Not sure what you mean. Doubt Erkon gave us another marble. It's not that we won't settle north. We just need to plan settling locations well in advance due to fallout. LC's proposed site is gone after T68, hence the decision to take it now.
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
My 1000 BC run. Worker actions are different from LC's. Not sure we need to commit two workers to roading south now. I'd rather get Fish and third city productive in the short term.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
My worker actions are surely open to discussion, but I only have one worker roading to the south. The other is mining the plains hill. Rostov (2SW1S) will throw away the food from a 1f3h mine because of unhealthiness. We either get 0f4h or 0f3h(1g), your choice...
That's why I keep saying 1) plains hills are useful until we have enough health resources and
2) we need to focus on acquiring health resources
What I've noticed in the CS testing is that the worker roading to the south 1) is not needed elsewhere and 2) actually speeds up development of 2SW1S, because the worker scrubbing Rostov (2SW1S) gets to take the already-built road to the plains hill and immediately start scrubbing. 2) we need to focus on acquiring health resources
The worker roading south is already paying off.
------------
Notes:
1. The only reason I had workers scrubbing the grass hill at 1S of the ivory was for one less
in Fish. I wasn't planning to mine that hill for a while.2. We don't really need the ivory camps yet, as your save also shows. One worker there, more or less, is enough till CS, imo.
3. What we really need immediately after CS is hooking up rice, pigs, deer, and clams. Then our newly REXed cities can fluorish without major scrubbing.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Capturing Paris and our Galley City
Not sure how you guys are viewing Rostov, but because it will start with massive unhealthiness (4
/7), I see no point in trying to grow it to pop2. With the plains hill mine, it will build 3 galleys in 30 turns (5hpt*30t). By then, we should have rice, pigs, deer, and clams connected, and it can begin to function like a normal city.
The first galley can transport a chariot or two for worker stealing. Edit: And disconnect his metal, if needed. Any worker on the coast will not run and hide, of course.
Capture
High-culture cities like Paris are hard to capture by land, easy to capture by sea. The main reason is that by the time our land units walk to the Paris Gate, he's already built 2-3 more defenders and now we have to defeat 5-6 archers/axes/spearmen. Disaster. Note that Paris will generally have 2 base defenders for his capital plus one more for founding Buddhism (or building the Mahabodhi, can't remember which).
Luckily for us, we can station a scout at Paris 2SE without provoking him to build more defenders. The problem is, Paris will occasionally build archers to escort his settlers, or because there's nothing else to build. Hmmm...got to be clever. So this is how we could play this:
1. We bascially need 2 axes per archer in a 60%-culture, plains city. So we add 1 for safekeeping and we need 3*3=9 axes, assuming only three defenders.
2. We need to guarantee there are only three defenders when we attack. We do this by
a. Our scout at Paris-2SE watches when there are only 3 defenders (his settler and escort team leave the city, etc.).
b. Meanwhile, we monitor the Paris espionage screen to see what he's building. As soon as he's he's building something bigger than an archer, our 3 galleys drop 6 axes next to Paris and pick up the other 3 axes.
c. It's too late for Paris to build an archer that turn, but he might start one. (He could poprush one, but I doubt it.) The following turn we have 6 axes to attack by land and 3 backups to attack from sea if needed to mop up.
d. There is also a possibility that a wandering archer would slip back into Paris, so a second scout on the other side of Paris would be a safeguard against that.
Requirements
2 scouts
3 galleys
9 axes
Cheap!
Not sure how you guys are viewing Rostov, but because it will start with massive unhealthiness (4
/7), I see no point in trying to grow it to pop2. With the plains hill mine, it will build 3 galleys in 30 turns (5hpt*30t). By then, we should have rice, pigs, deer, and clams connected, and it can begin to function like a normal city.The first galley can transport a chariot or two for worker stealing. Edit: And disconnect his metal, if needed. Any worker on the coast will not run and hide, of course.
Capture
High-culture cities like Paris are hard to capture by land, easy to capture by sea. The main reason is that by the time our land units walk to the Paris Gate, he's already built 2-3 more defenders and now we have to defeat 5-6 archers/axes/spearmen. Disaster. Note that Paris will generally have 2 base defenders for his capital plus one more for founding Buddhism (or building the Mahabodhi, can't remember which).
Luckily for us, we can station a scout at Paris 2SE without provoking him to build more defenders. The problem is, Paris will occasionally build archers to escort his settlers, or because there's nothing else to build. Hmmm...got to be clever. So this is how we could play this:
1. We bascially need 2 axes per archer in a 60%-culture, plains city. So we add 1 for safekeeping and we need 3*3=9 axes, assuming only three defenders.
