SGOTM 12 - klarius

[Ronald]

On a completely unrelated note: Have you had a look at the progress graphs lately?

I'm not a very good interpreter usually but klarius is pretty advanced in this science, maybe he can get some more insights.

The fact that the graph of spooks looks the way it is, could that be that they are building tons of cheap workers before they let Constantinople grow above size 6?

 

[klarius]

A few corrections:
Spain and Korea are connected to Portugal, so that's in reality also one pretty big landmass.
Germany/Zulu is not connected to Sumeria/England.
Celts are isolated on their island.
We don't know the status of Sumeria/England versus Inca/Maya.

General on diplomacy: Don't declare too many wars. That's also a permanent negative with everyone. We rather are declared upon. The typical means for that is peace renegotiations coupled with alliances in the hope the AIs break the alliances. A few war declarations cannot be avoided, but don't make peace for short term goals. If we have a war we should use it for several diplomatic moves.

I don't see the gain in getting Rome against Portugal. They are on different landmasses and will not really do much. The idea to set Rome on India is just to occupy their navies. And if we go against India, we should have a land target for them. Easiest is Portugal where we already have an embassy and who will go to war again for free.

I don't like Zulu against Germany. They probably did war already or still are and Germany does already not look good (Berlin is size 1).
Generally if we involve sci civs in wars it should get them another civ to help.

I'm not really impressed by the poor Mayan land and Inca looks also like a lot work.

On the Persia/Babylon land mass things are a bit complicated. Currently we have:
Persia at war with Egypt.
Babylon at war with Dutch and Mongols (we had nothing to do with that )
Hittites at peace with everybody (I dislike this - they could help the sci civs a bit).

 

[Ronald]

@ klarius: I did not see the landbridge between spain and portugal, you are right.
I agree that we don't want to have too many wars at the same time. The things I mentioned are based on what makes sense from a long term perspective as a basis of decisions which ones we think have priorities immediately.
The war against India with Rome and Portugal was for me already a given, so I did not mention it again.

@ everybody: We need two decisions:
1) Are my ideas about the future size and shape of our empire and the selection of our preferrred trading partners correct?
2) If we agree on my ideas or formulate different ones, we should come up with priorities of which wars we want to initiate in the short term.

We have to decide on these issues sooner or later. Either we do it now or after the next turn set does not matter too much. Since we are among the fast playing teams so far, I would like to come to a conclusion before I play my terms.

Looking forward to discussing these matters.

 

[Ronald]

Since I have not heard anything about our pending decisions, I am not going o play this evening.
I would like to play tomorrow, but for that to happen we must have some agreement about our strategy. If we don't have that by tomorrow, I have to switch with somebody because I will have no possibility to play between thursday and next wednesday.

 

[Wotan]

Ronald, sorry about the silence but RL have been a bit demanding for the last 48 hrs. I would say that your discussions about friends and foes are basically good. there are probably things we can tweak but for your turn set nothing really revolutionary would change that. Basically we want to be the dominating power, goes without saying I guess. Then we want one or more science assistants. AI's we probably need to nurse by gifting them seleced locations to boost their research capability. Going for science AIs seems to be the logical solution and since the Inca/Maya area might be a bit too costly to develop for us maybe we want to make otto one of these? By gifting him mayan locations? Persia is probably another candidate?

then we want a "corridor" to france of our own locations maybe through Hittites and east?

But for your turnset I guess India will be a big enough bite to take on?

 

[Ronald]

But for your turnset I guess India will be a big enough bite to take on?

Sure, I can't take on more than India in the next ten turns, but since you and klarius talked about setting up more alliances, I wanted at least to get an agreement about what alliances I should set up during my turns.
Additionally I wanted to start some discussions about long term planning, how we want our empire to look in the long term. We don't need a firm decision about that now, but we should keep an eye on them.
If I don't get any contradictionary posts during tomorrow, I play my turns as good as I can along the lines I have outlined in my posts.

 

[klarius]

The problem with making detailed diplomacy plans is that we don't even have embassies on several of the islands. We don't know if there are wars already going on and which they are.

