PaperBeetle
Emperor
If a good thrashing needs to be handed out to the Romans, perhaps Wardancer is available to deliver it?
SGOTM 12 - Regular
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
If a good thrashing needs to be handed out to the Romans, perhaps Wardancer is available to deliver it?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Okay, I'll grab it for a bit.
Looking at the save now. My first thought is: please can people stop making useless improvements? This is the second time I pick up the game and find workers mining a tile that no city will ever be able to use. Why?
France has Guns already. Right now they would swap Astronomy for Guns, but I'm going to try and wait 3 turns to make sure of Copernicus. I guess it will by then cost some money.
Looking at the save now. My first thought is: please can people stop making useless improvements? This is the second time I pick up the game and find workers mining a tile that no city will ever be able to use. Why?
France has Guns already. Right now they would swap Astronomy for Guns, but I'm going to try and wait 3 turns to make sure of Copernicus. I guess it will by then cost some money.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
Copernicus is more important than Guns now. They might even not research Astro (archphoenix could surely tell us what they'll research...)
So, I'm fine with that. Maybe they sell Guns (but don't know to whom) and we et it even cheaper.
So, I'm fine with that. Maybe they sell Guns (but don't know to whom) and we et it even cheaper.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Well I wish I hadn't done that. 190 ad
I'm thinking of resigning from Team Regular at this point as I do not have the skill to do a decent job for the team.
This was probably not that absolute worst 9 turns of civ I ever played, but it certainly felt like it. Gains this turnset were the two Spanish loans, Pasargadae, Gunpowder (we have saltpeter, Joan does not), and we will get Copernicus next turn provided Constan doesn't riot over the interturn.
Losses this turnset were, erm, most of our army.
Taking Tenoch back from the Spanish cost a knight, a horse, 2 maces and a crusader. Oh let me quote myself now...
To the Persians we lost a longbow, a knight, 2 maces and 2 crusaders (one of them when Perspepolis flipped).
We also lost an AC and a horse taking back Bombay, a longbow to the Romans outside Tenoch, and a crusader and a knight trying to kill an American sword. Yes, we are still at war with America... I can't give a good reason why, except that I saw the opportunity to throw some units away for no gain, and couldn't resist.
That flip also cut several luxury trades, but I've spoken to the guys involved and they seem to be okay about it. We could renew the trades, but now I'm scared of more flips, and I do still worry whether the value of our trade rep is degraded by this kind of event.
Unsuprisingly, we have plenty of war weariness to the Persians. I guess we need to either give them peace now, or take Tiwanaku back, trading away one scientific civ for the reduced worry of Persep or Pasar flipping. I'm not sure which approach I favour... it's kind of got personal between me and the X-Man now.
I'm thinking of resigning from Team Regular at this point as I do not have the skill to do a decent job for the team.
This was probably not that absolute worst 9 turns of civ I ever played, but it certainly felt like it. Gains this turnset were the two Spanish loans, Pasargadae, Gunpowder (we have saltpeter, Joan does not), and we will get Copernicus next turn provided Constan doesn't riot over the interturn.
Losses this turnset were, erm, most of our army.
Taking Tenoch back from the Spanish cost a knight, a horse, 2 maces and a crusader. Oh let me quote myself now...
To the Persians we lost a longbow, a knight, 2 maces and 2 crusaders (one of them when Perspepolis flipped).
We also lost an AC and a horse taking back Bombay, a longbow to the Romans outside Tenoch, and a crusader and a knight trying to kill an American sword. Yes, we are still at war with America... I can't give a good reason why, except that I saw the opportunity to throw some units away for no gain, and couldn't resist.
That flip also cut several luxury trades, but I've spoken to the guys involved and they seem to be okay about it. We could renew the trades, but now I'm scared of more flips, and I do still worry whether the value of our trade rep is degraded by this kind of event.
Unsuprisingly, we have plenty of war weariness to the Persians. I guess we need to either give them peace now, or take Tiwanaku back, trading away one scientific civ for the reduced worry of Persep or Pasar flipping. I'm not sure which approach I favour... it's kind of got personal between me and the X-Man now.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
MMM, if one can trust CA II, the flip risk for Perepolis and Pasargadae are acceptable. Did Persepolis flip before you had Pasargadae? Afterwards it would have been very bad luck.
We need to starve them a little and then we should be safe.
