SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[Abegweit]

Maybe I am just too dumb, but why didn't we consider to just raze Orleans. This city was of use and will be of not much use. Nobody can build settlers, so who cares about flips.

Unit support. City count towards the FP. And, as it is so close to Paris, it will be quite productive for while. Eventually, as we grab more and more cities, it will become more and more corrupt. But for a while after the FP is built, it will be useful.

And with all that food, it will be one of our best science farms.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Interesting. Egypt looks very nice.

I will look in closer detail tonight. Interesting to see in the graphs that we are still doing fine, even without Paris.

 

[Andronicus]

I suggest we should consider instigating some wars ASAP (I think immediately)

If we can reduce the number of AI on each of the major continents it will help the tech cost slightly and hopefully give us a few research partners (aiming to get at least 3 scientific AIs up to 6 cities) eg Persia, Ottomen and Russia or Greece
If we gift / trade monarchy to our intended victims this should get them wonder building (maybe even Theology as well?).
As soon as start wonder, dow and ally

I think we should dow the following
1) India, ally Portugal - main goal being to get Delhi, perhaps could later consider getting Korean control of area to north (ie Spain and Portugal)
2) Mayans, ally Incans - goal being to weaken both, later bring in Ottomen with aim of giving Mayan and Incan cities to Ottomen
3) Carthage, ally Chinese and Russians - main goal weaken Chinese
4) Arabs, ally Chinese and Greeks - again weakening Chinese so can later turn Russians and Greeks onto Chinese
5) Monguls, ally Hittites, Persians and Babs - goal to weaken Monguls and Hittites so Bab and Persians can expand. When peace treaty expires, need to remove Dutch as well

I think the 2 AI islands are too much of a lottery (ie Germany - Zulu and England - Sumeria), we may risk losing a scientific AI unless we have spare troops to support them.

What do we want to do with the islands with only 1 AI (ie Rome and Celts)?

Plan for post taking Paris - dow Vikes with Americans as allies? Then turn on Americans?

If we eliminate Carthage, Arabs, Chinese, Dutch, Hittites, Monguls, Mayans, Incans, Indians, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Vikings and Americans, the tech cost should come down significantly and we could get decent AI research help. Whilst this seems an awful lot of civs to eliminate, much would be done without us fighting and most cases it is only 2 cities requiring capture

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we should only make wars, there where we are planning to fight ourselves to reduce the resistance. There is a long game to come, and we will probably end up owning most of the cities anyway.

I do however support Persia, they chould conquer the dutch and hittites someday.
When we are researching up to speed, there will only be 1 tech in the future where we can count on the AI and give them time to research it. That is replacable parts. This is such a strong favorite that 1 or 2 AI researchers is all we need.

Are you sure research is gonna be cheaper when we elimite AI's ? I know nothing about that.

I think we should let rome and celts do for now. Not give them too much tech, let them be backwards and we'll take them last.

 

[Abegweit]

All of the AIs will be utterly useless researchers except for the few which got resource-rich locations. We already have conquered two of them, the Aztecs and the Egyptians. We also have our sights set on a third - the French. There really isn't much else out there.

As proof of their uselessness, consider Persia. The capital is producing, as I count it, 16g of which less than half will be put into research. Call it half to be generous. That's 8bpt or 12 with library. A mid to late ME tech will cost roughly 2500 beakers. Even with the AI discount, that's 125 turns for a tech. And Persepolis is better than most of the cities on the map! It doesn't really help much to give them more cities either, since just about everything else is even worse.

The purpose of the AI in this game is to give us small bits of money so that we can keep our research @100%. Aside from the free techs of the scientifics at the beginning of the next age, that's all.

Wacken is right. We will be lucky to get guns out of the AI. Chemistry is probably too much to ask for. More than that... dreamland.

Scientific civs:
Babylon
Byzantines
Germans
Greeks:
Koreans
Ottomans
Persians
Russians
Sumerians

 

[Abegweit]

Are you sure research is gonna be cheaper when we elimite AI's ? I know nothing about that.

He is right; research rates depend on the number of civs in the game. As he says, the effect is marginal. I'll look the formula up.

Edit: Found it. With simplifications to ignore Firaxis' love of integer arithmetic, the formula is:

MM*DM*(COST/100) *[1 - (N/(CL*1.75))]

MM: map modifier: standard = 240
DM: difficulty modifier. Diety = 6
COST: cost from the editor
N: number of civs you know who already know the tech
CL: civs left in play

Hmmm... quite obviously if no one knows the tech yet, it makes no difference now many civs are left (0/X = 0). OK. Forget that. It's not relevant to this game.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Nice, so we don't have to kill anyone.

Both Scandinavia and India have Iron and Feudalism.

However, we don't really have any "juicy" targets other than Delhi, Paris and, cities around Paris that will be usefull at least temporarily. The other cities are worth little to us. I think we should go for the targets we need most.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Tenochtitlan:
Using 1 forest and the hill, Teno can get to 14 uncorrupted spt at size 12.
For this to happen, we need 3 extra mines and a roaded forest.
We do not need to work any tiles currently unroaded.

Cut the forest(4t) that is being planted now (3t). Replant a forest on the same tile(9t) and mine the remaining 3 currently roaded and unmined tiles(18t)
That makes a total of 34 worker turns.

This can be done in 6 turns. That will also be exactly the time needed to finish the aquaduct with 1 forest cut. 6 workers can be joined and we have a 3 turn MDI factory starting 6 turns from now.

Kyoto
The forest cut for the library here isn't gonna work out in time. The forest being planted N,NE of Kyoto should not be cut. Kyoto can use it for production at max size.

If we max out the used tiles, it will get to 13 spt. That is no 3 turn MDI's. A courthouse could make it 3 turn MDI's. 2 MDI, it will take 24 turns after completion to win back the shields. We may want to build one here.

We could choose to complete the tile improvements needed for this, meanwhile build a courthouse and then do the worker join later, or we could be satisfied with 10 spt and make it that asap.

Courthouse:
It would cost about 111 worker turns to complete the work needed to be done. With 6 workers, that would take almost 20 turns. The courthouse would be done in about 22 turns. This would provide us another 3 turn MDI fact in 22 turns. science would not really be more than without courthouse since without courthouse, we would use some water tiles that produce more commerce. The science boost from population joining would of course be later.

No courthouse:
Using: hill, 2BG, 5minegrass, 1 forest, 1 sea, 1 fish and the lake, we get 10 spt after corruption. We are short: 5 mines(30t), 3 roads(8t), 1 forest(7t) for a total of 45 worker turns. With 6 workers, this can be done in 8 turns. If however you first finish the mine on the hill for Osaka, it could take some 11 turns for this to be completed. That is the moment Kyoto should expand its cultural border. It can now be a 4 turn MDI factory. I think we should choose this option rather than paying 12 extra turns to make it a 3 turn factory.

Teotihuacan:
Aquaduct in 8 turns. New citizens will use water. Production stays at 6spt.
We could build a barracks in 7 turns and then have it produce an MDI every 7 turns. It would take to turn 22 for the first MDI to come out and they would be produced slowly. We could just make thus our dromon producer. Dromons every 5 turns starting production after Aquaduct.

Osaka:
Oh well, someday.....

Our army:
8 MDI
1 eSword
4 AC
1 vWar
8 dromon
current units(14) with Vwar upgraded.

To be produced:
T2: C_MDI (1)
T4: C_MDI (2)
T5: K_AC (3)
T6: C_MDI (4)
T8: C_MDI (5)
T9: T_MDI (6)
T10: K_AC, C_MDI (8)
T12: C_MDI, T_MDI (10)
T14: C_MDI (11)
T15: K_AC, T_MDI, K_MDI (14)
T16: C_MDI (15)
T18: C_MDI, T_MDI (17)
T19: K_MDI (18)
T20: K_AC, C_MDI (20)
T21: T_MDI (21)
T22: C_MDI (22)
T23: K_MDI (23)
T24: C_MDI, T_MDI (25)
T25: K_AC (26)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

2 plans:

Paris then Scandinavia
T15: We send everything we have and the next 4 units we produce to Paris by any means of transport we can gather. This will count for a total of 18 to capture Paris in 15 turns. We now have a significant force and we should be able to quickly advance. an average of 14 will survive

T18 We take Orleans with the survivors from Paris. An average of 10 will survive

T23 We move our forces to Trontheim, 10 new units produced between T6 and T16 have also arived here as well. We now have 20 units present to take the Pike defended scandinavian capital. An average of 14 will survive. We now have 10 cities to get Paris online.

T27 We take Bergen.

After this, we have to get our forces from scandinavia to India. We may need to add some from our core. Paris can immeadiately build a university.

India then Paris
T10 We leave the 4 units at Orleans. We send the other 10 and the next 4 to be produced to India. These 14 units capture Delhi in 10 turns. 10 survive.

T15 Reenforced with 4 new units, we capture the second Indian city. 10 units survive again.

T24 With 6 new units produced before T15, and about 10 survivors from India, we attack Paris. It can immeadiately build an FP.

After this, we continue to conquer the Vikings with reeinforcements produced in our now powerfull Paris and we use the our home production for universities or for capturing science farms. (that is something to discuss later)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The next turnset is for Mark by the way.
So mark, let us hear something of you

 

[Andronicus]

All of the AIs will be utterly useless researchers except for the few which got resource-rich locations. We already have conquered two of them, the Aztecs and the Egyptians. We also have our sights set on a third - the French. There really isn't much else out there.

As proof of their uselessness, consider Persia. The capital is producing, as I count it, 16g of which less than half will be put into research. Call it half to be generous. That's 8bpt or 12 with library. A mid to late ME tech will cost roughly 2500 beakers. Even with the AI discount, that's 125 turns for a tech. And Persepolis is better than most of the cities on the map! It doesn't really help much to give them more cities either, since just about everything else is even worse.

The purpose of the AI in this game is to give us small bits of money so that we can keep our research @100%. Aside from the free techs of the scientifics at the beginning of the next age, that's all.

Wacken is right. We will be lucky to get guns out of the AI. Chemistry is probably too much to ask for. More than that... dreamland.

Scientific civs:
Babylon
Byzantines
Germans
Greeks:
Koreans
Ottomans
Persians
Russians
Sumerians

Yes you are right. I just find it hard to accept that a deity AI wont be able to research anything useful if allowed to develop 6 cities.
I guess it is being held back by feudalism (loss of commerce cf rep and higher unit support costs). Additionally a typical AI deity researcher would be much bigger than 6 cities.
Still, France was able to research guns in good time - if given other techs it probably would have been able to research chemistry before we had to go the bottom half of tech tree. Admittedly this included a super science city with wool on almost every tile and colossus to give added commerce - I dont see too many of these around. Hopefully someone other than France does research guns before we have to.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I feel rather confident that we will get guns from someone, most likely Persia. After that, we will get nothing out of them until Rep parts.

Lets look at it from the bright side:
a 6 city AI works about 70 tiles when we are halfway the IA. these tiles produce about 100 commerce. We cause them to burn their units so science will stay at 70%. 70 commerce is multiplied by library and maybe even a few universities for a total of 120 bpt. This would produce rep parts in some 30 turns or so. That is the very best we can hope for.

 

[Paul#42]

I think we should dow the following
1) India, ally Portugal - main goal being to get Delhi, perhaps could later consider getting Korean control of area to north (ie Spain and Portugal)

We should establish an embassy in Delhi now to see what we are up to.

2) Mayans, ally Incans - goal being to weaken both, later bring in Ottomen with aim of giving Mayan and Incan cities to Ottomen
3) Carthage, ally Chinese and Russians - main goal weaken Chinese
4) Arabs, ally Chinese and Greeks - again weakening Chinese so can later turn Russians and Greeks onto Chinese

Don't see any use in this, those SCI AI won't help us
Ottomans At least they managed to get expensive Monarchy. Maybe we should reward them? (sentimental idiot, me )

5) Monguls, ally Hittites, Persians and Babs - goal to weaken Monguls and Hittites so Bab and Persians can expand. When peace treaty expires, need to remove Dutch as well

Persia however is the only AI I would trust to research anything.
I favor allying Mongols against Hittites and sign in Persia after a couple of turns. Maybe also Dutch to burn their SoD

What do we want to do with the islands with only 1 AI (ie Rome and Celts)?

Ignore, keep peaceful (or get war happiness?), get gpt.

Plan for post taking Paris - dow Vikes with Americans as allies? Then turn on Americans?

If we go for Vikings, an ally would certainly help. However I'm not sure whether we should stop after taking Orleans.

Both Scandinavia and India have Iron and Feudalism.

I don't have a map ready. Do we know the Indian Iron source? Can our dromons pillage it? Or is it a mountain to place a pike on?

However, we don't really have any "juicy" targets other than Delhi, Paris and, cities around Paris that will be usefull at least temporarily. The other cities are worth little to us. I think we should go for the targets we need most.

Kyoto
The forest cut for the library here isn't gonna work out in time. The forest being planted N,NE of Kyoto should not be cut. Kyoto can use it for production at max size.

oops. Sorry if I messed that up.

Kyoto
No courthouse:
...That is the moment Kyoto should expand its cultural border. It can now be a 4 turn MDI factory. I think we should choose this option rather than paying 12 extra turns to make it a 3 turn factory.