And again, I'm not so much interested in the north. My fog gazing indicates that Delhi is about the only really good city there. I would rather go Hittites, Vikings, France then.
And please note, distance isn't as important for corruption as people think. We will not reach the OCN anytime soon (if ever) so rank corruption will not be that big.

 

[Ronald]

Preflight thoughts:

The last post from klarius, where he said that the only interesting city in our West neighbourhood is Delhi and he would rather go for the Hittites made me look again.
Just for Delhi, it is not worth the effort at the moment. Go for the Hittites. Nevertheless, I will engage Rome against India to divert the Indian navy. I won't ebgage the portuguese since they have an average military compared to a weak Indian military and I don't want to change the balance of power too much on this continent.
They have some curraghs around, so avoiding a GA is an issue. To tackle that, I'm planning to move my troops via Persia. Again, there will be some Egyptian ships, so I have to be very careful.

Natural partners in crime against the Hittites are Mongolia and Persia. Persia has a weak military compared to us and they are fughting the Egyptians. So I don't want to involve them anytime before we have sufficient troops nearby.
Persia, being scientific should not be in danger of being eliminated.
The mongols are the second natural choice. The have an average military compared to us, as have the Hittites. But since I don't know how many of their troops are engaged with the Dutch, I don't want to start their war too soon.
Also the Hittites don't have iron, the mongols have in their town next to the Hittites. I definitely don't want the Mongols to loose this town.
Also I want to brin our dromon which is currently in celtic seas back for one additional transport.

Given all that: I'm going to sign a ROP with Persia, bring our troops into their territory, declare war against the Hittites about halveway through my turn and engage the mongols.

Having said all that, this are my turns:

Turn 0 (550 BC): move fogbusters, trade, change build in Kyoto from worker to library, gift consdtruction to Rome, set up alliance for monarchy and feudalsim with them against India, sign rop with Persia

Interturn: nothing

Turn 1 (530 BC): move troops, add worker to Tenochtitlan

Interturn: nothing

Turn 2 (510 BC): MM for gold and edu in 1; move troops, add worker to Tenochtitlan

Interturn: our dromon intended to come back from the Celts sunk

Turn 3 (490 BC): research edu, start aqua, build university start archer, move troops, MM constantinople for max sience and 20 shields; give cow to Teo to prepare for 2-turn worker factory; kill eqyptian archer, no GL

Interturn: nothing

Turn 4 (470 BC): move troops

Interturn: nothing

Turn 5 (450 BC): Teo builds granary, starts its life as a 2-turn worker factory, trading

Interturn: nothing

Turn 6 (430 BC): move troops, Tenochtitlan build aquaeduct, starts university

Interturn: Egypt lands a lonely archer

Turn 7 (410 BC): Teo builds worker, move troops; we lost spices; the only ones to trade with are ottomans. They want ivory + horses. I don't wantr to give away our horses. I give ivory + 1 gpt; kill archer

Interturn: nothing

Turn 8 (390 BC): kill mortally wounded egyptian archer with elite AC but loose 3 HP, DoW Hittites, alliance with Mongols

Interturn: nothing

Turn 9 (370 BC): kill 3 man chariot

Interturn: nothing

Turn 10 (350 BC): Teo builds library starts university: I don't want to leave all the fun to klarius, so I play a few more turns

Interturn: nothing

Turn 11 (330 BC) bring our troops to tarsus

Interturn: nothing, the hittites kill some mongols but leave our SOD untouched

Turn 12 (310 BC) capture Tarsus; help Persia against Egypt. We hav to help them. Both their cities are down to size 1 and we don't want to loose them before entering the next age.

I stop now for klarius to take over. We could sell theology quite profitable, but I leave that to klarius. Egypt ships could be a danger for a premature GA, so please watch carefully. Rome and India made peace last turn, they would start again for theology. Some indian ships are now near Constantinople, but we have 2 MI + 2 archers, so it should be no threat.

a picture of Karakorum when I built an embassy:


I will be travelling the next two weeks, so my involvement will be limited. Maybe I even have to skip my next turns, depending on the interenet availability.

 

[TimBentley]

I'll be out until a week from Sunday.

 

[Wotan]

progressing just fine I guess.
A few thoughts after having had a look at the save.
France is not that far away now but access is limited by naval resources and at least scandinavian lands we need to bypass or move through.
naval access would be a bit easier if we opt to take out Mongols first. easy to do since our armies will be on the border atfer having finished off hittites. Besides Ta-Tu gives us a bonus as it is accessible for naval units from both bodies of water.

Scandinavia. Do we take them out now? I guess I would not mind doing so if not for anything else just so we remove the berzerk threat.

tech, if no AI has Invention by the time we finish Astronomy.Banking as a final hope anyone will get invention, or do we acknowledge the AI is of no real help until we have been able to boost a couple of scientific tribes by location gifts?

 

[klarius]

Well, I had a little bit much to do at work this week .
But now I have time on the weekend.
I got it and intend to play tomorrow.

I don't see that we have to take out Mongols, but we can consider it. Currently the way Tarsus-Hattusas (after we have it ) is good enough for me. It will cost 1 turn more for slow units, but going through Ta-Tu needs more boats, to exploit the potential faster transport.

Yes, I think we should take Scandinavia. I'm favoring declaring on them soon and ally France, so we already get some old stuff of France out of the way.

When we get to astronomy, it will be more than 50 turns after the possibility to go for invention for five tribes (that many I had with feudalism and engineering).
So invention should be available. But that's about it, what we can expect. Really no chance for gunpowder from the AI before we need it, unless we side track very far.

When invention is available, we should give out the techs up to education for the chance that somebody researches banking for us. But other than that it seems we cannot expect any required techs from the AI, as we will be faster researching.

 

[Wotan]

The Mongols is a simple "if we are not in position to move on the vikings but want something to do while preparing for that" idea. Instead of waiting and putting the army on hold we could put it to use. We know from the embassy pic that Karakorum is pretty much empty and it and Ta-Tu is within spitting distance when we have taken the last Hittite city. So if we think we will ever take the mongols I would say if the conditions are favourable we should do it now.

 

[klarius]

The save
Summary:
Captured Hattusas. Started a few wars. Traded a bit. Got our first leader.
One of the diplomatic actions backfired a bit. France destroyed Vikings very quickly and we are now at war with France (earlier than I wanted).
As transports are missing, we are indeed going for Mongols currently.
We have astronomy and invention. The AI came up with invention on the last turn only - 50 turns after they had the ability to research.
Research set to gunpowder. No use waiting on the AI.

urn log:
Turn 0:
MM our cities. Quite a bit to do for so few.
Change build in Osaka to harbor.

Make a bunch of embassies:

Spoiler :

As expected: Paris is by far the best capital in the game. France would also be the best researcher.
Look around diplomacy (very tedious with this many civs). No war we didn't start
Make a bunch of RoP treaties, just to be nice.
Decide for war on Scandinavia now. Also war on Iroquois.
I ally France versus Vikings for gpt. Gpt back for thelogy.
I also ally Celts and give them some tech. Idea is Vikings having naval battles.

I ally Russia and Greece against Iroquois for gpt and the sell Theology.
Idea is that they attack from both sides and split Iroqois cities between them.
I still don't like that we just let India coming. I ally Rome for 70gpt and get 60gpt back for Theology.
I also ally Maya and Ottoman. I hope this will get these pesky Indian galleys under control.
I get 2 workers from Persia for Theology. Then look around for some other deals and gifts.
I get also an alliance with Sumeria against India (for gpt) and sell thelogy for gpt and dyes.
Dyes allows us to put everyone in Constantinople to work.
We have a few less gpt now, but we brought some gold in circulation, which might mean that some of the AI will increase their science rate.
Especially if they get rid of some of their units.

IBT:
India lands 2 horses and an archer.
Teo worker->worker.

Turn 1 290BC:
Kill the Indian invasion.
Kill a few roaming Hittites. Lose one AC.f

Turn 2 270BC:
Bombard an Egyptian galley near Teo.
Note: take care to not kill a galley with lethal Dromon bombard. That would start the GA.
Have to hide the Dromons in Teo.
Sell education to France and Greece, where there is quite a bit gpt.

