SGOTM 12 - Spooks

WackenOpenAir · Mar 19, 2007

small detail: Paul, don't forget if you start building workers in const in the second half of your turnset, to irrigate a cow with the first workers you make immeadiately.

Andro, don't use me as an example to draw any conclusions about language

Andronicus · Mar 19, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Andro, don't use me as an example to draw any conclusions about language

I think you mean Abegweit

PS Paul
If you initiate GA immediately we may be able to do chemistry in 2 turns
CivAssist shows we require 923 beakers
In GA at 90% science we do 438, but at 100% this becomes a tantalising 488 (ie 2 turns)
Might be a challenge to get 0 lux, but American silk and Sumerian dyes could help - would still likely require some entertainers +/- scientists - my quick look at the cities putting the lux slider to 0 suggests Teno, Teo, Osaka, Kyoto and Paris would require some sacrifice - a few have room to starve, a few units could help with MP duty - you get the picture

Paul#42 · Mar 19, 2007

Yes, I'll take these remarks into account.

Re gold gifts: You can gift more (of course) and it will be registered but only 100g will be used for attitude calculation. However 1g is fading away every turn (memories fade away...) but that's subtracted from the whole gifted sum, not from the 100g IIRC. So gifting more than 100g makes some sense.

WackenOpenAir · Mar 19, 2007

Another detail.

When we start our GA, some of our cities will have shields in store to get 30 but not 40 in 1 turn. We could make horses here and then trade Chivalry and upgrade them.
And finally, we can use the power of those Dromons to clean the oceans

A few knights wouldn't hurt i think.

We could even produce 2 turn horses instead of 3 turn MDI in Osaka and trade for chivalry in 6 turns. At the cost of 180 gold, we'd have 3 knights instead of 2 MDI. Thats a pretty good deal.

Orleans can't really build any Spears. We need the warriors for upgrading.
Maybe by the time we get to Greece, we will have had another leader. That will do a better job than a musket.

Also, try to waste as little food as possible to get Chem in 2. We want to make extra food so that we can skim some workers.

We could disband the curragh in Paris for a 1 turn harbor.

Paul#42 · Mar 19, 2007

I am playing now.

First action was to start out GA :bounce:

WackenOpenAir · Mar 19, 2007

Stil playing or should i stop waiting and go sleep ?

Andronicus · Mar 19, 2007

Another spectator in the grandstand peering through his binoculars trying to pick out any action :scan:

Meanwhile the cheerleaders can be heard .. GO Spooks, GO Spooks, GO Paul :crazyeye:

WackenOpenAir · Mar 19, 2007

Oh, send me some of those cheerleaders.

Paul#42 · Mar 19, 2007

Sorry guys - I should be online while I'm playing... :mischief:

Played till turn #134 so far
Vikings lost Bergen - to Abe. :wow:

But they still have two towns for us to capture: Two Berserks took Orleans, killing AC and MDI :aargh:

I thought I had learned my lesson and did not ping those Viking galleys :wallbash:

But here's the long story:

Spoiler :

have a break here... :coffee:

Andronicus · Mar 19, 2007

Paul#42 said:
Americans start Sistines in Washington. Trondheim still builds it
Americans land two MDi next to Trondheim.

I note there is only 1 American MDI left outside Trondheim - what happened in the IBT?
Trondheim should have only 2 or at most 3 pikes - if one American MDI won that would be 2 max
? worth shooting off at it with our 2 AC and proceeding with MDIs only if odds good?

Hopefully 3MDI will be sufficient for Orleans, but expect to lose an MDI to zerk attack when move adjacent (could move the 3 MDIs to different adjacent tiles (edit ie W, SW and S of Orleans) so any zerk attack leaves it stranded outside Orleans -> 1 less to kill in Orleans the following turn )

Andronicus · Mar 19, 2007

Losing Orleans impacts heavily on Paris's development as we were depending on Orleans providing the workers. We badly need workers to Paris - hopefully Trondheim will cooperate.

