SGOTM 12 - Smurkz

[ControlFreak]

Yes, please do the pillaging in Orleans.

Your comment about American trade deal made me have second thoughts. We would need to test this before we tried it. I would hate to not be able to make MA's for the rest of the game. If no time for testing, don't make the deal I mentioned.

I am a little uncomfortable with your plan to move all reinforcements directly to Paris. CB saw a large stack of crusaders and longbows near Bergen. If they were headed to Orleans (a good bet since Orleans should now have France's #1 priority to recapture) then they are due to arrive soon. If for some reason we don't take Paris, then we also loose Orleans with all the units pulled out of it by ships.

By completing the pillaging of the roads, we can see anything approaching Orleans before its to late. Also, with the capture of Oreleans, it's a two tile march to the wool hill near Paris. If we walk there, we will always be closer to Orleans than the French units. I know we're going to suffer some losses, but we would on the turn of landing as well.

I'm OK if you use the caravels the way you intended, but would rather walk the Orleans troops just so we keep visibility of the threats heading towards Orleans.

Regarding next target, I think the Incan's are a good bet because our supply line already heads in that direction. The incan war would be best served by an MA with the Mayans followed by a strike at the Incan iron city. The Mayan may lose a town to the Incan in this process, but we would be able to capture it later.

 

[CommandoBob]

I am a little uncomfortable with your plan to move all reinforcements directly to Paris. CB saw a large stack of crusaders and longbows near Bergen. If they were headed to Orleans (a good bet since Orleans should now have France's #1 priority to recapture) then they are due to arrive soon.

270 AD New York Located

The survivors of the New York assualt were 2 vCrusaders, 1 eMace and 4 vPikes.
On the 280 AD IBT they moved to the old French Iron Colony south of Bergen.
On this IBT they will move 1 N onto another mountain, which is not roaded.
On 300 AD IBT they'll move north again, onto a roaded mountain.
On 310 AD IBT they'll move through Bergen to the eastern fort.
On 320 AD IBT they'll move to the hill 2SW of Paris.
On 330 AD IBT they'll move to the roaded plains NW of Paris.
On 340 AD IBT they'll be able to move into Paris and beyond.
I don't think they will be a factor when we attack Orleans. Paris, yes; Orleans no.

If this is correct they would in the fort SW of Paris and move to the hill 2SW of Paris on this IBT. This still leaves them two turns from Paris. This IBT Orleans should be safe and next IBT also, unless the roads have been repaired, which seems unlikely. Either way, roading the two plains or through the hill, would take 6WT. The most that could have been roaded is the tile N of the French horses, which is still two turns from the eastern French fort.

So, it looks like we have the rest of this and two more turns before the Crusaders could show up. We should see them in 350 AD.

zyxy's Shipping Schedule and Crusader Movements

• 320 AD (this turn) no ship movement / Crusaders at east fort
• 330 AD Red moves / 2SW of Paris
• 340 AD Orange moves / Crusaders outside Paris
• 350 AD Green moves / Crusaders visible, may attack on the IBT before we see them
• 360 AD Yellow moves / Crusaders killed
• 370 AD Blue moves
• 380 AD Purple moves (and Invasion forces land)

However, in this time Paris will produce one and maybe two Crusaders naturally.

 

[zyxy]

CB, you're right about the ship loading/unloading.

You're not entirely right about the timing of the shipping schedule: the boats start to move this turn.

Ok, I'll prepare for an attack on Inca.

CF, I understand your concerns about Orleans. But the risk is limited to 1 turn only (namely turn 5: troops at Orleans board ship on turn 4, unload on turn 5, and attack Paris on turn 6), and the fast movers will be around to take care of any intruders. But we'll see how it develops.

I'll play a few turns tonight.

 

[CommandoBob]

You're not entirely right about the timing of the shipping schedule: the boats start to move this turn.

That's right! They moved and unloaded last turn. Somehow I thought they had done that this turn.

Nevermind.

 

[ControlFreak]

CF, I understand your concerns about Orleans. But the risk is limited to 1 turn only (namely turn 5: troops at Orleans board ship on turn 4, unload on turn 5, and attack Paris on turn 6), and the fast movers will be around to take care of any intruders. But we'll see how it develops.