IBT:
Egypt galley runs home crying. A Hittite counter costs a MDI.

Turn 3 250BC:
Further fights in the open with Hittites. Get a leader -> AC army. Will fill it with 2 only to keep it caravel transportable.

IBT:
The rampaging French forces have destroyed the Vikings. Ouch, that was quick.

Turn 4 230:
More fighting.

IBT:
The rampaging Babylon forces destroy dutch.

Turn 5 210BC:
Our rampaging forces destroy Hittites.
Let's go trading. Furs from Greece for Ivory and wines.
I make peace with Egypt (I hate her galleys).
Gems for Theology.
Lincoln: Alliance against France for gpt. Silks and gpt back for Theology.
Ivory to every sci civ for a few coins.
We have currently 8 luxes. I don't want to really go for France before astronomy (and will not get any ships there).
So I set the capital to heroic epic for the moment (army won a battle at Hattusas).
It looks like Mongols will have to suffer, though that might get tough - they have lots of pikes.

Turn 6 190BC:
I pop-rush courthouse in Hattusas. Move a few troops.

Turn 7 170BC:
Teno uni->court.
Osaka harbor->aqueduct.
Hattusas court->library.
Boot order to Mongols - they declare.
Ally Persia.

Turn 8 150BC:
First skirmishes with Mongols.
Tarsus library->uni.

Turn 9 130BC:
A few Mongols. Lose an AC.

IBT: Mongols land an archer next to Tarsus.

Turn 10 110BC:
Astronomy in.
A few more battles with Mongols. A killer pike takes out two MDI.
Invention is available (took exactly 50 turns).
Get it from Korea for Theology.

I think we should continue for Paris. Mongols can be taken on now, with Ta-Tu falling soon, as we still miss transport capacity.
I would now upgrade also the Dromon near Hattusas and show only with caravels on sea.
Question is, if we finish heroic epic, or if we declare this a prebuild for Cops. Cops will start the golden age, because of MoM in Kyoto. I thought that we delay our golden age at least to the time Paris comes on-line. But I'm not quite sure. Because I messed up the diplomacy , we have no chance to give astronomy to France, so they build it.
But we still can delay Cops, but should then not give away astronomy. That means that the chances that anybody still researches banking for us are tiny.
I would say build HE now and go for France. We want a leader there for sure, so HE might tip the RNG (or not ).
Don't give away astronomy currently, everything else is fair game (doesn't look as anybody can get better than 50 turns research - except maybe France).

Reminder: I did a lot of trades. I doubt I denoted all in the log. Check existing trades before making war or peace.

It looks also as if I misjudged Maya (they had nearly nothing in their capital). They managed to take a city from India. So we might never take Delhi from India. If so we just take it from somebody else in due time.

I intended the 2 workers near Teno to merge there. Teo could still build a few after the caravel to support Hittiteland.

 

[Wotan]

Not the development we had hoped for but still, it is progressing fairly well. TimB will be off for a week starting today. Question if if he want to (have the time?) play a turnset or if I should jump in now?

Finish off Mongols, gear up for a campaign against the French.

Will look at the save later today and post any final thoughts before playing (if TimB is not playing). And I will make sure we do not break any deals...


EDIT:
Have had a look at the save and am prepared to play the next turn set if TimB is absent.

Will finish the HE in Const but switch to military after that. France will cost us so better have steady stream of units moving towards the front for while now.

 

[klarius]

Well, I understood it as Tim is out from the date of his post till next Sunday, so it's your's, Wotan.

It looks now pretty likely to me that the AIs will stay on 50 turn research through all of the game. If they don't have war they choke on unit support and if they have war they pop-rush their cities down (look at Persia ).

So if we want to have a chance for another MA tech, we would have to set somebody on banking for a 50 turns run, while we do all other required techs. That would mean gift them everything we have and hope for the RNG to switch it towards banking.
We should probably do it, but it's already now difficult to register all naval movements and watch for friend/foe.
With astronomy in the wild it gets really troublesome as there's no chance to see caravels in advance.

