SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

No, it's not necessarily that bad, I agree. Gifting CS scares me a bit, though. It's a pretty significant concession on the Lib path. He could just pop a quick GS and bulb Philo, too, since we're giving him the pre-reqs.

 

[babybluepants]

Moscow would be a very strong city at size 9, the problem is growing that far would significantly delay our rex, so perhaps this should wait until we start our military buildup to take Paris?

How significantly will it even delay?? As far as I can tell, my save (with mindless worker management) is only ca. 5t behind LC's previous guestimate with respect to settling pig and silver, with equivalent workers. After that, Moscow is going at 45-50hpt on settlers.

Why do we need to REX so desperately anyway? In general, I would say that we REX when some combination of the following is met:
(1) Land is in danger of being taken by AI (example: default-settings Imm/Dei)
(2) There are city sites available which are quick to set up and contribute.
(3) We are playing a ridiculously fast tech game with minimal infra (example: last SGOTM or any super-fast culture game).
None of these apply. The only visible site that is in danger from an AI would be stone/corn, but that's in danger regardless as it won't be settled until at least settler #4 anyway. By then, early growth in Moscow will almost certainly pay off.

My last attempt. In the interest of moving the game along, I won't make this argument again, since we obviously disagree and the fourth worker's already been sent away from Moscow anyway.

 

[babybluepants]

@Mitchum,
Are you available to play the next TS or still on your trip?

 

[Mitchum]

No, it's not necessarily that bad, I agree. Gifting CS scares me a bit, though. It's a pretty significant concession on the Lib path. He could just pop a quick GS and bulb Philo, too, since we're giving him the pre-reqs.

In a space race, the name of the game is expansion (peacefully or not) and fast teching. Even if we do lose the Liberalism race, at least we know that the early tech pace will be fast...

 

[Mitchum]

@Mitchum,
Are you available to play the next TS or still on your trip?

I don't want to be skipped completely but I'd like to switch with the player after me.

 

[bcool]

Hopefully, CoL will improve relations enough and Civil Service will get us alpha and the minor techs. That was what I did in one of my test games.

Is there any chance he would gift the city to De Gaulle?

 

[LowtherCastle]

bbp, I agree with you on developing Moscow, as I described here. I think we should buid two more workers now, before the next settler, and those two would focus on irrigating the Moscow corn. I don't see it slowing anything down in terms of REX, because we won't focus on growing Moscow till the Rice is done and we've popped out a coulpe more settler anyway.

Edit: That said, I think REX asap is critical. The sooner we create our cities, the sooner and longer they produce. In fact, the only reason NOT to REX asap in CIV is maintenance. That's one of the main reasons I wanted to do the CS slingshot--so we would then have a window to REX like mad without worrying about how much we kill our research for a while. Those gems down there we MUST grab asap, for example.

We need a quick unit to threaten dG, so we can DoP and keep that warrior down there exploring.

So, it looks like you're next bbp. Ou destiny is in your hands...
.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't want to be skipped completely but I'd like to switch with the player after me.

That's traditionally called a "swap," and of course it's all right. For players that have been skipped, we assume they'll grab a turnset when they come back, as soon as they feel ready.

 

[babybluepants]

@Mitchum,
Ok, I'm up and you're on deck then.

bbp, I agree with you on developing Moscow, as I described here. I think we should buid two more workers now, before the next settler, and those two would focus on irrigating the Moscow corn. I don't see it slowing anything down in terms of REX, because we won't focus on growing Moscow till the Rice is done and we've popped out a coulpe more settler anyway.

The issue is acquiring Agri and, more importantly, Pottery on a useful schedule. The new situation with Gandhi changes things now in this respect. First thing is to figure out how we can get max value out of him in the next few turns.

I just did the calc, and I think that COL was good for +2 Trade Relations until only Turn 68, unfortunately. There may be some discrepancy with real game, but I was previously getting very close (+/- 3% maybe) results with our test save. I'm getting that we need to gift an extra 78b on top of COL next turn (T76), and an additional 10bpt after that.

 

[babybluepants]

Missed this:

Edit: That said, I think REX asap is critical. The sooner we create our cities, the sooner and longer they produce. In fact, the only reason NOT to REX asap in CIV is maintenance.

So, if you had zero maintenance, you'd just build workers and settlers from size one?

I'm not suggesting we don't expand fast. On the contrary, what I'm saying is that growing Moscow asap will allow us to expand faster beyond the next 2-3 cities (silver - pigs - maybe marble), which is where the speed will actually matter. Edit: my claim needs testing, ofc...

 

[mdy]

I just did the calc, and I think that COL was good for +2 Trade Relations until only Turn 68, unfortunately. There may be some discrepancy with real game, but I was previously getting very close (+/- 3% maybe) results with our test save. I'm getting that we need to gift an extra 78b on top of COL next turn (T76), and an additional 10bpt after that.

Gifting him Maths at the same time as COL will solve this problem (and is essential for trading him CS)

Moscow asap will allow us to expand faster beyond the next 2-3 cities (silver - pigs - maybe marble), which is where the speed will actually matter.

A rough estimate I did indicated that the break even point is far bigger than this. If we want to seriously go for those gems we pretty well have to build a settler next. The GP farm to the south will take time to get started, and therefore needs to be founded ASAP. I would also be reluctant to delay a silver/marble city to the north, and we we will need more workers for these cities. In short I can't see that we have the time for the capital to enter an extended growth phase before rexing.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Missed this:

So, if you had zero maintenance, you'd just build workers and settlers from size one?