2. We need to guarantee there are only three defenders when we attack. We do this by
a. Our scout at Paris-2SE watches when there are only 3 defenders (his settler and escort team leave the city, etc.).
b. Meanwhile, we monitor the Paris espionage screen to see what he's building. As soon as he's he's building something bigger than an archer, our 3 galleys drop 6 axes next to Paris and pick up the other 3 axes.
c. It's too late for Paris to build an archer that turn, but he might start one. (He could poprush one, but I doubt it.) The following turn we have 6 axes to attack by land and 3 backups to attack from sea if needed to mop up.
d. There is also a possibility that a wandering archer would slip back into Paris, so a second scout on the other side of Paris would be a safeguard against that.
Requirements
2 scouts
3 galleys
9 axes
Cheap!
I've been thinking about this... There are some issues.
1) We won't have metal for quite some time.
2) Fish is likely to stagnate for a while due to academy GS.
3) Settlers and workers are almost as cheap as axes/chariots.
4) Our research is super-fast, but growth/expansion/production very, very low.
Your espionage skills are impressive, but 9 axes after 1000 BC on Emp doesn't sound that good to me. A fourth archer would halt the attack, and it's quite probable. esp. if we can't even get a DoP before then. It would be a close call at best, and we need to commit a lot of resources to this production.
We could, for instance, probably tech Construction before we ever build an axe.
Building galleys right off the bat in third city is fine, though. They will be useful and there's not much else we can expect from that city anyway.
Anyway, let's get this discussion going in earnest. We seem to have a plan for the next 18t, so we should continue on now.
1) We won't have metal for quite some time.
2) Fish is likely to stagnate for a while due to academy GS.
3) Settlers and workers are almost as cheap as axes/chariots.
4) Our research is super-fast, but growth/expansion/production very, very low.
Your espionage skills are impressive, but 9 axes after 1000 BC on Emp doesn't sound that good to me. A fourth archer would halt the attack, and it's quite probable. esp. if we can't even get a DoP before then. It would be a close call at best, and we need to commit a lot of resources to this production.
We could, for instance, probably tech Construction before we ever build an axe.
Building galleys right off the bat in third city is fine, though. They will be useful and there's not much else we can expect from that city anyway.
Anyway, let's get this discussion going in earnest. We seem to have a plan for the next 18t, so we should continue on now.
Couldn't we use our galleys as dual purpose scouts in order to keep the number of needed units to a minimum?
As fish city will be used to get our GS the only improvements it absolutely needs in the future are the fish and the cows, and ideally an ivory for the third city to work until the plains mine can be built. If we have spare worker turns they could be used to prepare the capitals rice for farming.
As fish city will be used to get our GS the only improvements it absolutely needs in the future are the fish and the cows, and ideally an ivory for the third city to work until the plains mine can be built. If we have spare worker turns they could be used to prepare the capitals rice for farming.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Sounds like a good idea. I haven't tested how that affects dG's builds, so I guess we should test moving the galley within 2 tiles and back out on the same turn. The scout is definitely safe.
In my plan, I put the spare worker turns into Fish having only -1
. I sped it up with two workers scrubbing the already-roaded grass hill. But I'm less and less married to the idea of scrubbing Fish for health. If you can work out a way to get rice prepared sooner, that might be the winner. 
We will want both ivories camped soon thereafter though, I think, because Fish grows pretty quickly, but you don't need to worry about that for your turnset, imo.But I wouldn't sacrifice roading to the south. I didn't realize it was going to save 2t to the plains hill till after I had tested it...
Later it will settle that city as much as 6t sooner! 
Edit: The roading to the south also makes moving back to the the Moscow rice from Fish/2SW1S must faster.
------------------
@bbp: Good points. We'll see what happens. I'm expecting copper to be in Moscow city center. If it's not, Xteam is dead meat and I'm pretty sure Erkon would NOT do that to them. I agree, though, we'l discuss the Paris-capture details later, when we know the situation. I brought it up here, because I saw you scrubbing the Rostov rice and I wanted to explain my view on Rostov staying at pop1 for a while.
You planned spots in north has 4-5 unnown tiles. How you can say they are better/worse than options southwards?
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Hey Silu!!! What do you think about this question:Yo folks, all I have to say, is
You guys rock.
Carry on.
For example, I'm thinking about the idea of gifting an AI a nearby city, then DoWing, recapturing, DoP+city, DoW, recapture, ad infinitum, till DoP is worth the price of their advanced tech.
bcool
Deity
De Gaulle could both draft and pop rush defenders in Paris. Not sure if that changes his behavior or our calculations/plans for or for not capturing it.
Thinking about it, it would probably be more efficient to hook up the rice in our third city as it is more efficient in terms of worker turns, and we won't be working the rice in the capital for a while if we are using it as a worker pump. We could do this by:
T57
Slider to 0%
worker roads 1NW of capital
worker pastures cows
worker sent to road 3S of fish city
T59
Fish city build workboat, starts library
worker sent to road 2W of capital
slider to 50%
T60
slider to 100%
Capital size 5, works 2 cows 2 gold and scientist. Fish city works fish
T61
worker roads rice
fire scientist in capital, start settler
T62
fish worker sent to scrub southern ivory
worker nearest capital sent to scrub third city site
T64
Send second worker to scrub third city site
T65
Fish to size 2 work cows
Discover Maths
T66
Build settler in capital, start worker
T67
send one worker to scrub plain hill
T68
send second worker to scrub plains hill
found third city work coast, start warrior
T69
Fish to size 3, work lake
T71
Capital build worker, continues Oracle. Send worker to scrub rice
T72
1 worker roads plain hill (1 turn)
T73
road ivory
2 workers mine plains hill
T74
Fish to size 4. Work fish, lake, 2 coast
T75
Discover COL, Oracle CS
worker finishes mine on plains mine
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
mdy, when do you rehire scientist(s) in Moscow? Never mind, I figured it out.
bcool
Deity
If we get the CS-slingshot we can quickly irrigate the rice near the capital. That will take ~27 worker turns total, so that is something we have to plan for as well.
I can't. This is part of the reason why LC is proposing the filler spot next and we're agreeing. We'll obviously scout it and rethink the north dotmap as needed. Are you objecting to the settling schedule (i.e. before the CS date) or to settling towards south in general? What would you do at this point?
Wouldn't this result in -1s ad infinitum with other AIs?
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
@mdy
Western rice earlier is a good idea. I tried out your plan. Then I tried two variants of it, first roading each time a worker moves to a new tile and second trying the earlier library in Fish. See the save below.
To get enough beakers, I had to rehire the Moscow scientist 1t before the settler completes.
To finish the library fast enough, I switched from the fish to the cows when there was 10f stored up (T62) and I worked the ivory camp at pop3. Then when the library was done, I hired a scientist instead of working the lake. On T74, it's necessary to work 2 scientists instead of the cows.
The worker moves were basically what I had in my plan. The worker on the ivory roads, then roads 1S, then scrubs 2SW1S. The cow worker pastures, then scrubs/camps ivory. The forest worker roads to the south, but at one point has to help camp the ivory for Fish pop3, while the 2SW1S scrubber takes over roading to the south.
This gives us our Fish GS a couple turns sooner and the next workboat (or whatever) done in Fish sooner.
------------------
In the save, I sent the 4th worker to the Moscow rice. If I had sent it to the other rice, the mine would be done and the rice almost scrubbed, as in your save. My thinking on Rostov and the rice in general is that the Rostov mine doesn't really need to be done until we have Sailing, although the sooner the better, obviously. On connecting the rice, I doubt we want to research Agriculture ourselves. Wouldn't it be better to get it from Gandhi for free?
Western rice earlier is a good idea. I tried out your plan. Then I tried two variants of it, first roading each time a worker moves to a new tile and second trying the earlier library in Fish. See the save below.
To get enough beakers, I had to rehire the Moscow scientist 1t before the settler completes.
To finish the library fast enough, I switched from the fish to the cows when there was 10f stored up (T62) and I worked the ivory camp at pop3. Then when the library was done, I hired a scientist instead of working the lake. On T74, it's necessary to work 2 scientists instead of the cows.
The worker moves were basically what I had in my plan. The worker on the ivory roads, then roads 1S, then scrubs 2SW1S. The cow worker pastures, then scrubs/camps ivory. The forest worker roads to the south, but at one point has to help camp the ivory for Fish pop3, while the 2SW1S scrubber takes over roading to the south.
This gives us our Fish GS a couple turns sooner and the next workboat (or whatever) done in Fish sooner.
------------------
In the save, I sent the 4th worker to the Moscow rice. If I had sent it to the other rice, the mine would be done and the rice almost scrubbed, as in your save. My thinking on Rostov and the rice in general is that the Rostov mine doesn't really need to be done until we have Sailing, although the sooner the better, obviously. On connecting the rice, I doubt we want to research Agriculture ourselves. Wouldn't it be better to get it from Gandhi for free?
I was able to get CS at 1000B.C. by rehiring the scientist immediately after the settler was built. This gave us the absolute minimum number of beakers we needed to get COL in time. If you are not getting it without hiring a scientist earlier I suspect it might be because the third city automatically starts working the plains mine when it is built and you need to switch it back manually.
