Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Can't blame a guy for trying, heh! 
SGOTM 12 - Regular
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
Now he has told us that they finished at 1300 AD + 1 turnset (the last save is always suppressed...)
But our plan was to finish well before that anyway...
But our plan was to finish well before that anyway...
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Yeah I just got the victory screen this morning, so I came by to say hi. It's not much of a scoop really, the server will show our last save and the win date very soon. Whomp kept a very strict 24/48 schedule, props to that, and often turns were played well within that - ThERat played his within like 5 hours every time.
well then you should check your last turn not your first 
. Even the Beetles awesome Powers will have problems detecting Microerrors 10 turns in the past. But we all envy TheRAT for not having this kind of fears .
I will try to play tomorrow evening GMT, and I still prefe going after Portugal so convince me of the advantages of Maya. Also a test game with RoP tricking would be nice.
. Even the Beetles awesome Powers will have problems detecting Microerrors 10 turns in the past. But we all envy TheRAT for not having this kind of fears .I will try to play tomorrow evening GMT, and I still prefe going after Portugal so convince me of the advantages of Maya. Also a test game with RoP tricking would be nice.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
And that is probably why we'll beat them by far... ;-)
EDIT: Was an answer to Wardancer's post
EDIT: Was an answer to Wardancer's post
madviking
north american scum
Just for the fact, I've never played yet! 
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Sorry mv (and Kulko too, who's only played 2 turns until now!) You still good to go after Kulko?@BeF: good date on this game with so may obstacles
. I know you guys are softies at heart, so I wasn't expecting to see team Zoe leading the teams in territory, but that's what the graphs say...
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Thanks We played with our usual very strict rules of engagement but I think we did a good job blitzing through. I'm curious about how much one can win turns with all the engineer and jump and pillage exploits though...
We played with our usual very strict rules of engagement but I think we did a good job blitzing through. I'm curious about how much one can win turns with all the engineer and jump and pillage exploits though...
PaperBeetle
Emperor
And talking of blitzing, here are the results of my Renegotiation ROP Rape test game...
I am about to take down the Mayans, have an alliance + ROP + peace with the Germans, and one army and four units in their land (not enough to take them out, but then its just a test).
My per-turn rep is already in a battered state it seems, I can't remember why. I am talking to the X-man, who has his 2 towns for 62 tiles of territory, compared to my 227. He would give me ROP straight, but add 1g and he goes to doubt: I need to give him ROP + 6gpt for 1g. Without the ROP, 5gpt would buy me 15g. And my gpt is a total killer for hard goods purchases, i.e. he will sell Feudalism for Republic + Mono, but Republic + Mono + 1gpt is out of the question (I am running at positive gpt of course).
Now, I kill the Mayans, putting me at war with Germany. My territory is now 236. The value of my gpt in simple loans doesn't change (still ~3g) but a straight-up ROP with the X-man is a doubt. I need to pay him 112g extra to close the deal (or equivalent gpt, which for this deal seems to be valued at 18g, presumably because I am buying a strictly per-turn service?)
I then take 2 German towns to bring my territory to 254. ROP with the X-man now costs me 92g.
I am about to take down the Mayans, have an alliance + ROP + peace with the Germans, and one army and four units in their land (not enough to take them out, but then its just a test).
My per-turn rep is already in a battered state it seems, I can't remember why. I am talking to the X-man, who has his 2 towns for 62 tiles of territory, compared to my 227. He would give me ROP straight, but add 1g and he goes to doubt: I need to give him ROP + 6gpt for 1g. Without the ROP, 5gpt would buy me 15g. And my gpt is a total killer for hard goods purchases, i.e. he will sell Feudalism for Republic + Mono, but Republic + Mono + 1gpt is out of the question (I am running at positive gpt of course).
Now, I kill the Mayans, putting me at war with Germany. My territory is now 236. The value of my gpt in simple loans doesn't change (still ~3g) but a straight-up ROP with the X-man is a doubt. I need to pay him 112g extra to close the deal (or equivalent gpt, which for this deal seems to be valued at 18g, presumably because I am buying a strictly per-turn service?)
I then take 2 German towns to bring my territory to 254. ROP with the X-man now costs me 92g.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
That does mean...it is not rep safe, right?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Right. But I will check it again, to see whether the devaluation of my ROP was equal to or less than it would have been had I used a standard ROP rape.
I will also check whether there is a rep hit if it is the Germans who finish off the Mayans - of course this leads to the problem that the war starts on the German turn, so my units are open to attack, but still it's worth testing. I have certainly tried using this last ploy before in GOTMs, but I don't recall what the outcome was in terms of rep. Theoretically it should be safe, as the AI is responsible for breaking the war deal.
Edit: and would the outcome be different if the ROP was not tied to the renegotiated peace? That certainly sounds like a good candidate for a rep-safe method.
I will also check whether there is a rep hit if it is the Germans who finish off the Mayans - of course this leads to the problem that the war starts on the German turn, so my units are open to attack, but still it's worth testing. I have certainly tried using this last ploy before in GOTMs, but I don't recall what the outcome was in terms of rep. Theoretically it should be safe, as the AI is responsible for breaking the war deal.
Edit: and would the outcome be different if the ROP was not tied to the renegotiated peace? That certainly sounds like a good candidate for a rep-safe method.
Last Warning: I will play tonite and I am still convinved, that attacking Portugal is better than Maya. If the team believes otherwise, I would like to have more specific instructions how to handle the Mayans standing in the mdidle of India and how to get the Portugese to the close the gap.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
I meant that when I tested it, I called up Otto and renegotiated my peace: peace + alliance against Maya + ROP. So perhaps the ROP rep is damaged by association with the alliance, which I was definitely responsible for breaking.
I could have done it in two steps: (1) renegotiate peace: peace + alliance, (2) ROP for ROP, no strings attached.
Re: Portugal or Maya. I prefer the Mayan war simply because they should have fewer units - they were at war with India, and Portugal was not. This whole theory about the Portugese blocking the choke seems a bit fantastical to me, but they should still be in the area helping out.
My prediction for war with Maya would go: we wait a turn or two to heal our units. The Mayans in India start walking home. We dow the Mayans and buy in Portugal and the Inca, and use our units in India to kill the stray Mayan javelins - there's only six units isn't there? Taxpayer will have to say if he saw more somewhere. We don't need to worry about axes and spears, as they can't take our towns if we have defenders. Let the Portuguese kill them. We heal up a bit again, if necessary, then load up into the dromons (maybe we set up a ship chain beforehand) and sail around to the Mayan towns. By now, fresh Mayan troops and our Portugese allies should be fighting in the grass area between India and the choke - of course we need a small contingent to stay in India for safety's sake, perhaps it is the AC army, which would otherwise have to fight its way over the choke. We take out the probably lightly defended Mayan towns.
Of course the trouble with this whole plan is that we are pretty short on units right now. But that is also a problem if we go to war with Portugal. Maybe we will find that we have to go a little slower for a while.
Oh, also the Mayan land may be a bit dry right now, but at least it is closer to Byzantium than Portugal. Chichen is at RCP11, whereas Lisbon is at RCP20.
I could have done it in two steps: (1) renegotiate peace: peace + alliance, (2) ROP for ROP, no strings attached.
Re: Portugal or Maya. I prefer the Mayan war simply because they should have fewer units - they were at war with India, and Portugal was not. This whole theory about the Portugese blocking the choke seems a bit fantastical to me, but they should still be in the area helping out.
My prediction for war with Maya would go: we wait a turn or two to heal our units. The Mayans in India start walking home. We dow the Mayans and buy in Portugal and the Inca, and use our units in India to kill the stray Mayan javelins - there's only six units isn't there? Taxpayer will have to say if he saw more somewhere. We don't need to worry about axes and spears, as they can't take our towns if we have defenders. Let the Portuguese kill them. We heal up a bit again, if necessary, then load up into the dromons (maybe we set up a ship chain beforehand) and sail around to the Mayan towns. By now, fresh Mayan troops and our Portugese allies should be fighting in the grass area between India and the choke - of course we need a small contingent to stay in India for safety's sake, perhaps it is the AC army, which would otherwise have to fight its way over the choke. We take out the probably lightly defended Mayan towns.