Maybe we could make peace with all we are at war with now and then rebuild our army.
As we won't get very productive towns (except for when we get the FP), it is not that decisive if we relax a little with conquering and start rebuilding a little. It is still a science game after all and us getting Copernicus is really helpful in that respect!
Let's get Newton's there too...
BTW...the Spanish are gone...one civ to gift to less...
OK, so I vote for: Make peace with all (the WW lost will surely be as much as the WH lost).
Rebuild shortly. Kill Portugal and Netherlands. Research towards Newton's after Banking.
We need to starve them a little and then we should be safe.
Maybe we could make peace with all we are at war with now and then rebuild our army.
As we won't get very productive towns (except for when we get the FP), it is not that decisive if we relax a little with conquering and start rebuilding a little. It is still a science game after all and us getting Copernicus is really helpful in that respect!
Let's get Newton's there too...
BTW...the Spanish are gone...one civ to gift to less...
OK, so I vote for: Make peace with all (the WW lost will surely be as much as the WH lost).
Rebuild shortly. Kill Portugal and Netherlands. Research towards Newton's after Banking.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Yes, the flip was just as I had finally got the army and a couple of decent units up to Pasar. So I had to go back west to take Persep, then back east and I only just picked up Pasar this turn. Ugh, that's really the tone of the whole turnset.
Here's the full log...
Most land units have moved this turn, but most ships have not.
I think you are right that we don't need to kill the Persians. Those towns can be starved/slaved/whipped down and bulked up again by the stream of workers we have coming out of Osaka. For Pasar, I suggest we suppress the resisters fast then whip a library out to relieve the cultural pressure form the Dutch.
Our military is strong to everyone except France and the Mongols, but we can afford another 14 units before we even start paying support costs.
Here's the full log...
Spoiler Warning! Makes for painful reading :
Most land units have moved this turn, but most ships have not.
I think you are right that we don't need to kill the Persians. Those towns can be starved/slaved/whipped down and bulked up again by the stream of workers we have coming out of Osaka. For Pasar, I suggest we suppress the resisters fast then whip a library out to relieve the cultural pressure form the Dutch.
Our military is strong to everyone except France and the Mongols, but we can afford another 14 units before we even start paying support costs.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
Roster Check
madviking - UP, available?
socralynnek - can't play til April 30
Wardancer - on deck
TaxPayer'sMoney - thinks of retiring
PaperBeetle - just played
Kulko - skipped for a few days
archphoenix - skipping
Sorry, if I have to slow it down a little further, but I have an important weak at university...after which I hopefully get my degree...
We have armies...that is our big advantage to the AI, ut against the Romans we can't use them atm, so I think we should amke peace with them at least.
And peace with America is better, I think cause of WW. We can't hit them soon anyway.
OK, with our army, the Durch should also fall quite quickly.
madviking - UP, available?
socralynnek - can't play til April 30
Wardancer - on deck
TaxPayer'sMoney - thinks of retiring
PaperBeetle - just played
Kulko - skipped for a few days
archphoenix - skipping
Sorry, if I have to slow it down a little further, but I have an important weak at university...after which I hopefully get my degree...
We have armies...that is our big advantage to the AI, ut against the Romans we can't use them atm, so I think we should amke peace with them at least.
And peace with America is better, I think cause of WW. We can't hit them soon anyway.
OK, with our army, the Durch should also fall quite quickly.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Re: Banking. We can get it in 2 turns if we get peace with Persia, and maybe we also need to trade in a luxury or two from somewhere. Whatever it takes to allow us to go back to 100% science and get our people in Kyoto back to work.
Banking has 450 beakers left. We will get an extra 36 from Copernicus next turn, so we just need to get the empire micro'd up to 207 beakers now. That's just another 17 beakers on our current 100% science position, which is no trouble. Just running scientists in Pasargadae will probably cover most of it. Maybe another one or two in corrupt towns.
Should we immediately sell Banking to Joan to get our treasury back? Or wait to see what she is researching? I think I would actually vote for the sale, because even if she is doing Metallurgy, I don't think she would agree to swap them - Metallurgy is significantly more expensive than Banking.
Also, that cash will be useful for rebuilding our army with horse upgrades.