I thought plan was dow Portugal and ally Spain since Portugal appears to have best lands for science farming (other than Greece), although Spain would surely be target after Portugal

Unit maintenance costs are getting high, esp at the rate we are building units.
Should we build markets? This would also get rid of the 10% lux tax which currently costs us 55 science per turn

Abegweit · Mar 19, 2007

Bring the lux rate down to 0. Osaka needs a clown. That's all. Definitely agree with the court in Paris. Saves a turn. Ragnar needs to die within three turns.

Pinging depends on where you want the troops to go. In this case, you definitely don't want them to go to Orleans.... as you saw.

Andronicus · Mar 19, 2007

Abegweit said:
Bring the lux rate down to 0. Osaka needs a clown. That's all.

The clown could be a scientist if the AC moves in as MP. Next turn Teo grows size 12 and would also require a specialist or MP - it would need to lose that shield rich forest tile to avoid starving back to size 11 if it uses a specialist.
By time we get sanitation and hospitals we will definitely need markets, isnt it time to prepare by building now in core cities unable to use all their tiles without a market?

edit with 13 dromon / caravels and 30 total land units do we really need more naval transport (they will soon be upgradable to galleons). Our sum total of 2 paltry workers (and 5 slaves) requires urgent attention.

Paul#42 · Mar 20, 2007

Andronicus said:
I note there is only 1 American MDI left outside Trondheim - what happened in the IBT?

One MDI died to a pike (->2/4), the other pillaged. A vet piked remained on top.

Andronicus said:
Trondheim should have only 2 or at most 3 pikes - if one American MDI won that would be 2 max
? worth shooting off at it with our 2 AC and proceeding with MDIs only if odds good?

Yes, I thought I'd shell with dromons first and then kill with AC. MDI for the redlined.

Andronicus said:
Hopefully 3MDI will be sufficient for Orleans, but expect to lose an MDI to zerk attack when move adjacent (could move the 3 MDIs to different adjacent tiles (edit ie W, SW and S of Orleans) so any zerk attack leaves it stranded outside Orleans -> 1 less to kill in Orleans the following turn )

That's why it's three, I expect exactly one of the two to attack. Good idea to lure him out.

Abegweit said:
Bring the lux rate down to 0. Osaka needs a clown. That's all. Definitely agree with the court in Paris. Saves a turn. Ragnar needs to die within three turns.

Andronicus said:
The clown could be a scientist if the AC moves in as MP. Next turn Teo grows size 12 and would also require a specialist or MP - it would need to lose that shield rich forest tile to avoid starving back to size 11 if it uses a specialist.

I began shipping our troops to India to start the Portugal / Spain campaign. That's why I don't want to leave much MP behind.
Of course you are right, we decided to go after Portugal allied with Spain. As soon as we have more than that single AC there, I will declare. :hammer:

Andronicus said:
By time we get sanitation and hospitals we will definitely need markets, isnt it time to prepare by building now in core cities unable to use all their tiles without a market?

Wacken had suggested markets from turn ~13. I agree with him that we need some forces first to make quick progress in Portugal to "chop some slaves". Maybe we switch to market earlier if the campaign goes well...

Andronicus said:
edit with 13 dromon / caravels and 30 total land units do we really need more naval transport (they will soon be upgradable to galleons). Our sum total of 2 paltry workers (and 5 slaves) requires urgent attention.

I'm not sure if we want to upgrade all dromons. Shelling a coastal town is always nice... However it's quite a luxury when unit support presses... :hmm:

WackenOpenAir · Mar 20, 2007

Paul#42 said:
I thought I had learned my lesson and did not ping those Viking galleys

Ping ?

how about sinking them ? :confused:

Paul#42 said:
Wacken had suggested markets from turn ~13. I agree with him that we need some forces first to make quick progress in Portugal to "chop some slaves". Maybe we switch to market earlier if the campaign goes well...

