SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

@shyuhe,
I'm not sure we need Unis anymore. A forge that takes 'till T+5 to build is questionable, as well.
Are we thinking of converting GP Farm into production mode or not? I see you're building a bunch of workers in Bananas...
Edit: xpost. Agree w bcool - when are we building up for Stalin? It would be kinda ideal if we could take him by launch date and use those troops in California and/or west America. Maybe impossible at this stage?
Edit2: Agree on Bahamas, as well.
edit3: yes to RSI in London
 
I'll have a PPP through rocketry up shortly, unless you guys want me to go longer.

I think you should plan to play until 2 turns before the completion of Apollo. This will give us flexibility to build up OF hammers if/where needed for space ship builds.

Regarding RIs, make sure that adding 2 additional scientists in many cities doesn't mess up your GPP plan.

Can we use the cities on bcool's island for the entire Stalin strike force? I'm not sure that we really need the extra 8 exp points we'd get from Moscow's settled GGs. Our odds will be very high with marines vs. longbows. :D Having all units and boats built in one place would simplify the logistics quite a bit. If this military buildup slows down research (i.e. not building wealth AND the extra gpt cost of all the extra units similar to the muskets you guys want to delete in India ;)), I'm not sure we should start it just yet...
 
The wealth/research is shorthand for whichever of the two is appropriate. Sorry I got lazy.

@bcool - 1 turn stasis chamber doesn't help our launch speed because the casings will all take 4 turns to complete from when we finish composites (which is the tech right before genetics right now). Unless someone has a better research tree, we'll have genetics(2)+stasis chamber(2) turns to complete 5 casings. I don't see how we can push 5 cities to have enough base hammers to finish a 1200 hammer part in 3 turns (need 115 base hammers). We would need to overflow some 80-90 hammers into the casing to finish them in 3 turns.

Vijay slotted a forge to grow. I guess it's not really necessary - we just need to build lots of workers in India. We can then ship them up to America for the final scrubbing.

Moscow can start building marines in T+3, once Siberia starts building Apollo. We can add one or two more of the core minor cities to build some marines as well so that we'll have 10-15 marines. I'll ship the idling Chinese spy to Stalin in preparation for the invasion. He won't be able to land until 1 turn before we declare though.

The Bananas workers are for general terraforming - Orleans needs some work, and GP farm can use some work as well. The more shops we have in minor cities, the more wealth they can build to keep our slider up.

Also, where is the third chop for Siberia coming from? I only counted two forests in its bfc although I could be blind. The two northern forests will yield very few (if any) hammers for Siberia.
 
Also, I can play through rocketry + 2 turns whenever you guys are ok with the PPP. I can play later tonight though, so feel free to post more comments.

@bbp, I forgot, the university should pay off in 10 turns. I'm ok with skipping it in favor of more wealth earlier though (as it'll free up more RSI builds).
 
@bcool - 1 turn stasis chamber doesn't help our launch speed because the casings will all take 4 turns to complete from when we finish composites (which is the tech right before genetics right now). Unless someone has a better research tree, we'll have genetics(2)+stasis chamber(2) turns to complete 5 casings. I don't see how we can push 5 cities to have enough base hammers to finish a 1200 hammer part in 3 turns (need 115 base hammers). We would need to overflow some 80-90 hammers into the casing to finish them in 3 turns.

OK. So the plan should be to finish all parts on Genetics +2 turns? Is that doable? If so, then the best way to improve our launch date is to pull in Genetics if at all possible. What is your current estimate for when Genetics will be done (knowing it's hard to predict exactly until we see how the RIs impact our beaker output)?
 
Ideas:
I really think going 80%-90% research this turn and building more buildings and/or saving more wealth makes sense here. Look at how many research buildings we are going to build...

city build suggestions

Pigs can grow this turn if work 1 ocean tile

Kamchatka would get ~47 science from RSI (so pays back in 5 turns)
I would build worker (1) RSI, then worker (OF from 1st worker shaves off a turn on RSI build)

Chengdu could finish an observatory this turn with 1 citizen

Beijing building a harbor this turn or next shaves a turn off the RSI build

Hammer city can interrupt Eiffel tower build for library (1) gives enough OF to finish Eiffel (1) and easily enough for RSI (1)

Haiti after wealth could build a Harbor(1) then RSI (2) (same number of turns just 1 more building)

York should build a RSI after Observatory instead of a University

London could build a harbor and shave a turn off its RSI build

Canterbury you suggest "Wealth until RSI is a one turn build" but you don't build up OF with wealth so I'm not sure what you mean. Canterbury should accelerate growth by working cottage instead of specialist, then once it grows it can work 2 specialists instead of cottage

Delhi doesn't need the barracks since we will get happiness from Eiffel and R&R and then it won't grow since it is building workers

In response to bbp's suggestions
I think Marines to take out Stalin before launch would be great, so we can hit America from both sides.

