold worth trading for
Here is the save.

 

[Wotan]

OK, I've got the save. Will hopefully play tonight but it depends on the situation I encounter when actually looking at it and after the preliminary discussions later today. But from your report it looks as if we are basically still where we were at the start of the turnset so the same plans should apply to the next I guess. Finish Aztecs and take on Japan if the opportunity is there?

EDIT: It does not tell from your report but do we know how many units Aztecs have in Osaka?

 

[klarius]

Well, bad RNG is one thing. Not building units in the capital while at war with a deity AI (even though in the ropes) another .

We definitely should regroup and continue. BTW Wotan the number of units in Osaka will fluctuate. Aztecs are still at war and will move units in and out. But we should be able to pull the puppet strings, by opening a way to Teotihuacan (or to our workers). Then not many units (maybe 3 spears + healing units) should stay in Osaka.

We also need to guard our other cities. If somebody lands a single archer near Constantinople or Tenochtitlan we cannot defend them. And for Tenochtitlan we could also get trouble with barbs.

I think we should start some more phony wars. But look to it that you don't get a scientific civ in a bad position. So something like Greece and Russia together against one of their neighbors. I would do much more in a single player game, but in a SG the diplomacy might be to much to track.

Well, now a pretty longterm plan . I want Paris with all that wool and the FP (or palace if we build FP near home) in it.

 

[Wotan]

I am actually snowed in today . So "working" from home.

I have now looked at the save and it is pretty bad at the moment. We have no real offensive power and need to rebuild a strike force. So I guess warfare is for the final few turns of my turn set if at all.

Will address the issue with guarding our locations.

Tradewise I am curious as to your position on it. Have we decided on who should be our friends, apart from the obvious science tribes I mean? We want to keep research high and talked about trading/gifting Monarchy to all. There are several who still do not have this tech and I see no real value in it for us at this stage? When someone get Invention/Chivalry we might be able to get something for it but should I pass it around? At least to the tribes with a few gold in the till?

Until Astronomy expansion other than west/north is not going to help us when trying to keep people happy through luxuries. So the next step after Japan is probably either Rome/India or Inca/Maya? If Inca/Maya do we use that to boost Otto? India will give us spices anyway so gifting the spice area in Inca territory will not harm us. Thoughts?

Fastest route to Paris seems to be trough Persia/Hittites and onwards east from there?

 

[klarius]

It's much too early to think about final enemies - friends. And that's also not necessary in Civ3. You can war for 1000nds of years and still get the vote of somebody, if you didn't harm them to much.
As I said I see Paris as a goal, so that's one enemy.
Keeping techs away doesn't help currently except for the next 1-2 targets. So trade whatever seems appropriate except with Japan and probably India as next logical target.
Monarchy should for sure go out, so nobody researches it. The same for feudalism, except for nearby potential enemies.
Alliances coupled with gpt and gpt back might be nice to already think about saving money for the next age change (quite a bit in the future, but we will need loads of money).

 

[Wotan]

I feel confident we are in agreement then Klarius, I will play my turns now for lack of better things to do...

 

[Ronald]

I agree with what was said and wish you a better luck with the RNG Wotan

 

[Wotan]

Turn log

0 – 1000BC Preflight
One of the Workers on the forest south of Teo is roading it? I stop this and move him to the bg NW. So we can speed up that tile’s development.

IBT: Two roman Legions land next to Osaka. And a Japanese Archer also land so both tiles in our direction is occupied by others.
Greeks start building HG.

1 – 975BC
Meet the Celts and if I count correctly they are the final tribe in the game so we have now met everyone.
With several turns to go until we have anything close to a strike force I decide to send the vet SMs to be upgraded to MIs.

DoW India. Embassy in Portugal and get them in as an ally for CoL, Construction and Poly.
Sell Monarchy to Mongols for 3gpt and 29 gold, to Scandinavia for 22 gold,

IBT: Rome at war with Aztecs. Two SMs die attacking Osaka. They might be deity but sure do not act as one… AI is Civ3 is so stupid… Japanese Archer attack and win one less defender. 5 Aztec Spear move north out from Osaka. How many do the have? A warrior attack and kill the Japanese Archer and retreat back into Osaka.
Mongols, Iroquois and Vikings start building HG.

2 - 950BC
C Marketplace -> MI

Upgrade SM to MI.

IBT: total of 8 units lave now left Osaka.
Chinese and Germans starts building HG.

3 – 925BC

Teno Library -> Dromon

Upgrade another SM -> MI.

IBT: Aztec Archer kill Elite SM.
Russians start building Sun Tzu’s. Americans start building HG.

4 – 900BC
C MI -> MI

MI –> Spearman MI 3hp
MI -> Spearman MI 3hp
AC -> Archer AC 2hp

Trade Monarchy to France for 3gpt and 14 gold.

