Mitchum
Deity
The biggest issue with Agriculture first is that non-wet rice is much weaker than cows. With this tech path, did you know AH in time to improve the cows first? If so, this sounds like yet another tech option for SIP.
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
The biggest issue with Agriculture first is that non-wet rice is much weaker than cows. With this tech path, did you know AH in time to improve the cows first? If so, this sounds like yet another tech option for SIP.
bcool
Deity
So I'm not sure if anyone as tried to get GLH with NNE site as fast as possible. I was only able to get the GLH 850 BC and the Oracle in 700 BC.
850 BC isn't that impressive, and if we settle NNE and fail to the GLH then that would be really bad...
I'm convinced SIP is the best. If the area near the fish is nice for our 2nd city I think we might get the best of both worlds with SIP. Early Oracle and a chance at the GLH.
850 BC isn't that impressive, and if we settle NNE and fail to the GLH then that would be really bad...
I'm convinced SIP is the best. If the area near the fish is nice for our 2nd city I think we might get the best of both worlds with SIP. Early Oracle and a chance at the GLH.
I started out testing with Agri first - it doesn't slow down the first cow. Honestly, I prefer giving up the 20% discount. There's no time to improve the rice until much later, as lots of other improvements take precedence. And we can just tech Agri in 2t when we do need it. Cutting out Agri also makes the Oracle sling more of a possibility. AH-Wheel-Wtg lets us build the library on a nice schedule.
Reasoning behind Wheel:
My worker actions right now are to improve the eastern cow first, then road the gold 1N - this finishes just as the second worker comes out, so it doesn't waste a turn getting to cow. Then roading the northern cow after pasture nets the extra health, improve the river gold first and use the two tiles of road to not lose a turn going back to other gold (as well as save a turn for the settler), then one worker goes to clear the fallout for the second city. I'm 1t late on that (settler sits). Not sure at all if this is optimal, but we can just play a short set and spend some time optimizing through test play still.
Reasoning behind Wheel:
My worker actions right now are to improve the eastern cow first, then road the gold 1N - this finishes just as the second worker comes out, so it doesn't waste a turn getting to cow. Then roading the northern cow after pasture nets the extra health, improve the river gold first and use the two tiles of road to not lose a turn going back to other gold (as well as save a turn for the settler), then one worker goes to clear the fallout for the second city. I'm 1t late on that (settler sits). Not sure at all if this is optimal, but we can just play a short set and spend some time optimizing through test play still.
Looks like my one attempt was in the 700's. Faster is probably possible, but the problem is we can't really sacrifice workers/settlers too much for it.
Mitchum
Deity
I need to test this further, but I think Agriculture -> AH -> Writing may be a stronger opening for a few reasons:
1. In general, I'm dubious of the value of researching the Wheel early unless it is needed to hook up a strategic resource (i.e. horses, copper, marble, etc). Spending two turns building a road to save one worker turn in movement later is not a good trade off, especially early in the game when every worker turn is vital. In addition, these two worker turns used to build a road segment could have been better used to get a pasture or a gold mine on line 2 turns sooner. Now, if we need the Wheel very early to hook up the cows and/or the rice to avoid unhealthiness, then researching the Wheel early on makes more sense. Keep in mind that we may not have to climb the gold hill to lay down a road for quite some time since one will be hooked up due to being on the river.
2. Don't under-estimate the value of the 20% bonus. Sure, we can research Agriculture in 2 turns later in the game. But we could also use those same 2 turns to research a different tech 2 turns sooner. If we think we'll have to self-research Agriculture eventually (i.e. we won't get it in trade), it is more efficient to research it before AH. 20% bonus at 10 base beakers for 10is turns = 20 "free" beakers = 3ish extra turns working a gold mine.
3. I thought that the CS sling was off the table due to the associated risk and since DoP and getting Alphabet from Gandhi were more important. Do we really want to put that back on the table and have it influence our decisions? I'm fine either way, but we can't continue keep all of our options open, right?
Now, if two workers can keep up with resource improvements and keep cleaning up the fallout fast enough to keep our health issues under control, then I don't see the need to research the Wheel so early.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Agri Analsyis
In my testing, with and without agri, TW comes soon enough to road the second gold mine and still scrub 2W of the fish in time for the settler. That means that comparing agri or not agri boils down to whether we keep 2.33t for our slingshot in reserve or save .67t in beakers:
Here is a comparison of TW before or after writing.
In my agri tests, one worker finishes the 2nd gold, then focuses on the rice. About 15t later, SIP doubles its growth from 2fpt to 4fpt (and hires a sci+4fpt at pop5, 2sci+2fpt at pop6). But as bbp says, we can always research agri after TW. We only lose 22b in return for the flexibility of a slinshot and also perhaps getting math sooner to trade with Gandhi.