I'm always more conservative than you in attacking. You're a great player so I know you will do what makes sense. I'm just asking for a backup plan in case Paris does not fall. And also, the elimination of Paris does not evaporate all the enemy troops as the taking of Teno did.

My inlaws are in town this weekend, so take your time playing. I will at best be able to read posts over the weekend and will definitely not be able to plan my turnset and play until Monday at the earliest. Feel free to play more than 10 if need since we only have 3 players at the moment.

Good Luck!

 

[zyxy]

Turn 0, 320 AD: lose three MDI to kill the 2 pikes and 1 crusader . But then my luck changes as our elite knight charges a longbow and:

Question is: do we keep him for the FP, or use him for an army? Well, I don't need to answer that right away, so for the moment Belisarius hides under a stack of MDI. Our ACs and the remaining knight move to pillage the approaches to Orleans.

Some people rightly voiced concerns about entering Spanish territory. So here's an alternative schedule that takes just as long but avoids the Spanish lands altogether.

Because of my losses at Orleans I can send an empty ship to block Paris' harbor. Orleans sells the market for 25 gold. If I sell the harbor then we'll lose the Wool supplies, so I don't do that. The roads to Paris have been cut, so even if Orleans flips back, France cannot benefit from the harbor. I set the governor to emphasize production in all our cities.
lux 0%, sci 100%, gunpowder now in 4. Move horseman into FS, spear from KZ towards Ozzy as MP's. Hire scientists in Ozzy and Theo, fire them in Oporto and Lisbon. Change the caravel in Oporto to lib. The cow will be mined this turn, and with 12% waste Theo should get just enough shields to do a caravel in 2 turns. The four workers at KZ start clearing the marsh, KZ is set to grow in 2 with worker in 2.

Trades:
Sell spices to Babylon for 6 gpt.
Sell spices to Hittites for 3 gpt.
Sell ivory to Carthage for 2 gpt.

Gunpowder in 4, +24 gpt, treasury 572.

IT: A French Knight from Paris kills our AC, is redlined, and then promotes. It is covered by another knight, a pike and a longbow.

The Maya are going south instead of towards Spain?? Our people want the FP.
StF mace -> mace. GB pike -> worker.

Turn 1, 330 AD: France is still building Cops and we didn't get a restart message. That's a good sign I guess. Paris is disconnected from the rest of France (I hope), and their iron is still disconnected (I hope), so any iron France is trading for is not being used, and the troops we have to deal with are returning from the front - hopefully this is a finite number . EDIT: except that Paris and Bergen both have a harbor, of course - so we are getting their new trainees as well...

I lose 2 MDI against the evil French pike , but kill the knight pair, the pike and longbow at no further losses. At this rate we'll need many more units from the homeland to take Paris. Not only are we losing troops, but we are running out of healthy ones: one healthy AC is all we have right now (but two more MDI next turn). I am sending one more caravel back to Oporto.
Spear enters Ozzy, Ozzy fires scientist. Three workers wait in Theo for the caravel built next turn.

Sell ivory to Persia for 4 gpt.
Sell ivory to Russia for 6 gpt.
Sell spices to Arabia for 4 gpt.

We're the world's dope peddler .

I'll continue tomorrow probably. I think we need to bring more units from the mainland, one or maybe even two extra boatloads. Each load roughly delays the attack by 1 turn I think (not sure, didn't do the logistics).
The other thing to decide would be what to do with the MGL. I think preserving him for an FP would be good. We don't have any elites that could score another GL atm. Arny would be cool too, but we only have two knights to fill it with. And they're sort of... wounded.

Save is attached for your pleasure.

 

[Niklas]

FP definitely. It will simply be too powerful to pass up on.

 

[CommandoBob]

The French seem to far tougher than I expected. Ouch!

On the MGL, we need a barracks if we want to convert him to an Army, correct? Orleans doesn't have a barracks.

FP was to be in Paris, IIRC.

Paris has 2 Knights? I thought they would have come out earlier on my turns. They could have certainly done more damage and killed more units then. Or maybe the MGL draws them?

 

[ControlFreak]

What if we build FP locally (StF?) and then palace in Paris when we capture it. I know the FP doesn't work like in PTW, but the palace would prevent flips and with the few towns we do have, I think the existing ones wouldn't lose out on corruption that badly. The palace would prevent Paris from flipping while France is eliminated.