IBT: Koreans and French starts building HG.

5 – 875BC

AC spawned


6 – 850BC
C MI -> MI

5 Spearmen again leave Osaka. I hope to lure them away and next to Teo by emptying Teo.

IBT: They fall for the lure and 4 of them move next to Teo. Roman spearman land next to Osaka and Japanese Spear/SM combo do the same shutting off the access for us, hope at least one of the stacks die next IBT.

Portugal DoW Spain

7 – 825BC

AC -> Spearman AC 1hp

Buy a worker from Japan for Monarchy

IBT: Mongols demand Feudalism, I decline their kind request.
Japanese Archer kills one defender. But both tiles next to Osaka are occupied by Japan and Rome…

8 – 800BC
C MI -> MI

Annoying situation near Osaka. Load two MI on Dromon to bypass them.

IBT India and Portugal sign peace treaty. Japanese Archer attack Osaka and dies One Roman spear disband so we can advance on Osaka.
Sumer finishes building HG.
Indians switch to GW.

9 – 775BC
Teno Dromon -> Dromon

IBT Chinese, Russians, Otto and Greeks start building Sun Tzu’s. Mongols and Vikings start building GW. New Delhi finishes the GW.

10 – 2150BC
C MI -> MI
Teo Library - Barracks
AC spawned.

Attack on Osaka
MI -> Spearman MI 2hp
MI -> Spearman MI 2hp
Osaka captured

After action report.

Osaka finally ours. Kyoto should fall as soon as we are at war with the Japanese and can move MI next to Kyoto. We have 9 of them now and that should be more than enough I guess. Only lost one turn due to the stupid behaviour id the AI. Could have attacked on turn 9 if the road had been open.

I have continued to get MI’s from C and figured we could use the other locations to generate whatever Dromons we might need.

Made a slight mistake on the final turn and moved the MP in C onto a dromon. So had to allocate some happiness. That should be back to normal with 3 scientists in two turns when the next MI is built. MP for Teo/Teno is an AC that can move between the two in case of unfriendlies landing nearby.

Japan has a thing for landing units so please beware of this when moving on Kyoto. theer will definitely be a risk of a japanese galley moving up the southern coastline.

No trading done during the last turn.

Teno will get 20 shields from forest chops in two turns and should finish the Dromon then. Alternative is to let it build something else?

Is India the next target? If so we should have enough Dromons ready to help lift our army so I guess that would have Teno build Dromons?

Another thing that annoyed me was the fact there was only two spear in Osaka. Dared not leve a couple of MI behind to save the mined bg improvement next to Teo. had I known this I would have done so now we have to redo 9 worker actions due to this. Sorry for not being a bit more audacious.

EDIT: Yes better luck with the RNG I guess, only 1 SM lost.

 

[Ronald]

Well, finally the Aztecs are gone, better late then never. Wotan

One comment: I would change the current builds

Constantinople should build a defender (pikeman in 2 tunrs or even an archer in 1 turn) to get rid of the entertainer for more science.
For the last two forest cuts in Tenochtitlan, I would rather not waste it on a dromon, better to start something more lasting, I would change the build to a marketplace.
Teotihuacan is curently building barrack, I don't think this is a priority, I would change that to marketplace as well.

Just one tactical tip: Before declaring war to Japan, ask them to remove their troops (the single spearman) from our territory. Either they refuse and declare war, that's fine because of the happiness we get before the are gone, if they don't, it is removed to threaten Teotihuacan and will be too late to defend Kyoto.

 

[klarius]

I still think Tenochtitlan should build aqueduct and be pumped up by worker merges when ready. Market doesn't help anything as we run full science and will not need the happiness before it can grow.

As soon as the troops are healed we should go for Japan. For sure try to get the declaration from them, though they shouldn't last long enough to make much difference .

We really need workers again (tile improvements around our new holdings, getting capital to 30sh and pumping up cities later). I think we should get the capital happy by lux-tax and garrison and let Teo have the grassy cow for some time to build them.
BTW, Wotan, I think the road building on the forest was okay. You can start a road before the forest is cut. If the forest goes away in time, the road will complete after only the time needed to road flat land.

 

[Wotan]

C. was a mistake as I said in my notes, I moved the MI garrison onto a dromon and thus had to add an entertainer. That was not by choice. I would say the archer in one looks as the bext choice now since we intend to keep it there as MP.

Teno building Dromon is if we want to take thew ar to India right after Japan is dealt with. Three Dromons would be able to bring 6 units per volley across. But I would prefer to have another 2 for a total of 10 MIs as the first wave. I guess I am more of a military guy than some of you? But market as an alternative is a very long term project I think.

Teo building a Barracks, that was simply an end of turn set allocation. I never really bothered to give it any thoughts since it would be discussed anyway.

