SGOTM 12 - Regular

[PaperBeetle]

Well I don't think it's a reputation breaker to sell a resource as part of an alliance, as long as we end the alliance by killing the victim, rather than by giving them peace. We ought to check some of these theories huh? I'll see if I can do some work with my recent Hittite submission which went to the modern age.

Edit: by 'the victim' I mean the civ we were allied against, not the civ we sell iron to. Of course, in the end, they are all our victims!

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

Hey, but you've got me going on the captured-Templars theory now! There's some good trickery we can do on the death of the Indians. That is to say we can sell Korea, Portugal and anyone else who knows Gandhi, up to Chivalry, for vast quantities of gpt. They build Templars for us while funding a large-scale upgrade of our horses and axes to maces and knights. Now because the capital is no longer doing Templars, it can build one-turn horses (well, we need to calculate how quickly we can get those forests done...) and we can use last-minute war deals to play virtual disconnect/reconnect without having to pillage 2spt in Constan. i.e. we sell our only iron source in an alliance, switch military builds to horses and axes, and then kill the target civ to get our iron back.

Wow! My brain just over-heated. If any of that has to happen on my watch I'm gonna need it spelling out step-by-step...

 

[PaperBeetle]

Well I'm finally glad I keep decent notes of my games!

Spoiler COTM34, names changed to protect the innocent :

- So I meet Dido in the early medieval. She is a little bit behind me in tech. I give her Republic and Engineering for some contacts.
- I embassy with Dido and renegotiate peace with her, including war with Merkel in the deal. This is a phoney war from my point of view, but Dido and Merkel are neighbours.
- I sell her (and many other people) contact with Rameses in the last turn of my war with him. My treatment of Rameses was (harsh but) fair. I also give her massive gpt for war with Rameses, and sell her a couple of medieval techs for my gpt back. And then whoops there is no more Rameses.
- Merkel and Dido fall to peace, so now Dido is at war with me. My people rejoice.
- Dido finally gets to meet my other neighbour, Hussein. I have kept a clean rep with him too.
- Give Dido peace for a modest payment (well, everything she had probably, ~200g).
- 20 turns later, she wants to renew peace. No deal.
- Capture her core pretty easily. She has three remote towns left.
- Over 20 turns after the war started, she comes looking for peace (there may have been other offers though) and I take one of her three towns for the deal.
- Some time later, Dido and Ivan embargo against me, but then Ivan winds up pretty soon after that.

So what's the point of all that? Well, by the end of the game, Dido was furious with me, to the point that even when I allied her against my UN rival, Beatrix, she abstained. Gifting her the length of the industrial and medieval eras, giving her all luxes, strats, ROP and MPP still did not lift her mood.

So I think we should decide who we want to keep around at the end of the game (i.e. scientifics), and who will be voting for us, and we make quite sure to be extra nice to our future supporters: no dowing them or getting them to dow us, no tech tricking off them, send them plush toys on their birthdays, and of course no breaking alliances with them.

I'll try and look at some of my other recent long games to see if I can glean any more specifics. Trouble is, I tend to play relatively honourably (relative to the GOTM average that is ) when going the distance, so I don't really get a feel for how much we can push our luck and still count on votes. A crucial issue is: can we use ROP rape?

 

[Kulko]

Hmm looks like we don't have that much to discuss

I would say go for it Tax, unless there is a point left unclear to you.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Well I still don't know what we are building in the capital, and I'm equivocal about the three sensible options...
- Templars: we would prefer for someone else to do it, both to save us the shields, and to waste their production just before we hit them. But we would get it fastest by building it ourselves (no wait for Sun Tzu to go) and guarantee that it wouldn't go to the wrong side of the world.
- Market: doesn't gain us much (cost: 1gpt, gain: 1gpt now, 2gpt when Delhi hooks).
- Knight: not a great unit in terms of back for buck. Is that the least negative option then? Also, we can do knight in 1 turn while Teo works the moo. For a market, Constan needs to take the moo and we waste the food.