Banking has 450 beakers left. We will get an extra 36 from Copernicus next turn, so we just need to get the empire micro'd up to 207 beakers now. That's just another 17 beakers on our current 100% science position, which is no trouble. Just running scientists in Pasargadae will probably cover most of it. Maybe another one or two in corrupt towns.
Should we immediately sell Banking to Joan to get our treasury back? Or wait to see what she is researching? I think I would actually vote for the sale, because even if she is doing Metallurgy, I don't think she would agree to swap them - Metallurgy is significantly more expensive than Banking.
Also, that cash will be useful for rebuilding our army with horse upgrades.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
And Joan building Banks is not that bad. She might sell the money she gets there to us somehat soon for some other tech (I hope we can get to a faster research rate than Joan with Copernicus on our hands)
She is the only one whoe really could finance our 100% science rate, I guess.
She is the only one whoe really could finance our 100% science rate, I guess.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Korea might be some help now that they have a nice little four-town core. The Mongols have four towns too of course, but they are the kind of civ who are disinclined to do anything to emphasise commerce. Indeed I would prefer to go to war with them than the Dutch, as Will gets those ferocious 1.4.1 pikes. Given that our army was typically using up about 14hp to kill a single Persian pike, I dread to think how we would fare against the Swiss variety.
Temu is solidly stuck in the ancient age, so although he is listed as having that big army, it should be all horses and swords at best.
We still have the option of taking on the Portuguese - we have that stack of Portuguese spears locked up ready for a boot dow. I presume that Portugal is the easiest target we have available, but whoever we choose to concentrate on, we should gather our military together a bit and hit them hard enough to make it stick.
@socral: Absolutely take your time! I did my degree on a min research run, so I can say from experience that it's something that isn't worth compromising on. By the time I finished Maths I couldn't get any decent trades for it. Or something like that.
Temu is solidly stuck in the ancient age, so although he is listed as having that big army, it should be all horses and swords at best.
We still have the option of taking on the Portuguese - we have that stack of Portuguese spears locked up ready for a boot dow. I presume that Portugal is the easiest target we have available, but whoever we choose to concentrate on, we should gather our military together a bit and hit them hard enough to make it stick.
@socral: Absolutely take your time! I did my degree on a min research run, so I can say from experience that it's something that isn't worth compromising on. By the time I finished Maths I couldn't get any decent trades for it. Or something like that.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
Seems it's quiet here for a few days, if madviking and wardancer can't play...
PB, do you wanna write our spoiler in the meantime until it is moving again?
PB, do you wanna write our spoiler in the meantime until it is moving again?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Oo, good point, we've met the conditions haven't we? I'll get rereading the thread and post up a draft spoiler in the next couple of days.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Welcome back 
Er, yes, sort of waiting for you. The save is currently up for grabs, but I played the last turnset (I won't say exactly how many shields worth of units we lost, but I have counted
), socral is off until next week, Taxpayer and arch are skipping, and madviking and Wardancer have just gone quiet. So I was hoping you could play next. 
Er, yes, sort of waiting for you. The save is currently up for grabs, but I played the last turnset (I won't say exactly how many shields worth of units we lost, but I have counted
), socral is off until next week, Taxpayer and arch are skipping, and madviking and Wardancer have just gone quiet. So I was hoping you could play next. got it and will play a few turns on my traintrip home.
Just a few questions:
A) I understand I should make peace with Persia and Rome?
B) Is there any tool were I can check war Weariness with america? Becuase as far as I understand it this is still a pure happyness war, as we never were in their territorry and haven't lost much units.
C) What to research after Banking? We need some optional techs for the tech trick? Or should I research Chemistry to reduce the asking price?
D) So who is our next target and what is needed there? to conquer Port we should need a few more units there don't we?
E) Anything special that needs to be build in COn or anywhere else?
Just a few questions:
A) I understand I should make peace with Persia and Rome?
B) Is there any tool were I can check war Weariness with america? Becuase as far as I understand it this is still a pure happyness war, as we never were in their territorry and haven't lost much units.
C) What to research after Banking? We need some optional techs for the tech trick? Or should I research Chemistry to reduce the asking price?
D) So who is our next target and what is needed there? to conquer Port we should need a few more units there don't we?
E) Anything special that needs to be build in COn or anywhere else?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Sorry, work a bit of a pain this morning - overslept.