Knights from France were probably fighting vikings and out of sight on their travels back to Paris.

A ship chain would make sure that we get units from Oporto to Orleans as fast as possible. We have a steady stream being supplied from the main area.

 

[Niklas]

From CAII, palace in Orleans and FP in StF means 32/23% waste in FS without/with court. 28/19 in Theo, 43/29 in Ozzy, 56/35 in KZ and ~25% in the Portuguese towns. The other way around gives 10% waste in Orleans, 11/6 in Theo, 15/10 in Ozzy, 22/14 in StF, 29/18 in KZ, 15 in StW and 29-37 in the Portuguese towns. Considering our core towns are that much more developed, FS in particular, I would argue against an FP at home and palace in Paris. It's not a clear cut situation though, I can see the arguments for going the other way around.

/goes back to physio

 

[zyxy]

@CF: The disadvantage of palace move would be that our old core will become corrupt, at least after we start conquering France. The advantage would be that Paris (or Orleans) doesn't flip, as you say. I am not sure what's best, probably FP in Paris.

Turnlog, part 2

Turn 1, 330 AD (cont): hit enter.

IT: French caravel heads east from France - towards us? French galley lands a longbow near Orleans. The Maya keep retreating back home .
FS MDI -> MDI. Theo caravel -> rax.

Turn 2, 340 AD: Paris still doing Cops! The new caravel is named Ruby Smurkz. It transports three slaves towards Indian Island. Our AC kills the French longbow. Pillager2 blocks the French harbor and spots the French troops underway:

I though I set the governor to emphasize production everywhere, but apparently not. At KZ it is set to emphasize food and commerce , so we didn't get the worker last turn . I again instruct the governors, and check they obey my orders this time.

IT: French Caravel appears at Orleans. A pike-crusader pair nears Orleans. The Spanish land a knight on Indian Island. KZ worker -> uni. And the inevitable:

Fortunately no troops inside. Oporto riots, I scroll ahead to prevent further trouble.

Turn 3, 350 AD: France no longer has access to iron:

But she still gets pikes in Orleans?? Not fair!! We kill both pikes, losing 1 MDI.

I don't have enough healthy units present to take out the pike/crusader pair, so I retreat form the border. Our MDI kills the Spanish knight. I switch Oporto to treb - we need some arty to improve our combat odds.

Sell horses to Babylon for 9 gpt.
sci 90%, gunpowder still in 1.

IT: French land a pike-MDI pair. Two trebs bomb our caravel blocking Paris. Maya keep going home, other Maya go north. Their goal seems to be to clog our roads...

We have saltpeter near Ozzy.
FS MDI -> MDI. GB worker -> worker. Oporto treb -> treb. Ozzy MDI -> MDI. Something ends up in the wrong place:

Fortunately the French just discovered Music and switch to Bachs in Paris .

Turn 4, 360 AD: Lose 2 MDI to kill the MDI-pike pair. We need better kill rates, I cannot even replace what we lose at Orleans. I don't have enough units to kill the pike-crusader pair, maybe next turn. I think we need to forget about taking Paris for the moment, and try to build up a treb force to help the combat odds. Maybe even go for cavs.

WW has increased and I am also having a lot of "cruel oppression" trouble. lux to 10%, but we still need some entertainment. Switch Theo to MDI, I need a few cheap MP's.

Could sell Wool to Russia, Babylon or Greece for a few gpt, but I think it's not worth it - Orleans will flip all the time.

Time for a break. I will continue later today or tomorrow.

 

[Niklas]

Only visible salpeter on French island is south of Washington. So no Musketeers any time soon at least.

 

[zyxy]

@Niklas: indeed, that's a relief. Should we gift Gunpowder to America so that she can build muskets?

Turnlog, part 3

Turn 4, 360 AD (cont): change orders for one of the workers at KZ. I decide to increase the lux tax to 20%, which relieves a few MDI on MP duty, switch Theo back to rax :crazyeyes:, and MM a bit.

IT: French are sending more pikes, spears and a crusader our way. Their trebs miss our caravel. Celts run around on their own island - can they not hop on a ship and come to help us? Maya keep running back and forth .
StF MDI -> MDI and produces AC. Lisbon MDI -> MDI.
Here we go again:

No units were lost. Theo riots, and once again I make the round to prevent further mishaps. It seems that the only towns that come after Orleans in the cycle are Oporto, Ozzy and Theo, so these towns need an extra happy face at all times.