Choice is yours Taxpayer.

In terms of transferring troops northwards, the Teo ferry can't get the AC from Azjap to Byzantium next turn, so maybe dump the two archers from Teo and Osaka across first, and send all 4 units currently in Byzantium up to India. Those two Mayan galleys bother me though. Smoke is gracious but that's no guarantee of anything...

Also there will be lots of workers finishing jobs on Azjap in 2 turns time who will want ferrying. So far we have invested 0 worker turns in planting, and there are a total of 27 worker turns required... 3.5 this turn, 3.5 next turn, 4 the turn after, then 4 again. Then maybe 2 more slaves are ferried, so 5, then 6 makes 26. Also there is some inefficiency in walking slaves over to the west coast forest site, so I would estimate that the forests will be ready in time for the 850>825bc interturn, with 4 or 6 more slaves needing to come over from Azjap. In other words we should have 6 more turns of poduction from Constan which are at less than 30spt.

Edit: I forgot there are a couple of slaves who just landed in Byzantium this turn. That makes it quite easy to get the forests done in time for the 875>850bc interturn. The guy doing the pointless road on the hill can even afford to finish up.
Basically, the 2 worker + 2 slave gang on the southeast coast does the normal grassland and the moo, while everybody else goes to do the ivory. Only 2 more slaves need bringing over from Azjap - presumably the two chopping the forest at Tenoch.

 

[socralynnek]

Hmmm, Knights Templar is 300 shields. How many units will we get? 10? 12? That would mean at least 50 attacking points. It isn't a tourist attraction (so no loss there if captured) and is obsolete with steam power which is how many turns away? If it is more than 100 turns away, that would even mean we get at least 18 units for the 300 shields.

I am fine with building it but I am also fine with not building it. I guess, both is ok.


I don't think we should split forces yet, the continent with Inida on it is big enough for us to hit. We might only want to try to kill a civ in one turn or so.

I don't think we should use ROP rapes. We don't really need it and it is a risk for our rep.

BTW, Both Spain and Ottomans have only 1 city but just Korea has 3 which means that one city is already razed. Or Ottomans did only build one (looking on the map that could have been the case)

BTW, Vikings are still in AA, so no threatening Zerks in sight...

 

[madviking]

We don't have to research steam... until after the other junk

 

[PaperBeetle]

 

[socralynnek]

Interesting. Another Sci civ who can't help us much with research...

 

[PaperBeetle]

The entry to the industrial might be a trickier wrangle than the entry to the medieval was, because of the astronomical value that the AI places on Nationalism, but I was basically expecting to get Nationalism, Steam and Medicine all on that first interturn. In keeping with our medieval performance, our free 2nd tier tech should be Ironclads while all the other teams get Electricity or Sanitation.
With regards to how fast do we get through the medieval... I don't have a feel for how our research speed develops through this age, but I think it will take long enough that Templars are worth obtaining. Also they look cool.

I'm attaching some more embassy screengrabs. Cuzco and Rome look like the kind of city we want to get working on Templars. Seoul and Lisbon look like the kind of city we wouldn't bother visiting even if Ryanair were doing 1 Euro flights. And Chichen will be just as weak, although I forgot to do my print screen on that one.
Of course, we can't hit the Inca with a tech trick versus India, because we already have an alliance with them. So that puts Rome top of our list, but that would be a very difficult invasion, especially of we were not going to rape Julius's ROP. Another option is to sell the Inca up to Chivalry as we buy them into war with the Mayans. In fact, I think I prefer that plan to the Roman one.

Edit: well, Lisbon is okay I suppose. The AI needs 180 shields for Templars, so Lisbon would do it in 15 turns, where Rome and Cuzco would take 12. Perhaps we just get them all going on early medieval wonders, then it doesn't matter so much who gets which one.

