SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

In the test game, I think Gandhi has a galley route to us, and must have a trade network to Galley City via OB. It's a bit annoying, since we're throwing off testing a bit by benefitting from the better TR's.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I found the code for espionage steal tech missions.

Mitchum, of course you are right (since your test proves it ):

• -15% if our religion is in Galley City and Gandhi is running a different religion
• -25% if we have the Holy City for our religion
• -20% for trade routes (actually, I didn't find the code for 20%, but I found the code that shows there is some percentage for trade routes, and it's obviously 20%)
• a culture factor that I don't understand how to calculate
• plus the other stuff

So we should get at least 25% more off the price I calculated, plus any culture factor. I think we'll know if we're getting the trade route factor by whether we can trade resources with Gandhi. With only the Holy CIty 25% I get this to be 391, so that'd borderline.

We should definitely consider this.

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On the other hand, I have Philosophy at 625epps without TRs and culture. Gandhi will almost surely bulb that sooner or later. Maybe we should put a bit more energy into this tech stealing business.
.

 

[Mitchum]

In the test game, I think Gandhi has a galley route to us, and must have a trade network to Galley City via OB. It's a bit annoying, since we're throwing off testing a bit by benefitting from the better TR's.

Trade routes removed. We do have a TR with Galley City, which is not the case in the real game.

I also named workers 1 and 3.

 

[Mitchum]

We should definitely consider this.

Agreed. Theology for "free" is just too good to pass up. We must remember that once we perform the mission, we'll go dark with respect to Gandhi (demo graph data, tech researching, etc.). Maybe not a big deal, but something to consider.

So, in order to get the full 40% bonus, we'll have to revolt to Confucianism some time soon. We should also consider revolting to OR once we have Monotheism. This is a full 2 turns lost in anarchy. But the +25% bonus hammers in Moscow should pay for themselves fairly quickly, no?

Speaking of which, what are our plans to get Monotheism? Trade Calendar to Gandhi now for Poly + Masonry + 10 gold and then hold off on Currency until he has something else on the table? Will these tech trades possibly make us De Gaulle's worst enemy by "Trading with his worst enemy"?

 

[Mitchum]

On the other hand, I have Philosophy at 625epps without TRs and culture. Gandhi will almost surely bulb that sooner or later. Maybe we should put a bit more energy into this tech stealing business.
.

Agreed. I prefer not to use the espionage slider too much unless it's only 100% for a turn or two, but a CH or three in the near term should help things a bit.

I ran another test with the new save and the Trade Route bonus disappeared once the State Religion bonus applied. I think it's an either/or situation (at least based on my testing).

The culture factor could be pretty big, especially once we found GP Farm and start putting yet more culture on Gally City.

Let's try to work a Spy into the next turnset. This should help us figure out the tech stealing costs in our game and provide some intel for our upcoming war effort on De Gaulle.

 

[bcool]

I would imagine LC was suggesting getting Philosophy in a tech steal rather than Theology.

Philosophy is a tech we definitely need, Theology is nice but only if we plan to build the Hagia Sophia which is nice in this game but not? critical. (We can steal workers and/or make workers for similar benefits and costs, what we can't do is easily get GE points)

 

[babybluepants]

Will these tech trades possibly make us De Gaulle's worst enemy by "Trading with his worst enemy"?

Do we care? He's already in WHEOOHRN and we're planning to kill him soon after.

So, we have no intention of getting Philosophy ourselves?

 

[Mitchum]

I would imagine LC was suggesting getting Philosophy in a tech steal rather than Theology.

Yes, he added that after I had already read and quoted his post...

Philosophy is a tech we definitely need, Theology is nice but only if we plan to build the Hagia Sophia which is nice in this game but not? critical. (We can steal workers and/or make workers for similar benefits and costs, what we can't do is easily get GE points)

In the last SGOTM, we built the Hagia Sophia just for the GE points. In this game, we really could use the added worker efficiencies. If we're serious about founding Mining Inc., we really need to be planning our GE points now if we want a decent chance (i.e. >75%) of getting a GE.

 

[bcool]

I think getting Philosophy and spreading our religion is an alternative to building the Parthenon. (Maybe in addition to it, but I think getting Philosophy and spreading a religion might ease the pressure to produce so much in Moscow.) Also avoids the Great Prophet popping in Moscow more easily. (Although the Great Prophet and a holy city might spread help spread our religion... Not the worst thing that could happen to us.)