Turn 5, 370 AD: At the cost of one MDI we kill two spears and retake Orleans:

Also kill one crusader.

IT: Lincoln cancels our silk deal, and we cannot extend it because he doesn't have spare silks anymore... I cycle through our cities but apparently the loss of lux doesn't change anything in happiness. Must be the buggy happiness calculation that doesn't register "surplus" happy faces. Some foreign affairs:

The Dutch cancel our gpt for ivory deal (we lose 6 gpt).
Now suddenly we do get unhappiness... Lisbon riots and I scroll ahead to prevent further mishap. Getting annoyed at this interface.
FS MDI -> MDI. Order restored in Theo.

Turn 6, 380 AD: Odds get ugly as I lose 5 MDI to kill 2 pikes, 1 spear and 1 crusader.

IT: French move a stack of 1 pike, 1 spear and 2 trebs our way. That's better! Some Maya are moving south, others north. Where are they going? Inca cancel our ivory deal (we lose 7 gpt). KZ treb -> treb. GB worker -> worker. Arabs start Bachs.

Turn 7, 390 AD: a quiet turn. Troops move, workers work.

Time for a break again. I will continue tomorrow. Things are starting to look a bit better - we see fewer French units, and we might capture some trebs next turn. With a few of these rock throwers we might be able to keep our units alive and build up a strike force for Paris.

 

[CommandoBob]

Capital Jump
The idea of making Paris is certainly appealing since we don't have to worry about the city flipping back to France. But given zyxy's history with Orleans, and the fact the our Military Advisor rates us as Strong compared to France, and the fact the we have better units than France, I'm inclined to just leave some troops around Paris to re-liberate it if it ever flipped back to France.

The other goody from Paris-as-capital is that it's 30 sheilds per turn that are now working for our benefit. But given the corruption rates Niklas mentioned, even here I think we lose overall. We might be able to boost Paris to 35 spt and have 2 turn Knights, but we won't be able to have it make 1 turn Maces at 40 spt, which would be more useful than 2 turn Knights. And our current unit production takes a huge hit and slows down greatly.

Plus, once Paris is ours we get Crusaders every 5 turns until Steam Power. And, just a reminder, we only get Ancient Cavalry until Metallurgy.

I think that having Paris as our capital just slows down the conquest of France.

Beyond France
I think before we take out the Incas we should complete the destruction of the Vikings and the Yanks. American culture is 2406 compared to ours at 2647 and the Vikings of 842. Their growth is 19 per turn, our is 61 per turn and the Vikings is 46 per turn. Removing them now makes our former French cities more secure. And makes that land mass totally ours.

World Culture
We have a strong growing culture, 61 cpt, tied at 6th fastest of the 22 remaining civs. Greece is tops at 144, France only 47. In total culture we are in the middle of the pack: tied for 11th place with 2647. France is tops at 8302.

Largest Civs
Three civs now have four cities: Korea, Babylon, Russia. Korea's culture is 2286 and did not grow last turn. Babylon is at 2767 and +82; Russia is 3128 and +45. Incas are also at 3128 and +45, but have only 3 cities. No recommended course of action on this information. Just one more thing to be considered.

 

[ControlFreak]

FP
I don't have time to check what those corruption numbers mean to each of the cities, but for example, FS makes a max of 25spt, but realisitically we have it set to 20spt because of cost of builds. If the corruption change loses us 3spt, who cares, because we don't use those 3 either. The same arguement could be made for beakers. If it takes us 7 turns to research, but with corruption it's still going to take 7 turns because we've been overrunning the 7th turn by more beakers than the corruption will cost us, then who cares.

The problem with planning to recapture Paris every time it flips is that we can not rush the FP until there's no more chance of flip. So as I see it, we delay FP build by {turns to take Paris + turns to eliminate France}. The leader sits around this whole time preventing future leaders from appearing. If we build FP right away locally and rush palace in Paris then we delay FP by {turns to build FP}. And have a big reduction of corruption thanks to the FP while we wait to capture Paris. The Leader usage is delayed by {turns to take Paris}. Plus we'll never lose a unit trying to retake Paris.

