archphoenix
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Messages
- 355
mmm, I miss the silk deal.
SGOTM 12 - Regular
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
PaperBeetle
Emperor
I have tested this style of deal (we give hard goods only in exchange for resource, starting during our mainturn). In the 1210>1220ad interturn we should get the message that the deal has ended, but we will get the benefit of those silks over that interturn. It even seems that the happiness situation won't get recalculated during the 1220ad mainturn until we touch the sliders, so we must remember to do that to avoid being surprised by a bunch of riots on the next interturn.
It would be ideal if we could attack across the forts in 1220ad and capture Bergen's silks that turn, but it would also be sufficient to find towns that are about to riot, and simply shift a couple of citizens off the land and into science.
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
I suggest you play PB, I don't have time today and I think the final turns should this time be in the hand of the best player(s), I already had the honor to end the last one.
EDIT: I wanted to say with that: I don't have time to play before Saturday.
BTW, I still vote for attacking Carthage next.
EDIT: I wanted to say with that: I don't have time to play before Saturday.
BTW, I still vote for attacking Carthage next.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Well I'm rushing to finish the Sumerian game so I probably won't get any SG turns played in the next 60 hours. I think there are three turnsets left; (1) Motors & Carthage, (2) Flight & Scandinavia (or China) and (3) the final interturn. I was angling for the final interturn myself, Captain's perogative 
. But I can do Carthage or Scandinavia instead if needed.
You couldn't rely on me playing any turns. If I so much as bring the DVD near my laptop it starts wailing and gnashing its teeth.
But I do suspect that underneath the artless graphics and the clumsy user interface there hides a decent game. So if you do put a team together I would certainly come on board as an official team lurker.
. But I can do Carthage or Scandinavia instead if needed.You couldn't rely on me playing any turns. If I so much as bring the DVD near my laptop it starts wailing and gnashing its teeth.
But I do suspect that underneath the artless graphics and the clumsy user interface there hides a decent game. So if you do put a team together I would certainly come on board as an official team lurker.
Hi guys,
got a bit late yesterday at work, but I managed to look at the save at least and try to formulate my questions:
1. We are right now about 4 beakers short of 4 turn research. But with all the Commercial Docks coming online next turn, I will not sacrifice production for more research as we will make up the missing beakers easily. Correct?
2. How do I attack Carthage best? For me it looks like I need to land on the declaration turn, as we dont want an ROP with China. So I think I can conquer earliest in 4 turns? (1 turn heal, 1 turn stage, 1 turn declare, 1 turn conquer)
3. I will try to free one transport to move our cavs around the chokepoint and set them up for a speedy conquest of Skandinavia.
4. I need to reduce building speed for the palace significantly. preferably by watering some mines again, and creating more scientists.
5. Anything else?
got a bit late yesterday at work, but I managed to look at the save at least and try to formulate my questions:
1. We are right now about 4 beakers short of 4 turn research. But with all the Commercial Docks coming online next turn, I will not sacrifice production for more research as we will make up the missing beakers easily. Correct?
2. How do I attack Carthage best? For me it looks like I need to land on the declaration turn, as we dont want an ROP with China. So I think I can conquer earliest in 4 turns? (1 turn heal, 1 turn stage, 1 turn declare, 1 turn conquer)
3. I will try to free one transport to move our cavs around the chokepoint and set them up for a speedy conquest of Skandinavia.
4. I need to reduce building speed for the palace significantly. preferably by watering some mines again, and creating more scientists.
5. Anything else?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
1. Yes, there will be more docks coming on-line. Conversely, there are several towns running lots of scientists because they have large food overrurns this turn, so those scientists will be back to working the land next turn.
But overall I can't imagine there is any danger of us missing the 4-turn target. In the worst case we just have to appoint a lot of scientists on the final turn - bear in mind that even with a library and university, a no-river land tile only makes 2bpt minus corruption. So it is easy for us to find extra beakers if we are prepared to sacrifice food and shields.
2 & 4. I've been thinking about how the prebuild dictates our war schedule, and I came up with the following scheme...
Of course, the military plan gets less certain towards the end, as much depends on our combat results in the first attack. But I highlighted in red the important bit; the need to have 34 towns by the 1230>1240 interturn, to allow the prebuild to go over 900 shields in that interturn. If we are a turn late, it is still possible to get the last ~110 shields in only two turns, but it takes a lot of workers to arrange (add several to Kyoto as engineers before mining everything for a big food deficit).