I was assuming that after CS our capital would be building workers/settlers for rex, and then concentrating on barracks/axes for De Gaulle. In which case it won't be able to grow for a long time so we can delay hooking up that rice tile for a while.
We get a GS at the same time, T94 with either MM scheme as the earlier library is cancelled out by the slower growth.
I agree that we would ideally like to trade for agriculture/sailing with Gandhi.
We can afford to delay the plains mine until sailing. My reasoning in building it immediately is that it would allow the 2 workers to head south to the pigs site. The other 2 workers could then head to improve a site to the north and we would not have to waste worker turns moving one of them back. The extra hammers in Rostov would also be useful to build a few cheap military police for our cities while we still can.
If we built a coastal city up the silver it could build the workboat for the clams, leaving fish city to build a barracks so it could help with building axes to take out De Gaulle.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
This is getting interesting, I can feel the synergy growing with all our various exchanges and points of view. I further tested capturing Paris yesterday and bbp is probably right--it's going to be hairy, unles we can figure out some tricks. He's likely to build a ton of units, probably because he runs out of other things to build and maybe because we're still at war. Your warrior in Rostov solves the problem of having a unit nearby to threaten Paris for a cheap DoP. Then I think we want to gift him Sailing and Masonry, if possible, and even CoL maybe to give him lots of stuff to build. He built the GLH really fast in one test game. Then by the time we build our first galley, the DoP should be wearing off and we can think about worker stealing, which in my testing gains us a TON of workers, and maybe also pillaging his hammer tiles. Anyway, that's all later on.
I see your point on no need for rice yet in Moscow and I think that's more a powerful solution.
I also agree with the 2 workers going south. Yesterday I realized we could build a road every 2t without wasting worker moves by having the trailing worker build the mine 1t, for example, then leapfrogging exactly when the next road is done. Later, it's not build the mine 1t, but scrub the sugar 1t or whatever. Never moving two workers onto unroaded fallout, but still 1 road per 2t. Then the workers can each scrub pigs or city site down south and we'll settle that city incredibly soon. Awesome! It's a lot of MM, though, because we have to remember to cancel the worker action each turn, so it can leapfrog.
Since FIsh CIty will be making the GS, I think we might just skip the barracks there and build them only in Moscow. THere's a good reason why only half our axes need to have the promotion. I'll explain that in the next post. But that doesn't mean we have to build the wb here, could be a chariot or whatever. I said 3 axes per archer, but it could also be 2 axes + 1 chariot, I think.
------------
In my save, I have to start the scientist a turn earlier because I'm initially behind in beakers working the cows three turns instead of the fish, then later working the ivory 3t instead of the lake. But I gain the beakers all the beakers back, but one, with the library bonus and working the scientist in Fish. My way gains a bunch of hammers in exchange for food, but at pop4 you're losing an extra fpt.
Btw, I'm pretty sure my save does get the GS 2t sooner, because at T75, you're 2t from the library completion, I'm 2t from pop4. We both start working 2sci at the same time, but I've already got 12gppts in it.
Any thoughts on when you're planning to play? (Can't wait...)
I see your point on no need for rice yet in Moscow and I think that's more a powerful solution.
I also agree with the 2 workers going south. Yesterday I realized we could build a road every 2t without wasting worker moves by having the trailing worker build the mine 1t, for example, then leapfrogging exactly when the next road is done. Later, it's not build the mine 1t, but scrub the sugar 1t or whatever. Never moving two workers onto unroaded fallout, but still 1 road per 2t. Then the workers can each scrub pigs or city site down south and we'll settle that city incredibly soon. Awesome! It's a lot of MM, though, because we have to remember to cancel the worker action each turn, so it can leapfrog.
Since FIsh CIty will be making the GS, I think we might just skip the barracks there and build them only in Moscow. THere's a good reason why only half our axes need to have the promotion. I'll explain that in the next post. But that doesn't mean we have to build the wb here, could be a chariot or whatever. I said 3 axes per archer, but it could also be 2 axes + 1 chariot, I think.
------------
In my save, I have to start the scientist a turn earlier because I'm initially behind in beakers working the cows three turns instead of the fish, then later working the ivory 3t instead of the lake. But I gain the beakers all the beakers back, but one, with the library bonus and working the scientist in Fish. My way gains a bunch of hammers in exchange for food, but at pop4 you're losing an extra fpt.
Btw, I'm pretty sure my save does get the GS 2t sooner, because at T75, you're 2t from the library completion, I'm 2t from pop4. We both start working 2sci at the same time, but I've already got 12gppts in it.
Any thoughts on when you're planning to play? (Can't wait...
)Similar threads