I'm not suggesting we don't expand fast. On the contrary, what I'm saying is that growing Moscow asap will allow us to expand faster beyond the next 2-3 cities (silver - pigs - maybe marble), which is where the speed will actually matter. Edit: my claim needs testing, ofc...

Well, the basic principle is to grow enough to work your resource tiles. That's where we're at, basically. Your save has you working a mine and building another. I'd rather focus on working the four resource tiles at Pigs, the silver and furs up north, and the gems tiles. The only reason I want to grow Moscow right now is to work rice when it finally resembles a resource tile (5f) and the silk tiles.

I'm not going to do the calcs but I highly doubt the mines are worth it right now, especially since Moscow is already starved for food.

 

[mdy]

A quick test:

If we stick at size 5 we can build 2 workers and 8 settlers (or there worker equivelants) in 32 turns.

If we grew to size 7 once the rice had been hooked up we could build 2 workers and 6.3 settlers in that time (though we could also build a granary + aquaduct in that time)

This means that our rex will be slower overall if we wait for the capital to grow.

 

[babybluepants]

Well, the basic principle is to grow enough to work your resource tiles. That's where we're at, basically. Your save has you working a mine and building another. I'd rather focus on working the four resource tiles at Pigs, the silver and furs up north, and the gems tiles. The only reason I want to grow Moscow right now is to work rice when it finally resembles a resource tile (5f) and the silk tiles.

I'm not going to do the calcs but I highly doubt the mines are worth it right now, especially since Moscow is already starved for food.

Depends how you define "worth it". A PH mine in Moscow is worth (4hpt)*1.5 = 6hpt under Bureau; 8hpt when building a settler; 10hpt when building TGL or MoM or anything using stone/marble. Could be 9/12/15hpt, if we find copper there. Barracks early may not be a particularly great investment, but a market certainly is.

There's no point arguing this any further, though. I obviously don't see the need to shave (I'm not sure how much exactly) 5-8t? off the expansion timeline, and you guys do. Fine. Can you play through a test or give me a detailed summary of what you propose?

First order of business is Gandhi. I hate just giving away CS, but I'm not sure what else we can do. It's hugely unfortunate that we dumped 3 techs on him already. I think that a COL gift should be first, in case my calc is off and it gives us immediate OB/trade.

Could we just tech Sailing and gift it with COL? Then trade Math for some smaller techs, and wait 'till Currency for Alpha?

 

[babybluepants]

For reference...

CURRENT ROSTER

babybluepants Played T27-40 UP
Mitchum Played T0-27 ON DECK (Swapped)
bcool Played T40-48
LowtherCastle Played T48-57
mdy Played T57-75
shyuhe M.I.A.
ZPV M.I.A.
mystyfly M.I.A.
Silu (lurking)
Soirana (in erasing mode)

 

[LowtherCastle]

Short laundry list for bbp's turnset

1.a. OBs/trade techs with Gandhi: As many as possible.
1.b. Unit to threaten dG and cheap DoP (urgent/asap) Can be southern warrior
1.c. Gift dG Sailing+Masonry, if we get them from Gandhi (urgent/asap)
1.d. Warrior continue exploring to the SW
1.e. Spread COnfucianism to Galley CIty, asap (move to Galley-E-SE)?
2. wkr-wkr-settler-settler
3. Roads toward Pigs, Moscow Rice, Silver
4. Build exploratory galley
5. Tech:
Currency (0% till we get Alpha)? ;
Monotheism, if we get Poly in trade? ;
Sailing/Masonry, if not in trade, for dG?
6. Revolt to Bureau, wait for BW/slavery?
7. How to get a galley to dG for worker stealing after 10t of peace? This should give us 10-20 wkrs by 0AD.
8. Run two scientists in Fish.
9. Consider DoP with Roosy, CHurchill after ALpha..
10. Monitor dG's production to see if he builds lh, is building GLH
11. Connect horses and build chariot.
12. Check the diplo screen and whether we're still Gandhi's WE after every trade or anything else that affects attitude mods.

 

[babybluepants]

We could use trading some resources to Gandhi asap, as well. How does this work? Would he even be able to trade if only Galley City is benefiting (i.e. it's not connected to his core)?

Do we have a reasonable test save?

 

[mdy]

I think we should add running scientists in fish to get an academy to the list.

In the test svae Gandhi is willing to trade CS for alphabet, bronze working, sailing, agriculture, pottery, and masonry so we should have no difficulty getting the required techs.

As we will only have to delay one turn to have access to slavery we may as well wait 1 turn before revolting, and keep the slider at 0% for that turn.

Getting a galley quickly in these circumstances looks difficult. If we really want one I guess our best bet is a rice/wine/deer city, though this means we might have to send some defenders to the South.


The attached test save has been played exactly as I played my turnset, but it has not be updated with the latest terrain info.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, I made a test save too, not realizing mdy was going to (easier). I'm only posting it because it has COnfucianism founded in Fish. I doubt the beakers are perfectly right, but I don't think that matters in our testing anymore. It's got everything else right, I'm pretty sure.

I don't think we can trade with Gandhi till one of us has a unhindered route from his capital to the other's capital.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This little piece of poopoogroats is going to have other teams either scratching their heads of grinning widely: