SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

I would guess unhealthiness is not that sure in real save? Some tiles must be unrevealed?

I believe the save has every tile except one with fallout, so that's it. I've been testing assuming the worst.

 

[Soirana]

I don't think we need the third worker that soon. Fish City will work the gold mine for 9 turns, while that worker is scrubbing the cows. Then Fish City will work the fish nets for 6 turns (4fpt because of ) to grow to pop2. Fish City maybe waits a few turns for the ivory, but it can always work the gold again, or whatever. Anyway, I'd rather have Fish CIty losing a fpt or two or three than waiting to exist at all.

xpost with Soirana

You still need to rice for growing cap at anything beyound size four in reasonable time. For me it is either settler>worker or worker>settler. not exactly sure which is best.

 

[LowtherCastle]

You still need to rice for growing cap at anything beyound size four in reasonable time. For me it is either settler>worker or worker>settler. not exactly sure which is best.

It's not a question we need to answer now anyway, right?

Take a look if you want, but I think you'll see that researching pottery after fishing and building the granary after settler is better than the rice. Even with -1 the granary adds 2x4fpt=8fpt without having to work the rice to get it. The rice adds 5fpt+2fpt=7fpt and we have to work the lousy rice to get it and we have to research agri. But we won't have -1 because we'll also get the fish before the rice is done, so the granary actually gives us 10fpt without having to work the lousy, insect-infested rice and research agri. Oh...and dd I mention that the rice also has horsefly larvae in it...

On top of all that, by building the granary instead of a worker, we grow to pop5 in time to work the gold mine, so there's more coins to boot.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Soirana, what's the absolute freaking fastest you can get the CS-slinghot from this save? (Assuming no trades from AIs)

 

[babybluepants]

Worker > Settler. Unless I'm missing something, LC's plan wastes worker turns by rushing to clear fallout for second city before improving N gold, then going back to gold, then going back to get cow and ivory. It worked better before, when we didn't know about horse, but now we have too many worker actions early. Am I wrong?

I think we should improve everything for capital, then clear city site and improve cow > ivory, while a third worker connects rice. I'll post some saves of my current test run, when I get home from work...

Let's hold off on playing 'till tmr. I'm not sure why this stuff is causing such a stir. Can we all just clearly post saves of what we think is optimal? Maybe Library completion > second city founding > all visible resources improved?

Edit: x-post

 

[LowtherCastle]

Worker > Settler. Unless I'm missing something, LC's plan wastes worker turns by rushing to clear fallout for second city before improving N gold, then going back to gold, then going back to get cow and ivory. It worked better before, when we didn't know about horse, but now we have too many worker actions early. Am I wrong?

My current plan:

Worker1: MinesGoldNNE-ScrubsFIshCity-ScrubsPasturesFishCityCow-ScrubsCampsFCIvory
Worker2: MinesGoldNNE-RoadsGoldN-ScrubsMinesGoldN

No back and forth. Everything dovetails nicely. When Fish City switches from gold to fish, MOscow is at pop5 and works both golds. The horse tile didn't confuse anything. It just sped us up by about two turns.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mitchum, could you please include in your PPP, events that would make you interrupt your turnset, such as meeting someone, etc.?

 

[Mitchum]

Mitchum, could you please include in your PPP, events that would make you interrupt your turnset, such as meeting someone, etc.?

Absolutely. I will include the following as reason to stop:

1. Meet an AI unit.
2. See an AI city in the fog.
3. DoP with Gandhi becomes an option.
4. Others?

I feel like were at a standoff between MAX FOOD, TEST 3 and BBP's test which I think is a combination of the two. Once we can summarize the differences between the three and make a decision, I will update my PPP and hopefully get the game moving again...

 

[Soirana]

Soirana, what's the absolute freaking fastest you can get the CS-slinghot from this save? (Assuming no trades from AIs)

Arround 1000BC although it does include doing bunch of stupid things like working coast in second city.

And definetely with no chance for GLH.

Since we are not putting second gold online fast at any rate i started toying with making settler at size three. That variant has some charm

 

[Soirana]

Absolutely. I will include the following as reason to stop:

1. Meet an AI unit.
2. See an AI city in the fog.
3. DoP with Gandhi becomes an option.
4. Others?

I feel like were at a standoff between MAX FOOD, TEST 3 and BBP's test which I think is a combination of the two. Once we can summarize the differences between the three and make a decision, I will update my PPP and hopefully get the game moving again...

border pop? i feel all our tests play exactly same up to that point anyway.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What's with all the warrior builds? Do some AIs not have archery? They don't build warriors in any tests I've done. Did Erkon nerf Archery to protect us early on? If so, what accounts for the +6 power instead of Archery. Any ideas? Can anyone think of something other thanTW + warrior for Stalin's +6K? I doubt he built a military academy...?