Resources
France must have connected their iron colony again. With the blockade to Paris it looks like they don't own iron (in paris) but Orleans gets the iron via Bergen's harbor. We need to blockade Orleans harbor so if it flips, it only gets a spear. Also, CB only check French native saltpeter. We need to make sure that they can not buy it from anyone. Even one musketteer would be horrible to face.

Next Target
I think zyxy has already redirected all troops towards Orleans for a buildup against Paris. Once we take paris, there will be plenty of troops to take Frances other two towns as well as America and Scandinavia. That's the point where we start preparing to take the Incas down.

 

[Niklas]

France can't trade for any resources while their capitol is blockaded. So as long as we blockade Paris, only local salpeter will be an issue.

With a court, 25 shields raw in FS would mean 19 shields net. I think the { turns to eliminate France } after Paris is taken will be in the order of 5-10 turns, not a big deal IMO. We probably won't have that many elites around at any rate.

 

[ControlFreak]

(I'm just playing devil's advocate long enough to make sure that Palace in Paris isn't the right choice.)

France can't trade for any resources while their capitol is blockaded. So as long as we blockade Paris, only local salpeter will be an issue.

Don't forget that when we take Paris, their capitol will go somewhere else. We need to blockade Bergen also.

 

[zyxy]

Turn 7, 390 AD (cont): hit enter.

IT: French Trebs bomb our pike to no effect. StW uni -> treb. FS MDI -> MDI. Oporto treb -> lib. Ozzy MDI -> MDI. Theo MDI -> rax.

Turn 8, 400 AD: Our treb takes 1 hp off the French pike and an MDI dispatches him, promoting to elite in the process! We then lose a knight and an AC trying to take out a spear . But we now have three trebs near Orleans, and some hope to improve our combat odds.
Switch KZ to uni.
Navigation is out there, and could be useful to us. So

Sell Education to Ragnar for 11 gpt + 59 and their WM.
Sell Music to Babylon for 2 gpt + 60 and their WM.

IT: silence on the French front . StF MDI -> MDI. GB worker -> worker

Turn 9, 410 AD: quiet turn. I think that Orleans is sufficiently defended now, so I'll start building up a force to take Paris.

IT: Crusader and some French ships approach Orleans. Roman galley heads for Indian Island. StF produces AC, FS MDI -> MDI. Arabs start Magellan.

Turn 10, 420 AD: Three trebs score two hits on the French crusader, an AC kills him flawlessly. Unload some more units. We now have 4 trebs, 3 ACs, 1 pike, 12 MDI and 1 MGL near Orleans. Some need to heal, but we're getting close to attack strength.

We are reduced to 3 playing members only, and CF is unavailable this weekend. So I'll play on a bit.

IT: French ships are just sailing past?? Romans land two horsemen. Maya keep heading north. StW treb -> treb. GB worker -> worker. A vulcanoe has erupted near New York.

Turn 11, 430 AD: another quiet turn. We dispatch the horsemen without losses.

I sell Music to Scandinavia for worker + 6 gold + WM.

IT: France shows up with a longbow. A French worker appears W of Paris, perhaps trying to reconnect?

FS MDI -> Knight. Ozzy MDI -> MDI. Theo rax -> MDI.

Turn 12, 440 AD: dispatch the longbow at no losses.

IT: another longbow. StF MDI -> MDI. Here we go again - well, this time we had it for 7 turns:

No units lost of course. Maya are getting iron from somewhere, they have pikes.

Turn 13, 450 AD: Our 4 trebs miss the spears, but apparently eat up enough bad rolls: two MDI beat two spears without losses, and:

Unfortunately the town lost its harbor. So we no longer get Wool. An AC takes care of the longbow, but redlines in the process . Move a load of units into Orleans in the hope of pacifying it. France is indeed reconnecting horses to Bergen. But we will attack Paris in a few turns, so it will not help them much . We will load up ships next turn and attack two turns later.

(save)

I sell Edu to Carthage for 1 gpt + 50 + WM.
I sell Astro to Hittites for 6 gpt + 32 + WM.