 

[Wotan]

Turn log


0 – 110BC Preflight
Nada

IBT: The Mongols want to talk; peace is our time they say. My response is not a chance. They reciprocate by allowing an Archer to die trying to attack our AC just inside their borders, AC 2hp left.
Koreans and Mayans starts building Sistine. NBut it is a bit futile since Paris finish building it now.

1 – 90BC
Teo Caravel -> Worker

Upgrade Dromon to Caravel.
Disperse the Barb Camp.

IBT: Iroquois and Russia sign a peace treaty.
Maya, Greeks, Otto, Sumerians and Russians start building Leo’s. Maya have now destroyed the Indians.

2 - 70BC
Peace with Celts for alliance vs. French and Feudalism.

IBT: French start building Leo’s.

3 – 50BC
Kyoto Harbour -> Caravel
Constantinople HE -> MI
Teo Worker -> Worker

MI -> Pikeman Pikeman 3hp
MI -> Pikeman MI 2hp
Elite MI -> Pikeman(3hp) MI 4hp
MI - > Archer MI promote 4hp Oh, if I only had reversed the order. Maybe a leader?


IBT: Aztec Archer kill Elite SM.
Russians start building Sun Tzu’s. Americans start building HG.

4 – 30BC
Teno Courthouse -> Harbour

Assault on Ta-Tu
MI –> Pikeman Pikeman 4hp.
MI -> Pikeman Pikeman 3hp
Army -> Pikeman 4hp Army 12hp
Army -> Pikeman 3hp Army 10hp
Ta-Tu captured.

IBT: Mayans land 2 LBs and 1 HM near Constantinople.

5 – 10BC
C MI -> MI
Teo Worker -> Worker

MI -> HM MI3hp HM retreat
MI-> LB MI 2hp
LB -> LB Mayan LB 1hp
LB -> LB 1hp LB 4hp

6 – 10AD
Teno Harbour - Caravel

Battle of Karakorum
Army –> Pikeman Army 5hp
MI –> Pikeman Pikeman 5hp
Elite MI -> Pikeman Pikeman 5hp
Elite MI _> Pikeman(3hp) Pikeman 3hp
AC -> Pikeman 3hp Pikeman 3hp AC 1hp
AC -> Pikeman 3hp AC promotes 6hp
AC -> Archer AC promotes 6hp

And the “they deserve it” pic crashes the game. I hate this bug.

LB -> HM 1hp LB 4hp

7 – 30AD
Hattusas Library -> MI
Constantinople MI -> MI
Teo Worker -> Worker

Disperse a Barb.Camp.

8 – 50AD
C AC generated

IBT: Mayan LB land next to Constantinople. France has researched Chivalry and starts building Knights Templar.

9 – 70AD
Teno Caravel -> Caravel
Kyoto Caravel -> Caravel
Constantinople MI -> MI
Teo Worker -> Worker

MI -> LB MI 4hp

Land the Army plus 3 elite AC next to Trondheim.

IBT: French land Spearman and Warrior next to Karakorum.

10 – 90ADTrondheim size 1 and with Vikings gone I’m not sure they have any culture to avoid it being destroyed if captured.

AC -> Spearman AC promotes 5hp
AC -> Warrior AC 3hp

Renegotiate the Dyes deal with Sumeria. We now pay Wines and 11 gpt.

IBT: Babylon and Egypt sign a peace treaty. Babylon starts building Leo’s.

11 – 110AD
Constantinople MI -> MI
Teo Worker -> Worker

Battle of Bergen
Army -> Elite Spearman -> Army 8hp
Army -> Reg Pike Army 3hp
Elite AC –> Archer(2hp) AC 2hp and Belisarius appear
Bergen captured

Elite AC -> MI AC 5hp
Elite AC -> Spearman AC 4hp

IBT: French Archer in Trondheim dies attacking our MI’s on the mountain. French MI move next to Bergen. 2 Mayan LB’s land next to Constantinople.

12 – 130AD
Teno Caravel -> Caravel
Teo Worker -> Worker

AC(5hp) -> MI AC 2hp
MI -> LB MI 1hp
MI -> LB MI 2hp

After action report.

I played until Gunpowder. Several deals ended this turn too so it seemed a natural point to break at. Research set to Chemistry until further notice.

No trading done in the final turn. Lots of opportunities though so this should be addressed before hitting return.

Managed to get a Leader in the battle for Bergen. Pretty convenient I think since we want to build the FP in Paris.

Ship Chain is almost in place from Teo/Teno and to French lands. A few additional Caravels and we can pump units through it every turn Adding two more Caravels will make it possible to get them from Constantinople without reloading at Teo but that might be a bit overkill? Have dot marked the transfer points. Now loaded are two Workers and a MI. Workers could join Ta-Tu, or not? MI either help guard the Hittite/Mongol lands, there are 2 AC currently.

Builds, lots of them can and probably should change. I have often just set something when I knew it would go past my turn set. Eg. Hattasus can finish a MI next turn (will add 1 shield I hope when it grows) or change to a Uni? Teo might run another few Workers and send them to join towns overseas?

Have not dared attack Bergen. As I understand it it will be razed if we take it at size 1 since the vikings are gone and there is no active AI culture there now. We need to wait for it to reach size 2 before taking it.

 

[klarius]

I had only a short look into the save.
A few ideas what to do.

Pillage the iron near Trondheim in preturn and then ignore the city for the time being. We cannot know if it autorazes (depends if there is still a Viking citizen).
We should attack France from 2 sides. That gets the AI totally confused . So we should land troops near Orleans in the fog.
Set the governor in Bergen so the town doesn't revolt if the resistance should be quelled.

For techs I would recommend to sell astronomy to Babylon. They will not pay much, but they should be able to get chivalry from France for it. This serves two purposes. First we can then trade chivalry + some French money from Babs for gunpowder.
Second France gets astronomy and has another wonder to build, when the current wonders finish.

Before selling astronomy to Babs I would make an alliance with them against Iroquois and add some gpt (maybe ~100gpt). We should get it back for astro, as Babs have a few free gpt now. So it shouldn't cost us anything. If Babs make peace prematurely we gain some gold.

I would like to get education around. I would look there also for alliances payed with gpt and gpt back for edu.
Especially, I think Maya need something other to do than to send troops to our capital. I wouldn't be sad if this involves Rome, as they could back stab us with pretty nasty invasions (there might still be legionaries in attack stacks, which are difficult to kill). But also as least one land enemy (Portugal, Inca). They might kill another one, but these are no real losses.

 

[klarius]

Ok, a bit more. The famous micromanaging .
First don't build caravels. Build dromons and upgrade them for 30g.
MM in Kyoto is suboptimal anyway (hill instead of mined grass), but can be turned to more food and commerce while finishing a dromon next turn. Teno can finish a dromon in 2 turns. So with the upgrade the caravels are available the same turn.
Kyoto should really work on courthouse and uni soon.
I'm not so convinced by the build in Ta-Tu. It should build a harbor first IMO, so it can work the rocks tile.

Constantinople is configured for to many shields currently - you can gain a coin.

Hattusas is worth a uni IMO, though we might want to finish the current MDI.

I would like to have the final few embassies.

We are still paying Greece for an alliance with Iroquois. The deal is up and can be canceled any time. But we could look if we can sell them a tech before we cancel, but not before the Babylon maneuver is successfully finished next turn. If we get chivalry, we should also give this out to our friends.

 

[Wotan]

The Dromon/Caravel thingy, yes, I have banged my head thrice against the keyboard for not thinking about that.

But the others are not mistakes really. Kyoto: The non-worked mined BG just got mined this last turn. And as I said in my notes I had not done all mming in my final turn. Pretty late when I finished my turns so hasted to post and go to bed. Constantinople made 22 shields last turn but that was courtesy of Mayan galleys and the landing archer so the tiles I had worked, coast and the ivory, was moved to two mined bgs, making 22 shields instead of 20. I moved the citizen back to the ivory but noticed the surplus of 22 and thought there is possibly extra gold to make apart from moving the last citizen back to a coast. All builds that ran past my turn set are as I said "should change", like Ta-Tu, never planned it would really build a ship.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm back , or nearly back, and can start playing on Friday or any later day. So, Klarius, please fit me into the rotation wherever you think best.

Good-looking progress so far.