 

[Kulko]

The problem with the templars is, that they are 10-12 units later in the game. Are we confident in pour cutrrent Army to carry us through the Mayas at least without further reinforcements. I would rather develop a bit mor core right now, to speed up research. BTW do we go 50 turn research, or are we researching ourselves. How do the numbrs come out?

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

PaperBeetle suggested that we could sell our iron as part of a war alliance, allowing us to build 30s horses and upgrade to knights. We would then get our iron back when we killed our common foe. Now I quite like the idea but I'm not sure it'll work with the Indians. It'll take about four turns to get up to 30spt in Constan and I'd hope that Indian is just a footnote in history by then. That would allow us to build maybe one horse to upgrade. Doesn't seem worth it to me. For this idea to work surely we'd like to be operating at 30spt already and have a few turns without our iron to churn out a few horses before we conquer our common foe. Is this correct or have I misunderstood something.

I'm not likely to play until Monday so there's lots of opportunity to comment on our undecided issues (principally what to build in the capital).

I shall research theology, build libraries in our captured towns that have been fully slaved, slaves everywhere else. I will stop once India are dead and discuss plans again.

 

[Wardancer]

I have a few comments to add myself. I just need to collect my thoughts. Certainly before Monday.

 

[PaperBeetle]

We have 5 turns of production left at <30spt, and 2 turns already in the box. That's a market and a knight, or two knights and an archer, or 7/11 of the Templars. Once we hit 30spt, Constan will probably want to bulk up our fleet a bit anyway, so you are right that the iron gag only really becomes useful after the Indians are gone. So we should consider it for the Mayan campaign. The Inca already have their own iron, but maybe Portugal would buy it from us.
Once we don't have iron, Tenoch should be able to spit out some quick axes for us. I think Teo has a barracks already too?

 

[socralynnek]

Yeah, hopefully the AI will finance some upgrades then. But I guess we want full speed research until the end of the ame now, so we should not waste all our money on upgrades but rather waste it for deficit research (but maybe some Sci AI will always pay for our buildings...)

In this respect, this game is different from earlier ones where uprades would have been more important than research.

OTOH we can't have that many cities and thus not many buildings to pay for...

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

The save is uploaded here. I only played five turns, but I think that's enough damage for now.

I managed to lose five troops (2 archers, 2 swords and an AC) attacking Indian units in the open. It was particularly galling when a 1HP spear killed a sword and an archer.

But still the Indians are gone, but a turn or two slower than they should have been. No troops were lost on my attack on Bombay, which rather suggests I should have just charged straight onto Bombay and forgotten about the straggling Indian troops.

We got a leader which I made an army from and have filled with two elite ACs and a veteran AC.

Several units have movement points left - I have fortified them where they stand. So next guy up should check around and move units as appropriate. One of our captured towns has just produced a library and is now building an archer - obviously that will have to be changed.

I decided to build Templars because I think our early building of Zeus was an advantage. I think we're five turns from completion.

So apologies once again for halving the size of our army. I think the next guy up needs to start the war with the mayans, possibly with the Portugese's help.

Oh yeah and I switched research to theology.

The French have built the hanging gardens. The only good news is that we're still not in our golden age!

 

[socralynnek]

Roster:

Kulko - UP
madviking - on deck
socralynnek
Wardancer
PaperBeetle
TaxPayer'sMoney - just played
archphoenix - skipped for something called 'Real Life'


So, looking into the save - thoughts and observations:

-Only one AI has more than 2 cities (Korea has 3), that means we won't face some huge deity AI. OTOH we won't get much help in research...

-The continent where our army is, is big enough s.t. it is probably no mistake that the army is already filled. And we should research rather fast to Galleons anyway. Should the next leader already build an FP? It's Conquests, so maybe a rather close FP which comes soon is better than one in Paris later. Or are we going for France soon?