Also
I would like to know if you plan to disband 3 or 4 muskets (saves 100+ gold during this critical time)

will you trade for the gold by trading resources to Gandhi/Roosy/Stalin (yes it is only 3 gold/turn but it is basically free)

I agree forge builds are probably not worth it at this point.
 
Also, I can play through rocketry + 2 turns whenever you guys are ok with the PPP. I can play later tonight though, so feel free to post more comments.

I think this is a good plan. Let's try to have all PPP comments completed in the next three hours so that shyuhe can respond to / incorporate them and play later tonight. In general, I think the PPP looks fine.

Thanks for putting all of this time in our game, shyuhe! :goodjob:

BTW, at Rocketry +2, we should have most RIs done so we will be able to fairly accurately plan the last few techs and all space part builds. We'll also know how many cities can can afford to build units for our upcoming wars.
 
I think we can build the casings in 3 turns. We can save our biggest hammer cities for just the casing builds and have other cities build the thrusters.

That means ideally 5 more RSI but they pay off so I think we can do it.

there are 3 forests near siberia (2 fur and 1 deer have forests)
 
Also, I can play through rocketry + 2 turns whenever you guys are ok with the PPP. I can play later tonight though, so feel free to post more comments.

If I'm playing next I would want to have the game when there are 2 turns left until Apollo is finished as Mitchum suggested Which I think means Rocketry +1 (since Siberia should be able to finish Apollos in 3 turns)

edit: or at least that is what I thought Mitchum suggested.

Rocketry +1 stopping point is my vote regardless.
 
@bcool - I'm definitely on board with lowering the slider to save gold. We'll need the gold as we switch cities off to RSI builds. I didn't know you don't accumulate hammers on wealth :blush: Learn something new every day! I'll incorporate your changes to the PPP.

I'll disband a few muskets near India to save some gold. We will need a few troops to finish off anything attacked with cannons though.
 
Ok I see how close getting Artillery (1) and Rocketry (1) is. That is going to require some overflow research to accomplish that even factoring in the happiness and boost to research that will give us.

I'm not sure how much we can afford to build in these turns we have.

However if we delay Rocketry to (2) we could go build crazy. and make up for the delay later on with the extra research from the RI we would build.
 
I would disband about 4 muskets near Pataliputra (those muskets wouldn't even help in the war against Gandhi. ) Only the units on boats that could be dropped off right next to an indian city (or attack from the water) on the turn we DoW would really be needed.
 
research situation

we need about 5144 to finish Superconductors
at 100% we can produce about 5566
OF of 422 into Artillery

buildings built this turn can contribute about 104 more
pop growth this turn can contribute ~33 more

Artillery costs 6240 raw or 5200 after prereq discount (so if we produced 5566 +137 next turn and have 422 OF) that gives us 6125-5200 = 925 OF into Rocketry

Rocketry coes 7800 raw or 6500 after prereq discount

If we have the same production next turn (5566+137 + 925 OF + 29 new happy scientists ~261 (29*6*1.5) = 6889

6889 > 6500 but only by 389

So we can get Rocketry in 1 turn but we have to keep the slider close to or at 100% science :(
 
If push back Rocketry 1 turn and build a few more Research Institutes...

We delay Apollo by 1 turn which means we would have 8 turns to build all of the spaceship parts by T251.
 
Anyone want to help me plan out the spaceship builds?