In my testing, with and without agri, TW comes soon enough to road the second gold mine and still scrub 2W of the fish in time for the settler. That means that comparing agri or not agri boils down to whether we keep 2.33t for our slingshot in reserve or save .67t in beakers:
Code:
Comparing tech paths
agri-ah ah-tw
------- -----
+22b +71b into slingshot
Code:
tw b4 tw after wtg
----- ------------
+17g
+1t 2nd +3 wkr-t
city
+~4f (can't remember exactly)LowtherCastle
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Mitchum, to me, our Wonder testing enables us to monitor AI development and decide later what's on and off the table. CS-slingshot is still the best, if we can get it. For example, if we know G is the only one with Phood and we can see into his cities, we can monitor his builds, see if he's building a wonder, how far along, how fast he's going. So a math beeline (with or without agri) is probably our best tech path, because we can oracle currency or CS and we can possibly chop GLH. Problem is, CS sling isn't likely, so it's riskier. Continued growth of SIP is not risky, only good. We'll see what happens.
We do need the cow road to keep up with health, that's why I'm doing it. Also, the second pasture finishes the turn we grow to 2 anyway, and it's 4t roading for 3 movement turns saved by the second gold mine - basically a wash. I usually take the 20% discount whenever possible. This time, though, I like shaving turns off early research, so we have more options on gambits later. We don't need Agri for any Oracle tech.
@LC,
If we do tech Agri, do we get Wtg in time?
Edit: Just checked, it's 5t late imho.
@LC,
If we do tech Agri, do we get Wtg in time?
Edit: Just checked, it's 5t late imho.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Yes, writing is on time, no problem. When do you finish the library? Without the warrior, I get 2400bc, with one warrior, I get 2320BC. But just so you know, my analysis convinced me that I also prefer to skip agri for now. Still, I think it's better to do this worker sequence:
Check it out. I think you'll see that the 2nd pasture and both mines are done the same turn as the next growth and the City 2 site is scrubbed with no waiting. This is regardless of agri. I think your way has the mines done after growth and as you said, the settler sits a turn.
One more note: In your worker sequence, it's actually 1t better for your worker to road the cows instead of the gold. Then the 2nd worker moves to the gold and roads it. Try it! Same idea, but your workers only move twice instead of three times.
Spoiler :
One more note: In your worker sequence, it's actually 1t better for your worker to road the cows instead of the gold. Then the 2nd worker moves to the gold and roads it. Try it! Same idea, but your workers only move twice instead of three times.
Mitchum
Deity
I agree that keeping our options open for a CS sling is a good thing. Am also very happy to forget the Oracle all together and beeline Math -> Currency to get DoP and Alphabet from Gandhi, which would allow DoP with of, all of the other AI as well. Researching AH first gives us the most flexibility, so I'm fine with this approach.
In an effort get the game going, here is my first cut at a PPP. Having something conrete to discuss should be able to help us focus our discussion.
T0: SIP, set research to AH, set build to worker, set EPP weight = 1 on Gandhi
T12: Learn AH. Stop and upload screen shots.
Things to do on each turn:
EDIT: Crosspost with LC.
In an effort get the game going, here is my first cut at a PPP. Having something conrete to discuss should be able to help us focus our discussion.
T0: SIP, set research to AH, set build to worker, set EPP weight = 1 on Gandhi
T12: Learn AH. Stop and upload screen shots.
Things to do on each turn:
- Screen shot of the scoreboard.
- Screen shot of the Demographics screen.
- Screen shot of the top 5 cities.
- Screenshot of the F4 screen to monitor when the AI meet each other.
- Use LCs Excel file to determine which tech an AI learned by watching changes in our GNP.
EDIT: Crosspost with LC.
I also agree with skipping agriculture for now to maintain flexibility.
I don't think it matters if other teams can see our demographics, you can't learn too much from them, and any team that feels the need to copy the actions of another team is not likely to come close to the top anyway.
I don't think it matters if other teams can see our demographics, you can't learn too much from them, and any team that feels the need to copy the actions of another team is not likely to come close to the top anyway.
Graphs don't matter. Just upload the save, I'm super paranoid about these things.
@LC,
I'll try your worker sequences, sure. Didn't necessarily think mine was perfect...
The second warrior isn't necessarily needed asap. It's intent is MP, which we don't need for a while. Also, in my tests I don't get Wtg in time so I have to build it to within 1-2t of completion anyway. I'll try out different scenarios, now that I'm not also testing different settling locations or tech paths.
@LC,
I'll try your worker sequences, sure. Didn't necessarily think mine was perfect...
The second warrior isn't necessarily needed asap. It's intent is MP, which we don't need for a while. Also, in my tests I don't get Wtg in time so I have to build it to within 1-2t of completion anyway. I'll try out different scenarios, now that I'm not also testing different settling locations or tech paths.
BTW, I think you can just play whenever, Mitch. No need to discuss anything further.
Sidebar:
What should we name our cities? I've been calling them by proper Russian names (Moskva, Sankt Peterburg, Kyiv...) Or, how about: Stolica (Capital), Ryba (Fish)... Or, something else...