I second that. We need some MDI now and the break even after some twenty turns is kinda late for our mid term tasks.

Teotihuacan:
Aquaduct in 8 turns. New citizens will use water. Production stays at 6spt.
We could build a barracks in 7 turns and then have it produce an MDI every 7 turns. It would take to turn 22 for the first MDI to come out and they would be produced slowly. We could just make thus our dromon producer. Dromons every 5 turns starting production after Aquaduct.

dromon factory sounds good to me. A worker every time the bin is filled.

Lets look at it from the bright side:
a 6 city AI works about 70 tiles when we are halfway the IA. these tiles produce about 100 commerce. We cause them to burn their units so science will stay at 70%. 70 commerce is multiplied by library and maybe even a few universities for a total of 120 bpt. This would produce rep parts in some 30 turns or so. That is the very best we can hope for.

If that is the bright side - I don't want to see the dark side...

Looking at the pics and calculations now, I wonder what I had thought at some worker decisions.
I think I had focussed too much on warfare and did not pay enough attention to planning worker actions...
Well it was not my best turnset, I have to apologize for that poor performance.

I guess the mining near Const is completely stupid, right?
Should it be changed to planting?

 

[Paul#42]

2 plans:

Paris then Scandinavia
T27 We take Bergen.

After this, we have to get our forces from scandinavia to India. We may need to add some from our core. Paris can immeadiately build a university.

I think we should also take Trondheim then (as our troops are there anyway), just to be save from berserks...

India then Paris
T24 With 6 new units produced before T15, and about 10 survivors from India, we attack Paris. It can immeadiately build an FP.

After this, we continue to conquer the Vikings with reeinforcements produced in our now powerfull Paris and we use the our home production for universities or for capturing science farms. (that is something to discuss later)

That is what I like about this option, Delhi is productive much more quickly. And Paris can rush FP immediately. If we are running out of units after taking Paris, we would have a tough time getting reinforcements there while Vikings keep producing without wasting their units on Paris' walls.

I'm torn about these two options.
Maybe we should decide after a quick glance at Delhi?
Everybody okay with establishing an embassy there right now?
(I really don't know why I did not do that already... )
Mark?

I guess, no matter how we decide, we rearrange the war as soon as Vikings and French sign peace, right?
Our gems should be sufficient for this (don't add Viking lump sum to that deal!)

 

[markh]

Trying to catch up. Will have a look tonight and post my thoughts.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I also favor the option attack Delhi first. If we attack Delhi first, we need ambassies with their neighbours. If however we can spare the gold to have a look at Delhi first, that is an option. I don't think it means a lot though if we make them go to war, they will produce lots of units and units will get killed. We don't know what AI is gonna be the winning one.

Yes, France and Vikings should keep fighting.

BTW, is AI research time also maxed at 50 turns? or is it any different ?

 

[Abegweit]

We seem to be developing a consensus on heading to India next. Embassies with the Maya and the Portuguese (is that who is the north of India) would be in order right now. A look-see at Delhi would cost 54g. Is it really worth it?

BTW, is AI research time also maxed at 50 turns? or is it any different ?

Good question. I would assume so.

 

[Paul#42]

A look-see at Delhi would cost 54g. Is it really worth it?

No. I had suggested that as a tie breaker if we are torn about what to attack next. If we all favor India, all his pikes and MDIs won't help poor moribund Gandhi.

Although I always like to know what I'm up against. Delhi could be better defended then Paris
At least it's closer to send reinforcements - and there are two AI to heckle him...

We should start that war immediately.
We should use that curragh to protect our dromons again...
And remember: Don't ping Indian galleys right before we want to attack Delhi

I won't even rely on an AI to research in 50 turns because I'm not sure they will invest that single beaker every turn...

 

[Abegweit]

Delhi could be better defended then Paris

I doubt that. There is only one City of Lights or rather, of Wool.

We should start that war immediately.

Agreed.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Our military is weak compared to India, Maya and Portugal. All of them.

Both Maya and Portugal are in AA without Iron. They are fighting with archers, spears and horses. India has MDI and Pikes.

I think the Indians are gonna run over them. I think we should start the war not too early, or they will conquer towns. It would be best if Indian units are not home when we assault Delhi, but not conquered other towns yet either.

Expecting us to land in 10 turns, i think we should get them to fight the Maya in 4 turns and Portugal in 5. First maybe will cause most forces to go that way. It will be slower for India to get there, and the land path may be a more advantagous battle field for the defender. If chichen Itza is conquered by India, it will probably be both easier and more usefull for us to take it than a Portugese city.