SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[bcool]

I'm still around, I just didn't have much to contribute to the debates about the MM on horses/cows etc that hadn't already been said.

 

[Mitchum]

shyuhe and mysty said they'd be very busy IRL for a few weeks. I'm still expecting them to be back, 'cause they always are. Hopefully our ridiculous MM debates aren't turning them off completely. I'll PM them later today.

No idea about the rest - I guess Civ5 casualties as Mitchum said. I was hoping either Silu or ZPV would stick around for consult.

Are you guys willing to continue with just 3-4 players? I'm actually getting really sick of Civ/CFC lately and I'm not playing any more games, but this one is really interesting. So, I'm happy to continue, as long as we can keep some good discussion going.

Maybe we should speed it up a bit, too. I think I could just play through the library in a couple of days, and then we can have another TS right after.

I'm fine to keep playing as well. This game is different than any other I've ever seen, which makes it more interesting. Currently, we have 3 active players and hopefully Soirana continues in a consultant role. The others should join us when they are able, me thinks.

BBP, I think you're up. Even if/when the others come back, it will take them a bit to get up to speed.

 

[Mitchum]

shyuhe and mysty said they'd be very busy IRL for a few weeks. I'm still expecting them to be back, 'cause they always are. Hopefully our ridiculous MM debates aren't turning them off completely. I'll PM them later today.

No idea about the rest - I guess Civ5 casualties as Mitchum said. I was hoping either Silu or ZPV would stick around for consult.

Are you guys willing to continue with just 3-4 players? I'm actually getting really sick of Civ/CFC lately and I'm not playing any more games, but this one is really interesting. So, I'm happy to continue, as long as we can keep some good discussion going.

Maybe we should speed it up a bit, too. I think I could just play through the library in a couple of days, and then we can have another TS right after.

I'm fine to keep playing as well. This game is different than any other I've ever seen, which makes it more interesting. Currently, we have 3 active players and hopefully Soirana continures in a consultant role. The others should join us when they are able, me thinks.

BBP, I think you're up. Even if/when the others come back, it will take them a bit to get up to speed.

BTW, this busy server is really starting to get annoying.

 

[babybluepants]

Pre-Play Plan

Worker 1: Clear & pasture E cow > clear & pasture N cow > road NNE gold > clear & mine NNE gold > clear fish city

Worker 2: Clear & pasture N cow > road > clear & mine NNE gold > clear & mine N gold (or, road first? I think that's what LC's been doing, but I can't clear the second city in time for this to pay off)

Capital: warrior > warrior > library (sync with growth to 4)

Tech: Wheel > Fishing > Pottery (open for debate?)

Stopping point: T43 (growth to 4 and library completion)

Also:

1. Screen shot of the scoreboard.
2. Screen shot of the Demographics screen.
3. Screen shot of the top 5 cities.
4. Screenshot of the F4 screen to monitor when the AI meet each other.
5. Screenshot of the Espionage screen.
6. Use LCs Excel file to determine which tech an AI learned by watching changes in our GNP.

Pause the game if:

1. Meet an AI unit.
2. See an AI border in the fog.
3. DoP with Gandhi becomes an option.

Tech question: is it possible to check for DoP without actually offering? I'd offer AH and whatever else is available every turn, just in case.

I'll play in 36-48 hrs, so this is just a preliminary plan. Feel free to suggest any changes.

 

[babybluepants]

ROSTER

1. Mitchum Just played
2. shyuhe Skipped
3. ZPV Skipped
4. babybluepants UP
5. bcool ON DECK
6. LowtherCastle
7. mystyfly
8. mdy
9. Silu (lurking)
10. Soirana (in erasing mode)

 

[Mitchum]

Regarding the PPP, Do you end up working unimproved tiles rather than the horses? Does having worker 2 help with the cows E speed things up at all? The worker turns are the same but you can get the E cows improved at least 1 turn sooner.

Tech question: is it possible to check for DoP without actually offering? I'd offer AH and whatever else is available every turn, just in case.

Go to the trading window and click on "Let us bury the hatchet. What is the price for peace?" If DoP is possible, Gandhi will tell you what he wants (or is willing to give) for peace. The trade will not be made, even if it is possible, until you accept his offer.

 

[babybluepants]

Go to the trading window and click on "Let us bury the hatchet. What is the price for peace?" If DoP is possible, Gandhi will tell you what he wants (or is willing to give) for peace. The trade will not be made, even if it is possible, until you accept his offer.

In my experience, they ask for more than is required like this. Specifically, in testing for this game, I've had Gandhi ask for Wtg+AH, and the immediately accept just AH. Not sure how this works at all, since it's not equivalent to how tech/resource trade works.

Edit: I suppose it doesn't matter much here, since we'll take any DoP we can get. In other words, I could just offer techs available each turn, starting with the cheapest. I'm also fairly convinced that the DoP situation in our test save is close if not equal to the real game, so this almost certainly won't work. Can't hurt to try, though.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@BBP

Looks fine with me.