I want 5 things from each city
1) max base hammers from each city right now if you moved population around with starvation as long as you don't lose a population in less than 8 turns but without converting specialists to citizens, engineers are ok.
2) max base hammers right now with citizen specialists
3) And Max base hammers if we converted everything that makes sense to workshops and moved population around to do it but no citizens without loss of pop as above.
4) and max base hammers if we converted to workshops and if we converted specialists to citizens
5) The number of total workers turns to convert cities into max hammer cities

I would want this for the top 20 cities I think, so
Hammer, Siberia, Moscow, Rheims, Canterbury, Bermuda, Bahamas, Hastings, Bcool Island, London, Guangzhou, Orleans, Haiti, Chengdu, Oxford, York, Kamchatka, Paris, Beijing.

I'll do Hammer, Siberia, Moscow as examples shortly.

Siberia
1) 114 now
2) 114 now (no pop available for citizens)
3) 136 (assume +3 :) as engineers and 4 more workshops keeping forests)
4) 136 (no pop available for citizens)
5) 18 worker turns

Moscow
1) 115
2) 118 with citizens
3) 126
4) 129 with citizens
5) 23 worker turns

Hammer
1) 118
2) 118 (no pop for citizens)
3) 131
4) 131 (no pop for citizens)
5) 12 worker turns
 
I would prefer to finish superconductors--artillery--rocketry in 1 turn each. We can build research institutes in the turn after that. It's sub-optimal but I fully expect satellites to be a 2 turn build.

I can do the information for the ex-English and ex-Chinese cities (that's about half I think).
 
Are we still planning Fission after Rocketry?

I can't help with the city hammer info until tomorrow. My honey-do list is too long right now. Sorry.
 
I would prefer to finish superconductors--artillery--rocketry in 1 turn each. We can build research institutes in the turn after that. It's sub-optimal but I fully expect satellites to be a 2 turn build.

But if we did rocketry in 2 turns, satellites would be 1 turn.

I'm not suggesting we go 0% science

I really think if we dropped the slider to 70-80% for 2-3 turns and built as many Research Institutes we could (while keeping slider no lower than 70%) it would be better. Yes we take 2 turns for Rocketry, but Satellites would be 1 turn with the research OF.

So we finish superconductors in 1 turn dropping slider to 80 or 90%, then finish artillery with 70-80% slider, then take 2 turns to finish Rocketry with lots of research OF at 70%-80% slider.

And then the assumption is the extra research from the research institutes allows us to keep the pace you calculated or better.
 
Canterbury
(1) 84 base
(2) 84 base with citizens (no gain because unworked tiles)
(3) 107 base with shops (4 shops and one mine and one railroad – can pick up another 11 if we flip two more tiles)
(4) 107 – unworked tiles
(5) 26 worker turns (36 including two flipped tiles)

Hastings
(1) 70 base
(2) 77 base with citizens (including 3 additional )
(3) 99 base with shops (6 shops, can also shop the corn for 5 more)
(4) 106 base with citizens + shops
(5) 30 works turns (35 if we shop the corn)

London – nix, notthingham way better already
Nottingham
(1) 72 base (will grow on to two more ice hills for 6 more, also a grass and tundra hill in BFC that should flip)
(2) All pop will go to tiles
(3) 83 base with 6 mines and one watermill
(4) –
(5) 60 worker turns (excluding cleaning up the fallout)

Guangzhou
(1) 67 base
(2) 72 base with citizens
(3) 82 base with shops (including shopping the cow, 3 shops + one railroad)
(4) 87 base with citizens + shops
(5) 17 worker turns

Chengdu
(1) 55 base
(2) 62 base with citizens
(3) 61 base with shops (one shop + one railroad)
(4) 67 base with citizens + shops
(5) 7 turns

Oxford
(1) 58 base
(2) 64 base with citizens
(3) 75 base with shops (including shopping the sugar, 2 shops 2 mines 2 railroads)
(4) 81 base with shops + citizens
(5) 22 worker turns
York
56 base-ish, also excludes use of Nottingham
Beijing – borrowing tiles from Shanghai
(1) 61 base
(2) 70 base with citizens
(3) 89 base with shops (4 shops + two mines + one railroad)
(4) 97 base with shops + citizens – can probably eek out 5 more hammers if we shop the corn
(5) 30 worker turns
 
I'm concerned that delaying rocketry by a turn may impact the builds of the other parts (i.e., thrusters and casings). Unless we can shave those down to 3 turns each, it'll be tough.

I can go pull the information for the remaining cities now. This isn't as time consuming as I thought.
 
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