Sidebar:
What should we name our cities? I've been calling them by proper Russian names (Moskva, Sankt Peterburg, Kyiv...) Or, how about: Stolica (Capital), Ryba (Fish)... Or, something else...
Ok, so you can do this because your worker sequence doesn't require a road until later, and you go AH-Wtg-Wheel. Seems quite good to me. I'll see if I can find any further improvements.
Edit: hmm... I still can't get the Lib at 2400 BC, and you do suffer unhealth from 2440 BC (first mine completion) until the cow is roaded.
Edit2: Also, my sequence lets me grow to pop 4 pre-settler, so I can work both gold continuously... This will take a bit of work to perfect, but that's no problem now that we have more clearly defined short-term goals.
LowtherCastle
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@Mitchum: All systems go!
@bbp: Your building 2 warriors instead of one got me thinking that it might be a pretty good idea to have both southward and northward explorers. The MP comes just before the settler while growing to pop4. But none of that matters for now. It was all about where to settle. From now on we have to ignore our tests, in a sense, and be strictly one with the real game. It's going to be weird.
@All: Had an interesting test game today. Stalin got a religion, Gandhi met him, hated him, and as soon as our warrior found him and we DoPed, he wanted OBs and traded techs... :::
Speaking of which, one of the Duckweed scenarios for 130 points is Myst-Medit(+Buddhism)-AH-Phood. If they did that, they just eliminated the bestest of the bestest scenario wherein G trades them techs... 
(Unless G's really close, doesn't get his own religion, theirs spreads,...)
@bbp: Your building 2 warriors instead of one got me thinking that it might be a pretty good idea to have both southward and northward explorers. The MP comes just before the settler while growing to pop4. But none of that matters for now. It was all about where to settle. From now on we have to ignore our tests, in a sense, and be strictly one with the real game. It's going to be weird.
@All: Had an interesting test game today. Stalin got a religion, Gandhi met him, hated him, and as soon as our warrior found him and we DoPed, he wanted OBs and traded techs... :::
Speaking of which, one of the Duckweed scenarios for 130 points is Myst-Medit(+Buddhism)-AH-Phood. If they did that, they just eliminated the bestest of the bestest scenario wherein G trades them techs... (Unless G's really close, doesn't get his own religion, theirs spreads,...)LowtherCastle
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One more thing, MItchum, it would be nice if you set your autosaves kept to 50 or something or not overrun them playing tomorrow's BOTM until we know for sure we don't want to see a particular save (despite your screenshots).
bcool
Deity
Just in case it isn't obvious to everyone, we should be able to tell what Gandhi researched from the Tech Trading screen, so you might want to take a screen shot of that to add to the info gleaned from LC's excel sheet.
Mitchum
Deity
OK. I've captured all of your suggestions. I'll try to play in about 2 hours when the littlest is taking a nap.
Mitchum
Deity
OK. I played. I will upload the save shortly. Some highlights:
T3:
DeGaulle adopts Nationhood (Nationalism)
Roosevelt adopts Representation (Constitution)
Mao adopts State Property (Communism)
T6:
Gandhi grows to 2 pops and learns Fishing
T7:
Roosevelt grows to 2 pops
T8:
Stalin grows to 2 pops
Mao learns a tech...
Churchill grows to 2 pops
T9:
Stalin learns a tech...
DeGaulle grows to 2 pops
T10:
DeGaulle learns a tech...
Other items:
There are Horses N+NE of Moscow!!
There are Cows and Ivory to the NW and Rice to the W.
No one has met anyone else, which only would have happened if they were very close together.
I'm uploading the screen shots in raw format. I don't have time to analyze them today, but I wanted to give you guys a chance to do so.
T3:
DeGaulle adopts Nationhood (Nationalism)
Roosevelt adopts Representation (Constitution)
Mao adopts State Property (Communism)
T6:
Gandhi grows to 2 pops and learns Fishing
T7:
Roosevelt grows to 2 pops
T8:
Stalin grows to 2 pops
Mao learns a tech...
Churchill grows to 2 pops
T9:
Stalin learns a tech...
DeGaulle grows to 2 pops
T10:
DeGaulle learns a tech...
Other items:
There are Horses N+NE of Moscow!!
There are Cows and Ivory to the NW and Rice to the W.
No one has met anyone else, which only would have happened if they were very close together.
I'm uploading the screen shots in raw format. I don't have time to analyze them today, but I wanted to give you guys a chance to do so.
Spoiler :
Attachments
All right! We're off and running... 
I totally knew we'd get a horse, but it didn't even occur to me it'd be NNE.
Cow and ivory is perfect, though I would have liked a forest or two. Is the cow plain or grass?I most likely won't have time for any analysis or testing today, but I should get to it tmr.
Nationalism, Constitution and Communism makes sense... All their fave civics.
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