I am actually quite satisfied with the capitals current shield output. There is not much needing 30 shields for some time, we are pushing out MIs for a while yet and then probably want Knights (24spt/3turns) and it can generate 24 shields now. In 12 turns or so we can build a Uni but we can easily get it to 25 to have the uni ready in 8 turns. The additional turn we can shave by hitting 28/29 I guess I would not consider the worker actions worth pursuing.

We should be able to move on Japan immediately. Two MI and a AC is wounded but there are 7 full MI and a CA capable of moving into japanese territory right now. And if the jap spear next to osaka refuse to move we need a couple of units to garrison anyway.

Edit: I would like us to turn on India as soon as we can shift our MIs north.

 

[klarius]

Getting Constantinople to 30sh is thought for 1 turn dromons and horses (good enough for home defense and can upgrade later). The other cities really have to work on infrastructure. This is our core. We cannot get a lot of science camps, so science has to come primarily from the core. We need aqueducts where appropriate, markets, courthouses, universities all the nice builder stuff.
I don't think we need a lot of dromons to go after India. There is no need to deliver the troops directly. We can reach their island in 2 turns and unload troops from the capital. Then return to our coast and load there, so the next batch can be there 2 turns later.

But one thing to remember:
If we win a battle with a dromon that means golden age and it's far to early for a GA IMO. And Gandhi has for sure boats and empty galleys or curraghs will attack.
I'm not sure how to handle this. A bunch of wars for Gandhi wouldn't be bad so his boats have other things to do. We could also go for suicide ship chaining with never having a dromon near his coast, but that might get a bit expensive.
Another idea would be to switch targets for now (Inca or Maya) and make peace with India. Move our troops over and look for a target. I have to look into the save in the evening to make up my mind.

 

[Wotan]

I would like us to consider bringing Otto in against Inca and actually gift him the cities we take there to boost his research capability. So going there first would not add to our strength as India first would do. So I am still all for India. Besides taking India would give us GW since it is in Delhi.

And yes, we need to be careful not to trigger GA.

 

[klarius]

Well, another thing I just noted .
Wotan you DoW'ed India your first turn. That means we still had a gpt payment to them .

 

[Wotan]

Just looked at your turns and saw you traded for construction in 1250BC but unfortunately you did not make a note about gpt being part of the deal. The last gpt I read about was during Ronalds turns. India were next in line as far as we were concerned for war so it felt natural to get them into fighting and start culling their arsenal. A couple of unfortunate things lead up to this as I see it. With 30 tribes in the game there is a risk this might happen again so would like to have any gpt deals mentioned in the turn reports. And I will try to double check if a tribe we are to DoW has a current deal. stupid me not to make that double check but a bit late to cry over it now. But the number of AIs in the game also makes it next to forbidding to go through the tedious job of checking each and everyone. Sorry guys, this could have been avoided if I had only checked the current deals page for India...

 

[klarius]

Well, it happened.
But let's make a general rule that we check for trades before every DoW.

And everybody, even though our trade reputation is now away probably, don't break other deals just for fun. This gives a permanent negative attitude point with every civ, not just the one you break the deal. We can afford a few points for war declarations, but not much more. We need at least one civ in the end that votes for us. We can get the usual gift, alliance and MPP stuff, but that's not enough if we play careless through the whole game.

 

[Wotan]

I sure hope it will not affect us in the UN vote, should not if managed but I am just so darn annoyed with not checking it and assuming it was not an issue. End game will hopefully come down to a war with the opponent and the rest of the AI bribed by us into the war.

 

[klarius]

The 1 point we get for that broken deal is for sure not the problem for the diplomatic victory.
But generally we should be more careful than in a quick military game.
BTW, we may consider to spare Inca. His favorite government is feudalism, which gives us 5 points more to be nasty. So if it turns out to be too difficult to get multiple civs to vote for us, because we make to many small mistakes, we still would have the opportunity to have him and 1 other civ in the end.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

You guys move fast!!!
I checked last night to find TBentley still to play his turns thinking I would have a few days left yet.
I will pick up the save and formulate a plan for my turns tonight and post the plan for your analysis.

 

[Ronald]

We need to have some military in our newly conquered cities. Especially Tenochtitlan is now extremely vulnerable. India and Egypt can drop an or two archer any time next to these cities.
We should have at least one military unit in each city and another one which can move to either city within a turn.
During the end of next turnset, education will be almost researched. A prebuild in Constantinople for immediate university should be prepared.

I agree with klarius, that Tenochtitlan should build an aqueduct before the marketplace.

Kyoto should fall in 690BC, then we could bring our troops to India, avoiding Indian ships by landing on their west coast.

Since we now know everybody, we should think about abandoning our exploring dromon. Every turn we run the risk of running into a Dutch or Indian or Egypt ship and having an unwanted GA.