Of course the trouble with this whole plan is that we are pretty short on units right now. But that is also a problem if we go to war with Portugal. Maybe we will find that we have to go a little slower for a while.
Oh, also the Mayan land may be a bit dry right now, but at least it is closer to Byzantium than Portugal. Chichen is at RCP11, whereas Lisbon is at RCP20.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
I agree with Paper Beetle, I think the Mayan war is better now, especially because the cities are closer.
We could even buy in someone else besides Portugal for that.
We could even buy in someone else besides Portugal for that.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
And we should look to see if we can get our iron tied to a war deal here. Unfortunately the Inca have their own iron, but I don't think the Portuguese (or Mayans if you are still resolved to go north) have any (unless they are buying Rome's spare source). The Spanish are probably available for alliances and/or iron dumping.
Also we should see if we can spot any wars going on elsewhere between AIs, and get involved with a peace renegotiation. We could do with someone dowing us, as luxury spending is taking quite a bite out of our beaker potential.
If we have time before 'losing' our iron, and before starting the next attack, we should send any remaining swords back to Constantinople to get refitted with maces.
And good luck!
Also we should see if we can spot any wars going on elsewhere between AIs, and get involved with a peace renegotiation. We could do with someone dowing us, as luxury spending is taking quite a bite out of our beaker potential.
If we have time before 'losing' our iron, and before starting the next attack, we should send any remaining swords back to Constantinople to get refitted with maces.
And good luck!
Noted, I think it will take 3 turns to heal our army (which is pretty beaten) and then I will Dow leaving the Army and a couple of spears as a defense in India and shipping everything else to Chichen Izta.
I will try to buy Port by Iron and Inca by available technologies.
I will try to find foreign wars and then I will offer our alliance for a renegotiated peace. So when they get bored of kicking themselves, they declare war on us? Shoudl I protect our Japstec holdings more then? I mean we don't wanmt to loose our towns to razing Marauders.
I will look at the upgrade of maces, but it sounds a bit short on time, as delhi hasn't Iron yet and shipping might be to long.
I will finish a wonder and then build a market or maces? I like market more, but I think right now we need army and the wonder units don't come in fast enough.
Micromanage towns as discussed, but agree that we should let Kyoto just grow. BTW is there WW in Feudalism? otherwise there is really no reason to grow these guys out of the town. Worker are plenty right now and we are conquering slaves with each coming war.
Should I manage to kill Maya in my turnset, which I doubt, given the state of our Army, I will do most evil tech trading beforehand.
I will try to avoid a golden age, but to be honest, I believe thios is more or less a matter of luck, as sooner or later some poor guy will want to drown on our Dromons.
I will try to buy Port by Iron and Inca by available technologies.
I will try to find foreign wars and then I will offer our alliance for a renegotiated peace. So when they get bored of kicking themselves, they declare war on us? Shoudl I protect our Japstec holdings more then? I mean we don't wanmt to loose our towns to razing Marauders.
I will look at the upgrade of maces, but it sounds a bit short on time, as delhi hasn't Iron yet and shipping might be to long.
I will finish a wonder and then build a market or maces? I like market more, but I think right now we need army and the wonder units don't come in fast enough.
Micromanage towns as discussed, but agree that we should let Kyoto just grow. BTW is there WW in Feudalism? otherwise there is really no reason to grow these guys out of the town. Worker are plenty right now and we are conquering slaves with each coming war.
Should I manage to kill Maya in my turnset, which I doubt, given the state of our Army, I will do most evil tech trading beforehand.
I will try to avoid a golden age, but to be honest, I believe thios is more or less a matter of luck, as sooner or later some poor guy will want to drown on our Dromons.