IT: French show up with their traditional longbow, and land another. Romans land a horse and legionary in a difficult location . We may have to sign peace. Mayans keep heading north...
StW treb -> treb. GB worker -> worker. Orleans quells 2 resisters and goes in disorder. Babs and French start Magellan (in Paris).

Turn 14, 460 AD: Only one of our units can reach the two Roman ones in time, and we could lose GB next turn. So our long feud comes to an end:

Two ACs dispatch the French longbows, but one redlines, the other yellowlines. A stack of 11 MDI, 4 trebs and a pike head for Paris. Another 9 units will arrive on ship. Hopefully it's enough. Fast and damaged units stay near Orleans in case it flips back.

I have to increase lux tax to 40% - we cannot afford entertainers in many core cities, because they would starve. Sci can go down to 50%, chemistry still in 1.

IT: Our stack is attack by a longbow and a crusader and we lose two MDI. Oddly enough the pike doesn't defend . Maya finally turn back, the two Romans treat our land is if it is theirs.

StF produces AC. Lisbon MDI -> MDI. KZ uni -> court. FS knight -> court. Orleans starves and resistance ends here. French restart Magellans in Paris.

Turn 15, 470 AD: we dispatch the crusader and longbow. Land 7 MDI and 2 trebs outside Paris, and march 8 MDI, 1 pike and 2 trebs on the hill N of Paris. A knight stays in reserve. Orleans is set to starve. Tell the Romans to remove themselves. Their horse somehow disappeared, perhaps he didn't get his pay?
Our wines colony is now within our borders. So the horse goes to FS and upgrades to Knight.

I hope that one of the fastresearching AI will research Metallurgy for me. So
I sell Chemistry to Korea for worker + 18 gold + WM.
I sell Chemistry to Russia for PP + WM.
I sell Chemistry to Babylon for 1 gold + WM.
I sell Chemistry to Greece for 37 gold + WM.
I sell Chemistry to Arabia for 7 gold + WM.

IT: our knight defeats a French longbow. Romans have the guts to fortify in our lands. Orleans starves down to size 1. Ozzy MDI -> MDI. Theo MDI -> MDI. France restart Magellan.

Turn 16, 480 AD: 4 trebs knock 2 hp off pikes. In the first 10 battles I kill 2 pikes, damage 7 (mostly 1 hp, sometimes 2), and lose 8 MDI. There is still an undamaged pike showing, so there must be at least 10 pikes in Paris, and we have only 7 attackers left. I am going to pause here for discussion, battle odds are terrible, and we're not making any progress. After discussion, I'll finish the turn and then hand off to the next player.

I think we need to:
- research to cavs. Should we switch?
- stay at war with France? If we don't, then France can rebuild, Orleans will flip back, and all was for nothing. If we do, we'll have war weariness. I think we need to stay at war, but stay on the defensive. Starve Paris down before attacking. Blocking Paris' tiles reduces French income which would help too. Muskets would stand a chance, MDI don't. Pike might even be better, because they are cheaper.
- perhaps attack someone else (Maya?) in the meantime to improve our economy. Attacking France is rather hopeless at this stage.
- retake the French iron. A few muskets might hold out. Otherwise we'll have to go for rifles, but that won't make things a lot easier.

Romans are at move or declare. I am inclined to call their bluff.

 

[ControlFreak]

Seems like you are in control of France's destiny if not Paris.

I think we should focus on Bergen and the ex American city. Taking those two and then covering the Paris tiles (don't do it yet) would make some of the pikes disappear from shortage of money. Then we can finish Paris off.

 

[CommandoBob]

I think we should focus on Bergen and the ex American city. Taking those two and then covering the Paris tiles (don't do it yet) would make some of the pikes disappear from shortage of money. Then we can finish Paris off.

Unit Support
We all get 10 units with free support, so if we take Bergen and New York, Paris can still have a lot of Pikes. And with the very different unit support model of Feudalism, we would be better off attacking when Paris is large. The odds don't change any, but the free support does.

IIRC, Paris at size 12 (if the only city of France) would have 11 units of free support. Paris at size 5 would have 18 units with free support.

If we take out the smaller cities first we are sure to face a Paris full of free support units. If we take out Paris first, the other two cities don't have the resources to take full advantage of the free support.

It will take a while, but I tend to favor a Trebuchet build up and bombardment of Paris, followed by an assault by Maces and Mounted Units.