Peace to Persia will probably be enough to clear the war weariness. I think we have lost three or four units to each of the Romans and Americans. Peace with them is just to get our heads clear again, stop distracting ourselves and allow the military to concentrate on building up and preparing for the next war. Which as you say is probably Portugal, and will need more troops.
We should be able to get enough smiles from luxury trading to keep our lux slider at 0%.
Mm, techs. We somehow got a bit turned around here, with the lack of a decent Copernicus prebuild being at the root of the problem. I tried putting Joan's current tech situation into Ambiorix's AI research guesser and it predicts relatively similar probabilities that Joan is doing Navigation (least likely), Chemistry, Music, Printing or Banking (most likely).
So our best path would have been get Astro, trade it for Guns as soon as we could, go Chemistry, and swap that for Joan's Banking. Indeed, given that the size of our Copernicus prebuild limited the date of the Astro<>Guns trade, I think Taxpayer was actually correct to start self research on Guns! The other option to tide us over that period would have been Printing.
Anyway, here we are due to finish Banking soon, and we need to research something else. I think we should sell Banking to Joan right away, (assuming she doesn't beat us to it of course) and start Chemistry. The model predicts that Joan is more likely to start some optional tech than go for Chemistry, so to keep the pace going we must do it ourselves, and maybe we want to buy that optional for use in the tech trick.
Indeed, the only remaining medieval tech with a significant AI weighting is Magnetism, so we should try to park Joan on that tech as soon as possible? It would seem that the best chance to do another 2nd tier tech trick would be (1) research Chemistry, trade it to Joan, (2) research Physics, trade it to Joan, (3) research Gravity (shall we take Newton for Constan? I would vote yes), (4) research an optional or two, and start Metallurgy, (5) buy Magnetism from Joan, (6) finish Metallurgy and go industrial, (7) trade merrily on the interturn and get Fascism free!
Peace to Persia will probably be enough to clear the war weariness. I think we have lost three or four units to each of the Romans and Americans. Peace with them is just to get our heads clear again, stop distracting ourselves and allow the military to concentrate on building up and preparing for the next war. Which as you say is probably Portugal, and will need more troops.
We should be able to get enough smiles from luxury trading to keep our lux slider at 0%.
Mm, techs. We somehow got a bit turned around here, with the lack of a decent Copernicus prebuild being at the root of the problem. I tried putting Joan's current tech situation into Ambiorix's AI research guesser and it predicts relatively similar probabilities that Joan is doing Navigation (least likely), Chemistry, Music, Printing or Banking (most likely).
So our best path would have been get Astro, trade it for Guns as soon as we could, go Chemistry, and swap that for Joan's Banking. Indeed, given that the size of our Copernicus prebuild limited the date of the Astro<>Guns trade, I think Taxpayer was actually correct to start self research on Guns!
The other option to tide us over that period would have been Printing.Anyway, here we are due to finish Banking soon, and we need to research something else. I think we should sell Banking to Joan right away, (assuming she doesn't beat us to it of course) and start Chemistry. The model predicts that Joan is more likely to start some optional tech than go for Chemistry, so to keep the pace going we must do it ourselves, and maybe we want to buy that optional for use in the tech trick.
Indeed, the only remaining medieval tech with a significant AI weighting is Magnetism, so we should try to park Joan on that tech as soon as possible? It would seem that the best chance to do another 2nd tier tech trick would be (1) research Chemistry, trade it to Joan, (2) research Physics, trade it to Joan, (3) research Gravity (shall we take Newton for Constan? I would vote yes), (4) research an optional or two, and start Metallurgy, (5) buy Magnetism from Joan, (6) finish Metallurgy and go industrial, (7) trade merrily on the interturn and get Fascism free!
Taxpayer'sMoney
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 206
Sorry Indeed, given that the size of our Copernicus prebuild limited the date of the Astro<>Guns trade, I think Taxpayer was actually correct to start self research on Guns!
I wouldn't worry about that. My choice of gunpowder was based on no thinking whatsoever, and any likelihood that it was the correct decision is all down to luck.
Taxpayer'sMoney
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 206
Indeed, given that the size of our Copernicus prebuild limited the date of the Astro<>Guns trade, I think Taxpayer was actually correct to start self research on Guns!
I wouldn't worry about that. My choice of gunpowder was based on no thinking whatsoever, and any likelihood that it was the correct decision is all down to luck.