Okay, all AIs do have archery, because in the real save, when we greet them they all threaten us with their archers. So those +2K power jumps are really weird. Hard to believe they're not building archers and scouts don't give them any power points. As for Stalin's +6K, I said I doubt he built the military academy, despite this post by bcool:

sacrificed 18 warriors to each AI to get 97 war weariness I saw in real game, but this gave some of the AI a great general (which I deleted).

I'm still doubtful, but this clearly changes the picture a bit...:

Spoiler :

SO now we know what Stalin got...

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

lurker's comment: That doesn't sound too good... (not that starting in a nuclear wasteland looked easy but it's getting more and more interesting )

 

[Soirana]

Okay, all AIs do have archery, because in the real save, when we greet them they all threaten us with their archers. So those +2K power jumps are really weird. Hard to believe they're not building archers and scouts don't give them any power points.

does barracks give any soldier points?

 

[LowtherCastle]

does barracks give any soldier points?

Yes, 3K. The problem is that he got 6K in 1t and couldn't have finished 2 builds (rax+archer) on the same turn. I don't see any other possibilities than TW+warrior(4K+2K) or MilAcad(6K), assuming he had archery(6K) already, which we can't test without a save with him talking before T9.

 

[LowtherCastle]

lurker's comment: That doesn't sound too good... (not that starting in a nuclear wasteland looked easy but it's getting more and more interesting )

Hopefully he's isolated, like on an island. In any case, I think we want lasting peace with him.

 

[LowtherCastle]

My testing shows we basically have three variants:
1. Test 3 (Mitchum): warrior1(T30), warrior2(T35), Fish City (T50), MoscowPop5(T57)
2. MaxGrowthOptimized2: warrior1(T32), warrior2(T37), Fish City(T50), MoscowPop5(T55)
3. MaxGrowthOptimized1: warrior1(T32), warrior2(T37), Fish City(T49), MoscowPop5(T55), works goldN one turn later

Summary:
1. Test3 gets our two warriors out 2t each sooner, but Moscow grows to pop5 2t later. Requires Writing-TW.
2. MaxGrowth can get Fish City done a turn sooner by improving both gold tiles 1t later. Can tech TW-Writing.

MaxGrowthOptimized: After the second worker is done, we don't work the horses until T40. Then we work the horses, grow to pop4 on T42 and finish the library on T43. This allows us to build two warriors, completed on T32 and T37. (see T40 save attached)

FINAL CONCLUSION: If we research Writing-TW, then all variants are the same until wkr2 is complete.

 

[Soirana]

Yes, 3K. The problem is that he got 6K in 1t and couldn't have finished 2 builds (rax+archer) on the same turn. I don't see any other possibilities than TW+warrior(4K+2K) or MilAcad(6K), assuming he had archery(6K) already, which we can't test without a save with him talking before T9.

Do we really care?

It could have been anything - guided missile, starting without archery and teching it... Military academy

As for 2k bumps isn't this normal for techs like mining and animal husbandry? Mining looks particulary suspicious

[Although it surely must not be grenadier these give more soldier points.]

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think it's useful to keep track of what the AIs are teching and building, and if possible, to understand better what sort of land they're operating with. This may be possible in this scenrio, though it's normally not. This will hopefully give us a better idea of what they're doing with wonders.

As for mining, the first 2K jump happened T5, when no one completed a tech. Then on T9, there's another 2k jump independent of Stalin and only Stalin completed a tech that turn. T10, de Gaulle completed a tech, so that could be mining, but then there's a mystery as to which five AIs have fishing, especially if Stalin researched TW.

 

[babybluepants]

Interesting. Yeah, he definitely got a Mil Acad. Have you summarized the demo data in some way? Could I have the spreadsheets or whatever, just so I'm not starting from scratch?

Your plan for T55 sounds good. An extra worker obviously won't pay off by then, so it's hard to evaluate. I can't really complain against growing to 5 asap, when we have 5 good resources to work, though.

I think we can definitely advance to where the second worker completes at least. It diverges by working cow instead of horse after that? I'm fine with that, it's not very different from what I've been doing.

 

[Mitchum]

SO now we know what Stalin got...

Do we know for sure that Stalin knows Military Science? Isn't it possible that he just started with a stack of Grenadiers in his capital?