If we get the towns on schedule, the workers have a pretty easy job controlling the build speed in Kyoto; just a couple of irrigations to do, and keep the citizens off the hill.
3. The schedule above assumes that we use a ship chain to unload (presumably 12) units onto the mountain, rather than attacking over the forts. Which route we choose depends on how well the forts are defended (and are they even accessible or are French troops blocking the whole area?).
But let us not worry overmuch about the Scandinavia campaign just yet. To misquote Schlieffen, "only keep the Carthaginian wing strong". (Ooh, how ironic! Wiki says Schlieffen cribbed his Plan from Hannibal's defeat of the Romans
.)
Anyway as long as we can keep our transports spread out along the Carthage-Thebes, Teo-Persep and Mongolia-Scandinavia routes, we should concentrate all our most powerful troops on Carthage, and then transfer the best of the survivors to Scandinavia in a single turn, with reinforcements coming from Constan and maybe other core towns.
But overall I can't imagine there is any danger of us missing the 4-turn target. In the worst case we just have to appoint a lot of scientists on the final turn - bear in mind that even with a library and university, a no-river land tile only makes 2bpt minus corruption. So it is easy for us to find extra beakers if we are prepared to sacrifice food and shields.
2 & 4. I've been thinking about how the prebuild dictates our war schedule, and I came up with the following scheme...
Of course, the military plan gets less certain towards the end, as much depends on our combat results in the first attack. But I highlighted in red the important bit; the need to have 34 towns by the 1230>1240 interturn, to allow the prebuild to go over 900 shields in that interturn. If we are a turn late, it is still possible to get the last ~110 shields in only two turns, but it takes a lot of workers to arrange (add several to Kyoto as engineers before mining everything for a big food deficit).
If we get the towns on schedule, the workers have a pretty easy job controlling the build speed in Kyoto; just a couple of irrigations to do, and keep the citizens off the hill.
3. The schedule above assumes that we use a ship chain to unload (presumably 12) units onto the mountain, rather than attacking over the forts. Which route we choose depends on how well the forts are defended (and are they even accessible or are French troops blocking the whole area?).
But let us not worry overmuch about the Scandinavia campaign just yet. To misquote Schlieffen, "only keep the Carthaginian wing strong". (Ooh, how ironic! Wiki says Schlieffen cribbed his Plan from Hannibal's defeat of the Romans
.)Anyway as long as we can keep our transports spread out along the Carthage-Thebes, Teo-Persep and Mongolia-Scandinavia routes, we should concentrate all our most powerful troops on Carthage, and then transfer the best of the survivors to Scandinavia in a single turn, with reinforcements coming from Constan and maybe other core towns.
archphoenix
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Messages
- 355
I think units don't heal while in transports.
and why we ship units from carthage to viking?
does it better to match southeast after carthage battle,
(I don't open the save but I think it's China southeast the carthage)
and why we ship units from carthage to viking?
does it better to match southeast after carthage battle,
(I don't open the save but I think it's China southeast the carthage)
Hmm in General I think I miss something. WE are severely lacking transport chains in the southern oceans, so the fastest way to gte to carthage is 5-6 turns I believe. Unless we draft up new infantries and let the sentries from our mainland lead the war without artillery support. But we could be in America in 3-4 turns, so maybe thats an better Idea?
Implemented all other measures, but wait for feedback on that question.
Implemented all other measures, but wait for feedback on that question.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Mm, maybe it's just armies then. I was playing the Rise of Rome scenario last week, and shipped the Augustus Caesar army down to Carthage to make a nuisance of itself; pillaging tiles, razing towns, picking off stray units etc. After a couple of decades the army was looking pretty beaten up, and Carthage got their own army (Hannibal's elephants) moving. Hannibal looked like he could take Caesar easily, so I jumped out of Carthage onto a galley I had waiting, and started sailing back to a Roman town to heal up. But by the time I reached Sicily the army was fully healed already.