0. Actually, we should get to pop4 on T42 (max food till T40), with the library on T43.
1. As Mitchum said, wkr2 should help with Cows E first.
2. Definitely road goldN before scrubbing, if you get that far.
3. You don't need to bother with the screenshots on my account. I would appreciate it, though, if you moved your autosaves to a temp directory, just in case.
4. I would suggest stopping after TW-fishing, so we can discuss whether we want pottery or maybe a phood beeline, depending on what the AIs are doing.
5. Could you upload a save when we get to pop2. At that point, we should be able to learn lots about AI teching.

Play as soon as you want, as far as I'm concerned. We've analyzed this aplenty.

 

[Mitchum]

In other words, I could just offer techs available each turn, starting with the cheapest.

I don't think you need to offer techs each turn starting with the cheapest and working your way up. That will take too long to go through all of the permuations each turn. See if peace is even possible by selecting "Let us bury the hatchet..." first. If it is possible, then you can start with the cheapest tech and work you way up to find out the cheapest price, knowing that you'll eventually get there. If this is what you meant, then sorry for wasting pixels on this issue.

 

[Mitchum]

Play as soon as you want, as far as I'm concerned. We've analyzed this aplenty.

 

[babybluepants]

I'll play tmr AM in that case.

0. Actually, we should get to pop4 on T42 (max food till T40), with the library on T43.
1. As Mitchum said, wkr2 should help with Cows E first.
2. Definitely road goldN before scrubbing, if you get that far.

I'll need to run another test or two before playing. Could you post your T43 save? (Or point me to it, if you already have )

5. Could you upload a save when we get to pop2. At that point, we should be able to learn lots about AI teching.

Ok.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'll need to run another test or two before playing. Could you post your T43 save? (Or point me to it, if you already have )

Here is the T40 save. After wkr2 is done, you go max food up to this point, always picking the 3f or silks rather than the horses. At this point, you can see that you can work the horses and still grow to pop4 on T42.

As I recall, you won't play quite to T42, if you stop when we tech Fishing. I thnk that's an important point to check the AI development for about two or three...minutes. Just don't tell Soirana.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Let me know what to look for and/or which autosaves to upload (if uploading autosaves is an acceptable practice, that is).

It's okay to attach autosaves to your posts in this thread. BUt you can also just look at them, if you want,to find out this stuff:

@Mitchum
1. When did TW go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T13/T17?
2. When did Mysticism go from GNP19 to GNP20 (with 10 base )? T18/T19/T24/T25?

 

[Mitchum]

@ LC
I answered those questions here.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks, MItchum. I simply can't imagine what happened just before that post that made me miss yours...

 

[bcool]

I'm good with the PPP.

Would it be useful for me to play out to the end again using our current understanding of the AI's starting tech and locations?

So right now
Mao (Communism)
De Gaulle (Nationalism)
Roosevelt (Constitution)
Churchill (Electricity?)
Gandhi (Alphabet)
Stalin (Military Science + 2 ancient techs?) --I'm away from the game so I'll have to confirm how he got his score with different combinations of techs tomorrow.

If you guys think that would be useful, I can do that this weekend.

I'll also try to learn your analysis strategies for the AI techs.

Is there anything else that I could do that would be useful?

 

[mystyfly]

I'm still around but as bbp pointed out I have some RL issues, and as he pointed out as well, I'll be back

Moving from school to university isn't that easy after a 1-year break caused by the Swiss Army and I'm leaving my partent's house which means a lot more work as well. I'm always skimming the posts but I can't possibly read them thoroughly and post useful comments right now as I just don't have time (or, have other priorities). It's not what the posts are about but about the sheer amount of information to process when reading those many posts. I'll try to get back ASAP while wishing you all the luck in the meantime!

 

[LowtherCastle]

bcool, playing it out to the end is always helpful. I would try giving the AIs the right amount of tiles, as Mitchum figured out during his turnset. Give Stalin Fishing plus whatever else and isolate from all others by ocean tiles on a 6-tile island. Give Gandhi plains-stone and an fp or two in his bfc and no forest. If you want, you could even try these settings:

      health    unhealth
Gandhi    4     3
Mao       9     3 (expansionist +2:health:)
Roosy     7     2
De Gaulle 4     2
Churchill 5     2
Stalin    2     1

bbp will play tomorrow morning, your time, so that's info you could also add to the mix.

 

[babybluepants]

We can see Gandhi's graph now. If someone has time, we could do a pixel analysis of his MFG, GNP and Crop Yield. Should be able to determine exact tile yields.

 

[Mitchum]

We can see Gandhi's graph now. If someone has time, we could do a pixel analysis of his MFG, GNP and Crop Yield. Should be able to determine exact tile yields.

I noticed that we saw his graphs while playing starting on T16. I captured a screen shot of the graphs every turn. When I posted the screenshot .zip file, I only included the graphs where something changed, so it will be easy to tell exactly which turn the change occured. We wil have to estimate change on the y-axis, but that should be fairly easy since the changes are so small right now.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to dive into this. Plus, I'm not sure what value it will add. I guess we could figure out if/when he netted his fish, built a military unit, improved a tile, etc.