 

[Mitchum]

So, we have no intention of getting Philosophy ourselves?

The value of founding Taoism is pretty low, in my opinion. We'll own the holy city and likey the shrine soon enough, right? If we can steal it by focusing our epp strategy a bit more, why not do it?

 

[babybluepants]

I couldn't care less about Tao, but the value of delaying Gandhi's Liberalism by 20t could be in the 2-3k beaker range + added benefits... If he happens to pop a GS sometime soon, there's not much we can do about it, I agree. But, if not, I'd use the next GS on it.

We need to start working out a detailed gpp plan, btw, now that we know TGL+NE are going into Pigs. Maybe I'll work on that later today...

In any case, stealing Philo def. sounds much more appealing than Theo.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hagia Sophia wkr-turns

now  w/HS
---  ----
2t    2t    grass road
3t    2t    grass chop, tundra road 
4t    3t    grass camp, mine, cottage, tundra chop
5t    4t    grass farm, grass plantation, tundra camp
[COLOR="Red"]6t    4t    grass scrub, grass wkshp[/COLOR]
7t    5t    tundra farm
[COLOR="red"]8t    5t    tundra scrub, tundra wkshp[/COLOR]
10t   7t    tundra watermill

Not bad considering how much we save on scrubbing and workshops.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We need to start working out a detailed gpp plan, btw, now that we know TGL+NE are going into Pigs. Maybe I'll work on that later today...

In any case, stealing Philo def. sounds much more appealing than Theo.

Yes. I'd be interested to see if we can get some GSes pumped out before Moscow pops something. Plus, if we can build Hagia Sophia in Moscow sometime soon and still get our GSes.

I think we'll be able to steal both Theology and Philosophy. We might have to run some espionage specialists in a couple of non-GP cities for some turns. But we'll need to poprush some chs in any case.

I'm not concerned about Gandhi getting Philo because we need Liberalism for Communism, so we can't delay it for an expensive tech anyway.

 

[babybluepants]

We'd definitely want stone first before HS, right? That won't happen for some time. I think we should delay the steal decision, and hopefully put the same spy to use in France for a while.

In the test game, Gandhi got Paper by 100 AD, which is Deity timeline. We've given him huge tech boosts with out lopsided trading, and we'll continue to do so. I'm a bit concerned about being able to even get SM or Comm. Like stated, though, not much we can do about it if he bulbs before we can...

 

[LowtherCastle]

HS gets the 100% prod bonus with marble, not stone.

 

[babybluepants]

Shows you how often I've built it...

Spoiler :

never once

 

[bcool]

Our workers spend 80% of their time working and 20% moving approximately

HS increases efficiency of all our potential builds by roughly 40% (due to rounding issues that LC chart shows)

So HS effectively increases the number of our workers by (80% time working * 40% increase in efficiency 0.40) or 32%

We might have an average of 20 workers between now and steam power (when HS obsoletes)
That means HS would equal about 20*.32 = 6.4 or 6 workers (360 hammers/food)

Right now we would likely have 10 or so workers so the immediate benefit would be only 3 workers.

HS costs us 275 hammers after the marble discount. (But during the time we are building the HS we wouldn't get the benefit of the workers as they are produced if we produced workers instead)

In the short run it would mean we have fewer workers, and as time goes on the benefit increases with the more workers we get.

The value of the +2 GE points might be far more valuable.

Just food for thought...

 

[bcool]

Ok, playing soon in an hour or so.

Responding to recent questions and developments...

I won't trade for Poly/Masonry yet, I'll wait for Iron Working from Gandhi hopefully and trade Currency for the lot of them.. (maybe I will if he gets more gold accumulated)

I'll skip the barracks and build a 2nd axe and spy in Moscow instead

Still teching MC first...

Looking back I missed a few things

Edit: Peace with Stalin? What do you mean by decent gold trade?

I mean if Stalin has 60+ gold and doesn't know polytheism or some small tech like that I think peace and a trade for that gold would be worth it.
Especially if Stalin gets 200+ gold somehow, peace for a trade for that gold would give us a needed push in this early going.

 

[LowtherCastle]

SOunds like a good idea. Good luck, bcool!

 

[bcool]

also splitting espionage between Gandhi and Mao for a few turns? Or leave it on Gandhi for Philosophy steal?