SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[ZPV]

Traps to watch out for
1. DoPing Gandhi and the others. It turns out that this is a ROYAL PITA. We might play ourselves into a situation where we're fighting off a major SoD (=forget a medal). Furthermore, if we screw up the DoPs, the AIs will all max out their common war plusmods and those carry on through the game for all intents and purposes.*** Without this testing, we'd have no idea about this. We're starting in an ALWAYS-WAR-type situation. No joking matter.
1.A. Did you know? If we don't get Gandhi to DoP before he meets Stalin, de Gaulle, and/or Mao, we may miss our chance to get him to trade with us in any foreseeable future, because we might remain his WE forever or until we give him a humongous tech. I didn't know this before testing, but now I do.
2. Fallout MM is complicated and unusual.
3. Both our development and tech pace are non-standard.
4. Gandhi starting with Alphabet is non-standard.
All of this takes getting used to. I don't see any way to learn this stuff other than testing.

Where to settle?
I'm anything but convinced that the coast is better than in place. The jury's out for me. Especially if we want to guarantee getting the AIs to DoP. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any good way to do that other than...beelining Alpha!?!?! Have you found a better way?

REX
Again, not sure what we want to do, no matter what we find out down the road. Pure REX? REX+GLH? REX+Oracle? All three? Only GLH+Oracle, then REX? This is a very complicated start, imo.

My thought now is, forget GLH. It's not worth the amount of trouble we're putting ourselves through. So instead, let's stick with somewhere we can build a worker in 15 turns. More testing? Definitely. I'll do some more thinking about peace, and what we will actually have to pay.

 

[LowtherCastle]

bbp, your save looks excellent. How about some more details on your opening.

 

[babybluepants]

Didn't take any notes... You mean in terms of MM? I don't think it was that good in the initial stages actually. Haven't figured out how to stay ahead of the unhealthiness issue. I think I opened with something like worker/WB/warrior/worker. Getting the second worker quickly has been the staple of my openings so far. I think it's huge. I delayed the settler a bit here (library first), but the second city in this pattern is quite quick, since it borrows the cow immediately.

Diplo: I had to wait 'till Currency to get peace with Gandhi, then gifted Wtg-Math for OB, traded COL for Alpha and got peace with the AIs who had Wtg by that point. Then I gifted COL to Roos for OB. I had a 1t window for OB with Stalin, but missed it. Anyway, it was possible to get.

Stalin's axe+archer stack killed my initial warrior early, and made it to about stone around the turn I settled the horse city. The peace deal opened up next turn - so I was quite lucky there. Also got lucky with the GS - it was born at about 60%.

 

[mystyfly]

Hi guys I can't really discuss a whole lot or run test games atm as I have a lot on my plate with my studies at the ETH Zurich which just started and changing appartment at the beginning of october. Will try to chime in more when things are settled a bit.

 

[Mitchum]

I just tried a quick test settling N+NE researching Fishing -> BW and building warrior -> WB (whip at 2). It seems that this would be faster than worker first, but it's hard to tell. My thinking is that I would have the fish netted earlier than the "worker first" option would have the cows pastured. I would then be building the worker using an improved fish tile and would also have a unit out exploring a LOT sooner. In addition, one worker was able to keep up with the growth for quite a while since I was getting my food from the fish (and then clams) rather than the cows.

Do we put a premium on early map intelligence? Are we now thinking to forego the Oracle and shoot for an early GLH (which only nets us two +1 traderoutes until we can get a few stinking OBs or an off-continent city or two).

EDIT: I just found out that I have to go to Vega$ tomorrow for work, so my ability to test will be limited. I should be able to keep up with the thread though. Where is everyone else with their testing? Things seem to be stalled a bit.

 

[babybluepants]

Some data:

Turn 6 - Gandhi DoP cost 365g (pop 2, archer not finished yet)

Add BW (Our power from 4 to 12) --> 270g
Add BW + Archery (Our power from 4 to 18) --> 175g
Give Gandhi BW (His power from 14 to 22) --> 390g
Our pop 2 --> 350g
Our pop 3 --> 350g
Our pop 4 --> 335g
Gandhi pop 4 --> 370g
Gandhi pop 8 --> 375g
Gandhi 2 cities --> 375g

+1t --> 365g
+2t --> 365g

If I'm following ZPV's formula correctly, pop and # of cities should be linear and insignificant, which they are. Our power should dramatically reduce the cost, in non-linear fashion - that's almost right. Turns at war should reduce it noticeably, but don't seem to.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Turns at war should reduce it noticeably, but don't seem to.

Very interesting on the drastic cost dip with BW+Archery. I bet turns at war don't lower the cost because he's building units and we aren't.

 

[LowtherCastle]

ZPV, sorry if you already stated this: How do you determine war success for G defeating our warriors? +3 per defeat?

 

[Silu]

I can look into the price of peace as a second opinion - just need to install Civ4 on my new computer among other things to get the code flowing

Again, consider that it's possible that all the diving is for naught if the custom mod (or the way the save has been set up) has rigged this in some way.

 

[Soirana]

I can look into the price of peace as a second opinion - just need to install Civ4 on my new computer among other things to get the code flowing

Again, consider that it's possible that all the diving is for naught if the custom mod (or the way the save has been set up) has rigged this in some way.