I think we should stop and consider the China / Scandinavia issue before we ship any troops back out of Carthage, but I think there are two main reasons we are looking at Scandinavia. (1) We have some units there waiting already and (2) Mao looks like the kind of guy who will give us a vote for sure. Ragnar looks like the kind of guy who might abstain if we can ally with him, and vote against us if we can't.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Ah logistics, logistics. I must admit I didn't work out every unit's move, but I'm sure we can get enough units to Carthage in time. My reference point was the time it takes for the army to get from Ulundi to Carthage. This interturn the army should heal, and the harbour in Leipzig should complete (finished off with a disbanded artillery if that hasn't already been done); zoom to the city and upgrade the two galleons that we left in there in 1170ad (provided they had have moves left at the end of 1170ad). In 1180ad, they will be available for movement again, with 13 movement points. I think the army can get from Ulundi to Leipzig and load up in a single turn? So the transports head east taking the army and any other units you like from that area - maybe the other army which is currently on a ship near Berlin? Anyway, they make it to Carthaginian shores in 1200ad.
So using the forces from the Zulu campaign as a reference, how many other transports can get to Carthage by 1200ad? If they start heading there this turn, almost every transport we have can probably make it! That's excessive. I would try to get two more fully loaded transports down there; 6 cavs from France (while the other 5 investigate the forts), and 3 or 4 decent units from Constan supported by more Att:6 veterans from the Persian continent.
So using the forces from the Zulu campaign as a reference, how many other transports can get to Carthage by 1200ad? If they start heading there this turn, almost every transport we have can probably make it! That's excessive. I would try to get two more fully loaded transports down there; 6 cavs from France (while the other 5 investigate the forts), and 3 or 4 decent units from Constan supported by more Att:6 veterans from the Persian continent.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Getting units from France to Carthage is even easier. The key is of course to get some transports into Thebes in advance...
We could use ship chaining at both ends of this route to get to land troops in Carthage in 1180ad, but they would be too few in number. Best to wait for the army/armies to make it over from Zululand.
We could use ship chaining at both ends of this route to get to land troops in Carthage in 1180ad, but they would be too few in number. Best to wait for the army/armies to make it over from Zululand.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Hey now, that makes me think: can we land all four transportloads in 1190ad, by having some transports from the Persian sea come down to meet the transports sailing east from Zululand? Do we have enough ships to do this:
So that's two empty transports leaving the Persian sea along the red route in 1170ad - they must start no further northeast than Persep. They are arrive at the point west of Carthage in 1180ad, ready to take the units from the incoming transports in 1190ad, and ship them straight into Carthage the same turn. Meanwhile, we need to find some more transports that can depart from Teo or Persep in 1180ad. They just sail straight down to Carthage, carrying troops from Constan and the Azjap towns, and/or the six cavalries from France, who can be active on the Persian continent in 1180ad by using the two transports up there in a ship chain (load one up this turn while leaving the other half way between France and Hattusas).
Oof, easy isn't it?
Edit: "they must start no further northeast than Persep"... actually they must start at least one tile southwest of Persep. The diagram is correct on this.
"transports that can depart from Teo or Persep in 1180ad." And the text is correct on this, not the diagram, which shows the orange line starting one tile northwest of Teo.
So that's two empty transports leaving the Persian sea along the red route in 1170ad - they must start no further northeast than Persep. They are arrive at the point west of Carthage in 1180ad, ready to take the units from the incoming transports in 1190ad, and ship them straight into Carthage the same turn. Meanwhile, we need to find some more transports that can depart from Teo or Persep in 1180ad. They just sail straight down to Carthage, carrying troops from Constan and the Azjap towns, and/or the six cavalries from France, who can be active on the Persian continent in 1180ad by using the two transports up there in a ship chain (load one up this turn while leaving the other half way between France and Hattusas).
Oof, easy isn't it?
Edit: "they must start no further northeast than Persep"... actually they must start at least one tile southwest of Persep. The diagram is correct on this.
"transports that can depart from Teo or Persep in 1180ad." And the text is correct on this, not the diagram, which shows the orange line starting one tile northwest of Teo.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
5th post in a row! I'll stop spamming now. 
Thanks for all the Tips, they are very much appreciated.
I checked all distances and this is what I have to report:
Zululand:
We can ship both armies and 3 Arty. That would leave 1 City without garrision.
Mainland:
If we want to land in 1190AD we can get 1 or 2 additional transports from the mainland to Carthage. Without leaving cities empty or drafting we could send 8 from a collection of 4 Arty 3 Cav 2 Inf. I suggest sending 3 C 1 I 2A.
France:
Sorry I moved there first and the shipchain is broken. So I will just make sure that all the 11 Cavs are in Position to attack Vikings in the appropriate turn.
So Overall we have in Carthago:
1 Army 1Cav 3AC
1 Army 2Kn 1AC
5 Arty
1 Inf
3 Cav
Sounds enough for me, but I haven't played a warmongering turnset in a while.
We could second a half full transport from the core too, but I rather use that one to set up a potent chipchain to Scandinavia from Core and from Carthage.
That leaves one point unaccounted for. The Army in the transport of Berlin. It can't reach Carthage in time, because the galleon is on the wrong side of that shallow east of berlin. So I suggest we use it to garrison berlin until I can get the last unit from england over, and then ship it to Bergen from the south once we upgraded some of the galleons to transports. It can land in Bergen in 1230 AD fully healed so it might still be useful.
@PB Thanks again for all the help also in the COTM. I am really learning some things here. I hope you don't mind, that it drags a bit, but I rather make it right then fast.
I checked all distances and this is what I have to report:
Zululand:
We can ship both armies and 3 Arty. That would leave 1 City without garrision.
Mainland:
If we want to land in 1190AD we can get 1 or 2 additional transports from the mainland to Carthage. Without leaving cities empty or drafting we could send 8 from a collection of 4 Arty 3 Cav 2 Inf. I suggest sending 3 C 1 I 2A.
France:
Sorry I moved there first and the shipchain is broken. So I will just make sure that all the 11 Cavs are in Position to attack Vikings in the appropriate turn.
So Overall we have in Carthago:
1 Army 1Cav 3AC
1 Army 2Kn 1AC
5 Arty
1 Inf
3 Cav
Sounds enough for me, but I haven't played a warmongering turnset in a while.
We could second a half full transport from the core too, but I rather use that one to set up a potent chipchain to Scandinavia from Core and from Carthage.
That leaves one point unaccounted for. The Army in the transport of Berlin. It can't reach Carthage in time, because the galleon is on the wrong side of that shallow east of berlin. So I suggest we use it to garrison berlin until I can get the last unit from england over, and then ship it to Bergen from the south once we upgraded some of the galleons to transports. It can land in Bergen in 1230 AD fully healed so it might still be useful.
@PB Thanks again for all the help also in the COTM. I am really learning some things here. I hope you don't mind, that it drags a bit, but I rather make it right then fast.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
I think I meant that the army in the galleon should load onto one of the transports coming out of Leipzig (by ship-chaining down), while the army in Berlin stays put to keep an eye on Zululand/Germany. Because there is no barracks in Berlin, that army won't heal much over the next interturn. Indeed it may be worth sending it to Zimbabwe this turn.
So coming from Zululand would be:
1 army; 2 elite knights, 1 vet AC
1 army; 1 elite knight, 2 elite ACs; will my healing-in-transit theory be supported?
1 cav, 1 inf.
I would support that with something like 6 cavs and 6 arts, drawn from Constan and the Persian continent. After all, if we are dowing Carthage in 1190ad, we have a whole extra turn to heal the survivors and get them shipped back for the next war.
Your troop numbers looked a little thin to me, although when I put them through Offa it gave a 99.4% chance of taking Carthage. Mind you, it doesn't handle armies, so I don't know how we really stack up. And of course we need to take Utica as well as Carthage.
Don't worry too much about the undefended towns thing. It's a risk, but not a big one. And we can probably afford to draft some conscripts to fill the gaps.
Remember that the two armies can each take an extra unit. Perhaps it is worth first attacking once with all units, and then loading the healthiest surviving cavs into the armies? This should give the armies enough health to blitz, without reducing the total number of attacks we can make.
Oh, here's a little micromanagement prediction: the pollution next to Memphis will clear over the interturn. Get a citizen onto it now, set the other specialists to 4*police + 1*engineer, and the docks should finish this interturn. Switch another cop to engineer if you want to be extra sure.
And good luck!
P.S. if the transports near France aren't doing anything else, you could drop the explorer into Scandinavia. He can have a look at their troop deployment, and save a spot for us to land on the mountain. We would just disband him before the dow so there is no ROP rape (assuming he can't find a clear route into France or America).
So coming from Zululand would be:
1 army; 2 elite knights, 1 vet AC
1 army; 1 elite knight, 2 elite ACs; will my healing-in-transit theory be supported?
1 cav, 1 inf.