-Our plan for Rome should be:
Land units near Veii, take city. While Roman stack moves out, land Crusaders near Rome and take it. Crusaders are a nice unit to fight their legions and both cities can be bombarded with Dromons. Surely they can wait a little.

-Tech is spreading pretty slow, it would be nice if someone researches Invention for us. OTOH as long as Sumeria doesn't spread Feud to their neighbors, getting the Indian continent should be a piece of cake, especially with our new army...Please don't risk the army in a not that safe fight...

-Small wonders can't become a tourist attraction, so it doesn't matter where we build HE.

 

[Kulko]

Cities
Osaka:
I would whip the Lib there as the city produces food in abundancy anyway, but we need the increased radius soon to get any production going.

Teotihuacan
But I guess we want all of our harbour Cities to be size 12 as fast as possible, so I suggest building granary next.


War
What do you believ is the best way of attack? Neither MAya nor Portugal is bringing new ressources. I would suggest buying maya against Portugal to draw his forces furtwehr from home and then strike 2 fats hits with the reinforced ACs and Crusaders against there empty cities.

France
I assume the Cost and complexity of siuch an operation is not worth the gain. to travel to france we would have a great armada travel once around the world. This would take ages to prepare and ages to execute and all with a risk of failure, when we calculate the needed troops wrong.

Money
Any Idea what to do with this apart from making ornaments for our women?

 

[Wardancer]

Good effort TaxPayer I think it must have been a good effort to get the second Indian City in the 5 turns (especially with the bad RNG luck). I think army was also the correct call (although I perhaps would have thought this is something you consulted the team on). I'm also happy with teh Templars (although my guess is that Klarius will have one of the local AIs build it for him).

However, I thought not doing the tech trick when we wiped out India was perhaps quite a bad call though. Lots of people knew them and we had tech to sell. We probably missed out on some big gpt payments here.

Some generic points forward. I'll dl the save later and will try to come up with some more specific things.

In my view focus should be on expanding the empire. I am convinced that the key to this game is to quickly get a large empire of big towns that can churn out the huge number of beakers needed to hit these techs. A few villages with some libraries won't cut it!

I know this is obvious but there are two ways of doing this a) capturing new towns b) growing up the towns we have.

First in terms of capturing new towns. The best attack force imo is med infs + dromons. Med infs are easily produced by disconnect towns from the iron source to build warriors and then using our large gpt to upgrade these to med infs. We get the large gpt payments by wiping out civs and using the tech trick (we must from now on make sure we at least see if there are tech trick opportunities for each civ that we conquer).

In my view, we also need to speed up the growth of the towns we have got by using worker pumps. Where the food allows it we need to set up some 2 turn (or ideally) one turn worker pumps. These workers then (fully improve and then) build up the cities that can take it up to as far as happyness allows. This means irrigation and granaries.

Other improvements (harbours, libararies, aqueducts) should only be build as required. Where there is an obvious need (better tiles with expansion), need to ship resources or just a lot of commerce that really justifies it these buildings may become valid but as things stand I would expect most builds to be either for military or pop growth.

Three other points.

i) We should really try to bust civs in one turn. This way we keep their pop and don't have to starve them down. It also kills their units in the field which is much cheaper for us.

ii) We should have a hard look at whether there are any happyness wars we can start. As we grow our cities big the war happyness will really help.

iii) I don't think we want our golden age yet. We must continue to be vigilant in not accidentally starting this.

Discuss

 

[Wardancer]

Oh and to agree with Kulko on a couple of points too.

My preferred war route would be attack Maya signing Portugal on ourside using a rengotiate peace. Hopefully we could encouragethey will hold each other at the choke. We can sail our troups round to hit the Mayan cities.

At the same time I would try to get units in place next to the Portuguese cities so that when we wipe out the Maya we can immediately do a legal ROP rape on the Portuguese.

I agree the France campaign should be delayed at least until we have set up our core. Although once we have done this and have a leader I would suggest we go out of our way to set up Paris as the site for our FP.