Well, i got official permission to haunt OSS as master eraser [assuming you do not mind ofcourse].

Can't finf post but iirc staff clearly stated special mod is basically Buffy with few lines of fallout code modified... that could affect some stuff but very unlikely to be involved in basic mechanics....

edit: must have been this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9629000&postcount=145

 

[Silu]

Okay - but I guess still the save can still be set up in a non-standard way, such as having turns_known be more than the elapsed game turns, or war successes off-mark and similar stuff like that.

 

[babybluepants]

Hey Soirana.

Settled NNE, goals were:
1) GLH
2) Peace (all but 2), OB (Gandhi and Roos)
3) Expansion
4) Circumnavigation (failed)

I just tried the same thing settling NW, but the GLH was gone in 1120 BC. Try again later...

Here it is...

 

[babybluepants]

Very interesting on the drastic cost dip with BW+Archery. I bet turns at war don't lower the cost because he's building units and we aren't.

Not really, based on the formula. You're misunderstanding, though. Those values are all WB-generated on the same turn, with all other things being equal.

Let's see if Silu and ZPV collectively can figure out the peace cost... For now, I guess, we're going on the assumption that the test save is accurate.

 

[babybluepants]

A few notes from playing close to 1 AD:

1) We'll most likely have a tough time with wonders and first-tos, even beyond the early stuff. TGL is maybe doable with marble and a beeline, but Currency-COL-CS beeline seems more prudent, both for easing REX and for trade value. 1 GS for academy is ok, but getting another for a Philo bulb might be tough unless we luck out on some low odds with a wonder present.

2) We should keep track of the gifting/trading very carefully. There should be some techs to give away in the late BC's, but they probably won't give any diplo value with the likes of Mao and DG. Also, the thresholds for additional +1 are steep and even a big gift may not be enough.

3) Getting trade network asap is critical. I've been slow in my tests, and I can't get resource-trade plusmods in BC's, which hurts. In addition to no international TRs.

4) Like LC said a while ago, build lots of workers quickly. Again, I haven't had quite enough in testing. We need cities 3,4&5 to have good food, be set up in advance and have a full spectrum of tiles to work asap. Since we're so slow to get going, getting quick production from future cities are very important. Settlers are dirt cheap here, anyway, so we shouldn't be starting them unless we have the ability to send them straight to a set spot.

Next step in testing should be to place an AI (probably Gandhi for now) close by, and see when the attacks come.

 

[Soirana]

Settlers are dirt cheap here, anyway, so we shouldn't be starting them unless we have the ability to send them straight to a set spot.

Next step in testing should be to place an AI (probably Gandhi for now) close by, and see when the attacks come.

How about starting settler for Ghandi?

sure it is 100 hammers to throw away [and a bit land too]. on other hand with early tech trades you probably get better returns than oracle for minor tech which you use to give away anyway....

On test he is willing to take city despite current distance...

 

[babybluepants]

What do you mean "despite current distance"? A city near our land?! I wouldn't think he would...

This didn't even occur to me, I guess 'cause the AI are so far away in our test. I think an early sacrificial settler for Gandhi is definitely an option, assuming we can negotiate distance. We are seriously production-poor, but this beats having to build axes to defend, and early trading is huge.

Would the other leaders take it?

We'll also probably want a settler for Stalin later on, btw, as that may be the only way to open borders.

 

[Mitchum]

What do you mean "despite current distance"? A city near our land?! I wouldn't think he would...

This didn't even occur to me, I guess 'cause the AI are so far away in our test. I think an early sacrificial settler for Gandhi is definitely an option, assuming we can negotiate distance. We are seriously production-poor, but this beats having to build axes to defend, and early trading is huge.

Would the other leaders take it?

We'll also probably want a settler for Stalin later on, btw, as that may be the only way to open borders.

In my test game, Gandhi was willing to take my second city for peace. So we should know early on of this is a possibility.

 

[bcool]

I also noticed that babybluepants was using LC's test game in his latest posted test. I think it is easier to get peace in his test save since the AI have almost no where to expand and thus their tech rate is slow.
In my latest test game I removed quite a bit of the fallout in the wilderness, so the AI without ecology still can settle several productive cities.

I think it is likely that the other AI have at least some land near them in the real game that they could expand to without worrying about as much fallout as LC had in his test game.

Edit: this lack of good spots to settle in LC's test game might make the AI more willing to accept a city for peace.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Not really, based on the formula. You're misunderstanding, though. Those values are all WB-generated on the same turn, with all other things being equal.

I was referring to: "Turns at war should reduce it noticeably, but don't seem to." G's power rises pretty quickly, especially compared to ours, so turns at war probably have a minimal effect, since the power has the stronger effect.

 

[babybluepants]

I was referring to: "Turns at war should reduce it noticeably, but don't seem to." G's power rises pretty quickly, especially compared to ours, so turns at war probably have a minimal effect, since the power has the stronger effect.

True for real game-play. Other variables don't rise in my sample data, however (he's still teching Agri and building his first archer at that point). Should we not see at least about a 10% drop over 2t, all else being equal?

I also noticed that babybluepants was using LC's test game in his latest posted test.

You guys posted too many test saves. Is there a current one that we're all using now?