Whats wrong with the build orders i posted ?

I see the idea for horses in Osaka didn't make it to the final plans either.

Paul#42 · Mar 20, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Ping ?
how about sinking them ? .

I had only one dromon near Paris and did not shell the second galley so it would sail away. I decided to monitor the front. When I saw that American stack, I knew that decision was wrong :blush:

Btw it was the first galley that attacked Orleans, I could not reach that with the southern dromon anyway. :mischief:

Looking back, I obviously should have drawn two dromons to Orleans but I did not want to devide our forces... :wallbash:

WackenOpenAir said:
Whats wrong with the build orders i posted ?

Obviously we have some happiness problems in those size-12-towns that hinder us to go 100% science. One way to adress that is to build markets. Your plans delayed them to turn #13 which I support.
However I think we should monitor our progress and casually adapt to our perceptions... :hmm:

WackenOpenAir said:
I see the idea for horses in Osaka didn't make it to the final plans either.

Paul#42 said:
turn 131 70AD
IBT
Osaka uni -> horse

It did make it, but I made a MM mistake in the first turn and was a shield short to build it :blush:

Andronicus · Mar 20, 2007

WackenOpenAir said:
Whats wrong with the build orders i posted ?

Paul answered this, but since I posed the question

Andronicus said:
By time we get sanitation and hospitals we will definitely need markets, isnt it time to prepare by building now in core cities unable to use all their tiles without a market?

, I should answer.

In fact thinking on it some more perhaps there is a 3rd better option.

My concern, as Paul points out, is the loss of research running only 90% - loss of approx 55 science per turn currently and only going to increase as further science multipliers are built.

I feel uncomfortable with the large unit upkeep costs that are steadily growing, though I agree with your theory regarding units paying for themselves as they capture cities. Unfortunately losing Orleans has temporarily put things in the opposite direction. No doubt the imminent capture and recapture of Trondheim and Orleans respectively will help restore the situation, but we are still quite some way from the 10 extra cities you based your cost benefit analysis on.

A compromise which allows 100% science and only brief delay in units is to reduce pop size with a few workers where specialists would otherwise be required. These workers are badly needed at Paris where speeding up production of science multipliers has a significant effect on our overall science rate. The markets then would not be needed until just before building hospitals as per your original plan.
Only Teot and Osaka would need to run at size 11 (Teot can build a worker this turn and grow to size 11) if an MP is stationed in each, size 10 if not.

edit
In case its not clear - I now agree with you that we should not build markets now, but suggest considering workers so we can run 100% science

Andronicus · Mar 20, 2007

Bad news on our trade rep unfortunately

I noticed that Babs will not trade hard goods for gpt

Going through all civs, it appears Babs, Carthage, Russians, Arabs will not - I dont know about Iroqois as they have nothing to test against. Notably Greeks will trade which suggests it is the Russians who we inadvertently slighted since they are at war with Greeks (so Greeks ignore the misdeed).

I note in the 150BC save we were trading Russia ivory, spices and gems but the war with Greece evidently interrupted this as in the 70AD save no trade was possible.

Nothing we can do about this any more other than noting that if we need AI money / techs and only have lux or gpt we can always opt to renegotiate peace treaty and get hard goods that way.
This has significance for the tech trading at the age change - we want to be free to renegotiate peace with any scientific AI at that time

WackenOpenAir · Mar 20, 2007

Oh, it's only those 2 towns. We can just let those be size 11 yes. If we bring those workers to Orleans, maybe they can join and get Orleans online for earlier production. Investing workers that cost upkeep to get more workers is a very good thing of course.

WackenOpenAir · Mar 20, 2007

Would the reputation thing maybe best be solved by keeping alive the one we screwed over and allying everyone against him in the end ?

If that is needed of course. If not, i'd rather capture them.

SGOTM 12 - Spooks

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