I would support that with something like 6 cavs and 6 arts, drawn from Constan and the Persian continent. After all, if we are dowing Carthage in 1190ad, we have a whole extra turn to heal the survivors and get them shipped back for the next war.
Your troop numbers looked a little thin to me, although when I put them through Offa it gave a 99.4% chance of taking Carthage. Mind you, it doesn't handle armies, so I don't know how we really stack up. And of course we need to take Utica as well as Carthage.
Don't worry too much about the undefended towns thing. It's a risk, but not a big one. And we can probably afford to draft some conscripts to fill the gaps.
Remember that the two armies can each take an extra unit. Perhaps it is worth first attacking once with all units, and then loading the healthiest surviving cavs into the armies? This should give the armies enough health to blitz, without reducing the total number of attacks we can make.
Oh, here's a little micromanagement prediction: the pollution next to Memphis will clear over the interturn. Get a citizen onto it now, set the other specialists to 4*police + 1*engineer, and the docks should finish this interturn. Switch another cop to engineer if you want to be extra sure.
And good luck!
P.S. if the transports near France aren't doing anything else, you could drop the explorer into Scandinavia. He can have a look at their troop deployment, and save a spot for us to land on the mountain. We would just disband him before the dow so there is no ROP rape (assuming he can't find a clear route into France or America).
I am just worried about Sumeria getting wind of it again, and then declaring war, denying us of a trading partner and putting our english town in big problems.
Ok I have started to organize everything.
There will be 4 boatloads of units (2 Armies, 6 A, 8 C, 2 I) in Carthage by 1290 AD.
But because of the speed, the Armies will be transfered between ships every turn. So my guess iss, that they won't heal then. But I will know this after this interturn.
I will also try to set up shipchains to Viking in 5 turns as follows:
2 loads from Carthage to Egypt
1 Load from Byzanz to Persia
3 loads from Mongol to Viking
I assume getting enough ships in position fro 3 loads from mongol to viking depends on the chance that I can use the two transports currently ferrying the Cavs. So when the Cavs can be positioned to attack Bergen, then we will have 3 loads shipping over, Giving 29 units. Otherwise we will have to cope with just 24. At least this is when I can get the tranporst from wehre they will be stuck carrying troops to Carthage in 3 turns back to Hattusa.
When I replace shipped out units I draft from the most corrupt places don't I?
There will be 4 boatloads of units (2 Armies, 6 A, 8 C, 2 I) in Carthage by 1290 AD.
But because of the speed, the Armies will be transfered between ships every turn. So my guess iss, that they won't heal then. But I will know this after this interturn.
I will also try to set up shipchains to Viking in 5 turns as follows:
2 loads from Carthage to Egypt
1 Load from Byzanz to Persia
3 loads from Mongol to Viking
I assume getting enough ships in position fro 3 loads from mongol to viking depends on the chance that I can use the two transports currently ferrying the Cavs. So when the Cavs can be positioned to attack Bergen, then we will have 3 loads shipping over, Giving 29 units. Otherwise we will have to cope with just 24. At least this is when I can get the tranporst from wehre they will be stuck carrying troops to Carthage in 3 turns back to Hattusa.
When I replace shipped out units I draft from the most corrupt places don't I?
PaperBeetle
Emperor
True, Sumeria still look they might "accidentally" dow at any moment. But then we aren't planning on taking any units out of England.
If you are particularly worried about leaving a Zulu town empty, there is a stack of artillery on that island which probably has no further role in this game; they could be disbanded to build a cav.
If you are particularly worried about leaving a Zulu town empty, there is a stack of artillery on that island which probably has no further role in this game; they could be disbanded to build a cav.
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Good point. But we still don't have any better units coming from that direction . If you feel you need more units for that war, we still have a spare turn in our plans. Indeed our whole endeavour here is just to save a turn or two on our win date.
So even if it all fails miserably, that's probably not too important.Again, I hadn't really done the maths on this part of the plan. But we might not need to ship all the way out of Hattusas; if we have turns to spare, we could just load up from the coast a bit nearer to Scandinavia.Kulko said:
It probably doesn't matter; each draft will cost us one scientist. In theory, the ideal place to draft from is a town which has used most of its food surplus to feed scientists (e.g. it now has 20 food in the box, at +2fpt); such a town would not grow again, but if we draft from it then we increase the food surplus so it might grow again.Kulko said:
