SGOTM 12 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I also think we should make the war only like 8 turns before we are planning to fight ourselves. That is enough time for their units to travel to the front lines and die there. If we do it 20 turns in advance, they will have peace again by the time we are ready.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
We don't have our mines. This is going to complicate things when we get to lit.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Yep, thats why we need to build workers. One is almost ready. Then, we should probably build anotherone and be size 11 for a little while. I think it would have been better to use the workers that are now collonies but thats too late now.
(at size 11, we will get 4 fpt. It is easier to grow back to size 12 than to try and fill the food box at size 12 as that would require extra citizens at work, requiring a higher lux slider)
(at size 11, we will get 4 fpt. It is easier to grow back to size 12 than to try and fill the food box at size 12 as that would require extra citizens at work, requiring a higher lux slider)
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Over the next 18 turns:
We have 109g + 16 from Japan
We need 270 to pay our debts + 45 for an embassy + 21 in maintenance.
Equals a deficit of 211g or a little under 12 gpt.
At 12 gpt, we will get to Lit in 20 turns.
One worker, built two turns from now can do the job with a turn to spare.
Even if we build two workers, I certainly wouldn't grow back to size 12. Fold one back in instead.
We have 109g + 16 from Japan
We need 270 to pay our debts + 45 for an embassy + 21 in maintenance.
Equals a deficit of 211g or a little under 12 gpt.
At 12 gpt, we will get to Lit in 20 turns.
One worker, built two turns from now can do the job with a turn to spare.
Even if we build two workers, I certainly wouldn't grow back to size 12. Fold one back in instead.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
why not back to 12 ? Are scientists no good ?
I really think we should build 2, because those 2 mines is not all that we need. We will eventually need to mine everything and cut the jungle.
I really think we should build 2, because those 2 mines is not all that we need. We will eventually need to mine everything and cut the jungle.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
By folding it back in, we can hire two scientists at size 11 and a third at size twelve instead of letting it grow. The difference is only about five beakers but still...
As for other things to do, one worker should be more than enough. We'll probably have to disband it too (and the MPs), since we will soon have an army to feed.
What other work do we need for the next thousand years or so anyway? Won't this be all we need until GA or Sanitation?
As for other things to do, one worker should be more than enough. We'll probably have to disband it too (and the MPs), since we will soon have an army to feed.
What other work do we need for the next thousand years or so anyway? Won't this be all we need until GA or Sanitation?
killercane
Deity
We need to cut the jungle and forest the eastern cow in addition to the mines to get 30 spt. My math might be wrong though on the food part, we might have small starvation.
Forest cow- 3 shields
Iron hill- 4
Mined cows (plains and BG)- 6
5 ivories- 10
City center- 2
Bonus grass- 2
2 jungle tiles-2-4, if no BG we forest one of them for 30.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Hmmm... I see the point. However, what purpose would they serve? Dromons? We should have all we need long before we get to 30 spt. To save one turn on a market? They don't help at all for MDI which is all the troops we will be building for a long long time.
I'd rather irrigate everything and hire scientists, which is what we have done already. Work the lake if we are thinking of a high tax period. Gold is what we are short of.
I don't think we can afford the maintenance either. All available unit support should go towards the army.
Anyway, I suppose that it doesn't cost much to keep them around until we can't afford them any longer. That time-frame should be enough to chop the jungles.
Speaking of markets, shouldn't we build one now? It will pay for itself very rapidly, especially as we won't be able to keep up this science rate for very long.
Build sequence: worker-worker-market? Then let the city grow as you and Wacken want.
I'd rather irrigate everything and hire scientists, which is what we have done already. Work the lake if we are thinking of a high tax period. Gold is what we are short of.
I don't think we can afford the maintenance either. All available unit support should go towards the army.
Anyway, I suppose that it doesn't cost much to keep them around until we can't afford them any longer. That time-frame should be enough to chop the jungles.
Speaking of markets, shouldn't we build one now? It will pay for itself very rapidly, especially as we won't be able to keep up this science rate for very long.
Build sequence: worker-worker-market? Then let the city grow as you and Wacken want.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I would like to work the area in case we get forced into a golden age by defensive dromon victory. If we have a golden age without improved tiles, we lose out many times what it costs to avoid that problem.
When we have a library, scientists will be less important as the commerce from our tiles is increased.
A market place is not worth much if we are running high science. If we are gonna stack gold for MA taring we need one though. Of course it is more efficient to build it with some mines.
When we have a library, scientists will be less important as the commerce from our tiles is increased.
A market place is not worth much if we are running high science. If we are gonna stack gold for MA taring we need one though. Of course it is more efficient to build it with some mines.
killercane
Deity
If we hire another scientist, do we save a turn on lit? Admittedly, 30 spt doesnt really fit well, but neither does 26 or so. Better to have a few 1 turn Dromons to use as catapults and a couple of pikes.
City only needs to be size 12 really for library time IF we are using the library. If the others dont get construction in time, a market would be good. I actually think we should choose between market and troops if we find the gold to keep lit at reasonably high science (<20 turns). I think we should come up with attack plans w/ timeline with market and without. And what will troop composition be for a landing? It is 20 turns to 1500 bc.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Good point. This is only true, however, if we can attain the magical 30 spt. It would be worth recalculating KC's numbers for a GA.
A market gives us two benefits. First off, four additional happies should enable us to get rid of the MPs. That alone is 9gpt in unit support which can go to the army or workers or whatever we want. A 9% return on the investment is pretty damn good on its own. Secondly, it allows to increase science WRT taxes. It will take roughly 12 cpt to get us to Lit. If we can get that with 8 base commerce plus a market instead of 12 on the slider, that might save a turn or two. That brings us us to an ROI of 13%.
All this is in exchange for an army which we aren't even ready to use yet! We don't know MM and the discussions so far lean to starting with a phony war (something I agree with).
Indeed it is. But to save a turn while waiting perhaps thirty turns before receiving the benefits? We need it now. Two workers + a market (including disbands) = eight turns.
killercane
Deity
Im coming around to Abe's Market idea; I just dont like delaying war. I have a solution though: we whip it for 4 pop, add back in workers. This is if we only get 1 unhappy citizen, I really dont know how whipping works in this case, if we get 4 unhappies for whipping away 4 pop.
It would work like this:
Next turnset
Sword
2 workers as food box is full
7 turns or so for growth (or 5?) so 3 swords/dromons.
Turnset after
Another worker
Swords or Dromons
Another worker on growth
1 turn of market for 20 shields, then whip 4 pop. Add in the workers. What will unhappiness be (with and without harbor to import a lux from India)?
4 workers can get most of the tiles mined that we need but no jungle operation. We build another worker or two later. We build for war and get the market in reasonable time, which I think market is more important than library until we research. It will cost a lot to start world wars.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
wow !
Thats one hell of a flawed reasoning.
It provides 1 extra happiness. 4 if we can trade 2 more luxes. 1 happiness = 1 gold. MP is just a rediculous expensive thing. Compare to the lux slider cost, not to MP. MP will be disbanded as soon as we get past our free support. So thats 1 gold for the comming while. It also costs 1 gold upkeep. So it does exactly NOTHING until we have either a harbor and trade luxes (increasing the value with 3 gold) or we run high tax (increasing the value so significantly it could get worthy) I say it COULD get worthy because even if we run 20 turns of tax, it is not said to be worth a marketplace if we can also use our shields on units that conquer cities and provide us commerce trough that way. We should compare those things if we have a plan to run tax.
And when you try calculating ROI, don't just go compare shields and commerce like they're the same. (not implying shields are worth much more than gold in this game, but just counting them the same without putting any thought to it seems just silly to me.)
KC: Is whip unhappiness different under Feudalism ?
If not, it surely will provide 1 unhappy face for every citizen whipped. If the market also provides 4 happiness, that 4 whip unhappiness still isn't ruled out and we should think about it though. (maybe just like the colossus wasn't ruled out imeadiately, but anyway....
)
WackenOpenAir
Deity
As it stands, we have 15 production, 2 food and 2 specialists.
Let's assume the jungle are both regular grasslands.
We set the sepecialists to work on the mined regular grasslands(+2s / +4f).
Citizen from the lake to the hill (+4 / -1).
Mine the Ivory plains (+3/0).
Mine 3cows and BG (+4/-4)
Total: (+13 / -1)
Makes 28s and 1 food surplus without forests.
Add a forest on the regular cow (+2/-1) and we have 30shields and 0 food.
We have 12 land tiles to use, the golden age will add 12 shields.
Therefore, the golden age can provide 40 shields even before we can make forests. With A forest, the golden age can also provide 40 shiels with just 1 jungle cut.
Of course, this comes at quite a cost to our science. We would no longer have scientists. The extra used tiles all provide only 1 commerce. So we lose out 100% of the value of the 2 scientists and we lose 1 commerce from the lake that is gonna work a land tile. Total loss = 7 science (Library changes little to that, but GA reduces the loss by 2)
We certainly don't want to lose 7 science until we are actually using the production efficiently. By the time we have the ability to make forests, we most likely also have the ability to make MDI.
It would of course be possible to mine when we want to build dromons, and irrigate them when we are done building dromons again. This is however not very practical, so i think we should only mine the cows when we are building 40 shield units and we get our golden age or when we will be producing more expensive things than MDI.
To summarize:
-We cannot have 30s before engineering
-We don't want 30s before we have a golden age to make it 40.
-We only need 1 jungle to get 40s in GA
-We want the other jungle to get 30s after the GA (for producing Universities, wonders, and maybe calvalry in the far future)
Therefore, we should first make all the preparations that do not cost us food:
A) First mine the Hill and 1 Ivory plains to make 20s (18 worker turns)
B) Mine other Ivory plains, cut + mine 1 jungle(46 - 49 worker turns*)
C) Mine 2 cows and BG an forest 1 cow for 40s in GA (28 worker turns total)
D) Cut 1 jungle work the jungle tile for 30s after GA(34 - 37 worker turns*)
A Should be done before we build market/library/MDI.
B is merely a prerequested for C
C Should be done when we have our GA or when we produce more expensive things than MDI. Preferably not later, but also not earlier.**
D Should be done after the GA is over.
A. can be done by the one worker that will be done in 2 turns.
B. Is best done as early as possible as we don't know when C will be needed. Having it done by 1 worker will be enough if we can delay our golden age by 80 from now AND we arent building more expensive things than MDI within that time. Obtaining slaves will shorten this time.
C. We should have multiple workers on this job so that the jobs are done in quick succession. All time spend with only part of this job done is time where we lose science while we do not yet gain production.
D: We have 20 turns for project D and thus need 2 workers for this job, or we must have done part of it earlier.
So, to cut it short. I think 1 worker can be enough if we can delay our Golden Age till after We have obtained slaves to do the work.
If can't be sure that we can delay our GA this much, i think a second worker is prefered. The earlier we make it, the better i think.
PS: This is all without thinking about KC's pop rush plan. I will think about the pop rush plan now, but i don't expect a positive outcome for that idea.
*24 for the cut, 6 for mine, 3 for road and 2 for worker moves of 2 workers are stacked on te tile. 35 total. Stacking 3 workers makes it 36 worker turns. When stacking more than 3 workers, it is better to have 1 road before the cut, losing 3 extra on the road and only once losing a movement. This costs 37 worker turns, regardless of how many are stacked after roading)
** Besides units, we could think of: (1) Library. (2) Marketplace. (3) University. (4) Wonders.
LIb doesnt matter, will be build at 20spt.
Market and University could benefit from 25spt. Both would gain 1 turn (both are 100 shields) building them in 3 is not possible without GA. Getting 25 also requires sacrificing food. Not so much though, so if we want to invest about 20 worker turns for this and we build these 2 in imeadiate succession, we could make 25 and then reverse to food again. I think we should let go these 2 turns of production though and simply build them at 20spt if they are not gonna be build during GA.
Wonders, what wonders do we want ? I think science wonders and the one that alows us to grow past size 12. Both are in a far distant future, long after we have gotten slaves to do work for us.
Let's assume the jungle are both regular grasslands.
We set the sepecialists to work on the mined regular grasslands(+2s / +4f).
Citizen from the lake to the hill (+4 / -1).
Mine the Ivory plains (+3/0).
Mine 3cows and BG (+4/-4)
Total: (+13 / -1)
Makes 28s and 1 food surplus without forests.
Add a forest on the regular cow (+2/-1) and we have 30shields and 0 food.
We have 12 land tiles to use, the golden age will add 12 shields.
Therefore, the golden age can provide 40 shields even before we can make forests. With A forest, the golden age can also provide 40 shiels with just 1 jungle cut.
Of course, this comes at quite a cost to our science. We would no longer have scientists. The extra used tiles all provide only 1 commerce. So we lose out 100% of the value of the 2 scientists and we lose 1 commerce from the lake that is gonna work a land tile. Total loss = 7 science (Library changes little to that, but GA reduces the loss by 2)
We certainly don't want to lose 7 science until we are actually using the production efficiently. By the time we have the ability to make forests, we most likely also have the ability to make MDI.
It would of course be possible to mine when we want to build dromons, and irrigate them when we are done building dromons again. This is however not very practical, so i think we should only mine the cows when we are building 40 shield units and we get our golden age or when we will be producing more expensive things than MDI.
To summarize:
-We cannot have 30s before engineering
-We don't want 30s before we have a golden age to make it 40.
-We only need 1 jungle to get 40s in GA
-We want the other jungle to get 30s after the GA (for producing Universities, wonders, and maybe calvalry in the far future)
Therefore, we should first make all the preparations that do not cost us food:
A) First mine the Hill and 1 Ivory plains to make 20s (18 worker turns)
B) Mine other Ivory plains, cut + mine 1 jungle(46 - 49 worker turns*)
C) Mine 2 cows and BG an forest 1 cow for 40s in GA (28 worker turns total)
D) Cut 1 jungle work the jungle tile for 30s after GA(34 - 37 worker turns*)
A Should be done before we build market/library/MDI.
B is merely a prerequested for C
C Should be done when we have our GA or when we produce more expensive things than MDI. Preferably not later, but also not earlier.**
D Should be done after the GA is over.
A. can be done by the one worker that will be done in 2 turns.
B. Is best done as early as possible as we don't know when C will be needed. Having it done by 1 worker will be enough if we can delay our golden age by 80 from now AND we arent building more expensive things than MDI within that time. Obtaining slaves will shorten this time.
C. We should have multiple workers on this job so that the jobs are done in quick succession. All time spend with only part of this job done is time where we lose science while we do not yet gain production.
D: We have 20 turns for project D and thus need 2 workers for this job, or we must have done part of it earlier.
So, to cut it short. I think 1 worker can be enough if we can delay our Golden Age till after We have obtained slaves to do the work.
If can't be sure that we can delay our GA this much, i think a second worker is prefered. The earlier we make it, the better i think.
PS: This is all without thinking about KC's pop rush plan. I will think about the pop rush plan now, but i don't expect a positive outcome for that idea.
*24 for the cut, 6 for mine, 3 for road and 2 for worker moves of 2 workers are stacked on te tile. 35 total. Stacking 3 workers makes it 36 worker turns. When stacking more than 3 workers, it is better to have 1 road before the cut, losing 3 extra on the road and only once losing a movement. This costs 37 worker turns, regardless of how many are stacked after roading)
** Besides units, we could think of: (1) Library. (2) Marketplace. (3) University. (4) Wonders.
LIb doesnt matter, will be build at 20spt.
Market and University could benefit from 25spt. Both would gain 1 turn (both are 100 shields) building them in 3 is not possible without GA. Getting 25 also requires sacrificing food. Not so much though, so if we want to invest about 20 worker turns for this and we build these 2 in imeadiate succession, we could make 25 and then reverse to food again. I think we should let go these 2 turns of production though and simply build them at 20spt if they are not gonna be build during GA.
Wonders, what wonders do we want ? I think science wonders and the one that alows us to grow past size 12. Both are in a far distant future, long after we have gotten slaves to do work for us.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Lets start thinking about that pop rush plan.
First i want to change the plan to use 3 workers, not 4. One turn production(20), 3 pop rush(80, 1 turn production(100). To do it with 4, we would have to disband something in the city.
Cost:
-Unhappiness (120g ?)
-We need to make 3 workers. (20g)
Reward:
-2 turn market (60s + few g)
-3 workers improve safety for the risk of an early GA. (?)
Unhappy
First, i am not sure about the unhappyness either. I do know that if you rush 3 citizens in 1 action, you get 3 unhappines and one will be repaired every 20 turns. So that takes 60 turns to be cleared.
I do not know if it is the same if you take 3 steps to pop rush (pay 1 to rush something 40s, pay1to rush 60s, pay 1 to rush 80s) Also would we need builds for those steps. I see nothing for 80s, so that may be impossible
most likely we cannot even use the steps properly.
Since we can use all the happyness we can get, each uphappy face costs 1gpt. Most likely whipping 3 costs us 120g.
Build workers
I suggested building 2 workers anyway. The extra cost of a third means being size 11 for a while extra, costing us roughly 20gold.
2 turn market
3 turns production gained. A few gold from the 3 extra market turns. Could be just 3 for happiness, could be a few dozen if we are running tax those 3 turns.
safety for GA
Hard to measure. It reduces te risk that we lose out on 20 shields per turn for a total of 100's of shields. How big is this risk ? I don't know. I estimate we reduce the risk with a few % or maybe a dozen% or so. That could be worth like 10 or 20 shields. These are wild guesses, but i think thats roughly what to expect.
Conclusion:
We gain 3 turns of production and some chance for much more. Thats worth like 2 MDI that we can use for conquest. The price we pay is 120g.
Would we want to buy 2 MDI for 120gold ? *
-If the answer is yes, then we should see if pop rushing even fits into our build orders.
-If the answer is no, we should not think about pop rushing the market.
*Think not about how cheap it is compared to gold rushing or upgrading. Think about what will those MDI do for us, is that worth 120 gold ?
First i want to change the plan to use 3 workers, not 4. One turn production(20), 3 pop rush(80, 1 turn production(100). To do it with 4, we would have to disband something in the city.
Cost:
-Unhappiness (120g ?)
-We need to make 3 workers. (20g)
Reward:
-2 turn market (60s + few g)
-3 workers improve safety for the risk of an early GA. (?)
Unhappy
First, i am not sure about the unhappyness either. I do know that if you rush 3 citizens in 1 action, you get 3 unhappines and one will be repaired every 20 turns. So that takes 60 turns to be cleared.
I do not know if it is the same if you take 3 steps to pop rush (pay 1 to rush something 40s, pay1to rush 60s, pay 1 to rush 80s) Also would we need builds for those steps. I see nothing for 80s, so that may be impossible
most likely we cannot even use the steps properly.
Since we can use all the happyness we can get, each uphappy face costs 1gpt. Most likely whipping 3 costs us 120g.
Build workers
I suggested building 2 workers anyway. The extra cost of a third means being size 11 for a while extra, costing us roughly 20gold.
2 turn market
3 turns production gained. A few gold from the 3 extra market turns. Could be just 3 for happiness, could be a few dozen if we are running tax those 3 turns.
safety for GA
Hard to measure. It reduces te risk that we lose out on 20 shields per turn for a total of 100's of shields. How big is this risk ? I don't know. I estimate we reduce the risk with a few % or maybe a dozen% or so. That could be worth like 10 or 20 shields. These are wild guesses, but i think thats roughly what to expect.
Conclusion:
We gain 3 turns of production and some chance for much more. Thats worth like 2 MDI that we can use for conquest. The price we pay is 120g.
Would we want to buy 2 MDI for 120gold ? *
-If the answer is yes, then we should see if pop rushing even fits into our build orders.
-If the answer is no, we should not think about pop rushing the market.
*Think not about how cheap it is compared to gold rushing or upgrading. Think about what will those MDI do for us, is that worth 120 gold ?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
We have about 130 worker turns of work to do in total. If we build 3 workers somewhat quickly now, that would mean 45 turns before we are ready to pop rush that market. If we build 4 workers, it would still be 35 turns from now.
This would all be much later than the possible period of running max tax.
So, iIf we decide to run max tax anytime soon, we can skip this plan of pop rushing the market all together.
So first we must decide if we do plan to run max tax.
I think, before we can decide properly on that, we need to play another turnset and see what the AI is gonna research for us soon.
Of course, there still is much to consider before we play:
-If we want to keep our options open to run tax and have a marketplace, we should make a second worker very soon to have 20 spt about 12 turns from now, alowing us to have a marketplace about 17 turns from now. So 1 worker would be enough to allow us 20 spt for MDI, 2 workers are needed to keep open the option for a tax run.
-We should build as many dromons as we feel sure we are gonna need in the near future as they are now a good build, but it will be a waste to build them when we have 20spt to bulid MDI. I suggest we build 5 dromons before we can build MDI. This may be 20 turns from now if we are lucky.
-We must get our political plans going if we ever want the AI to research anything for us.
It took a while, but i have made up my mind about 1 thing:
-we should make 2 workers when our food box fills up.
This would all be much later than the possible period of running max tax.
So, iIf we decide to run max tax anytime soon, we can skip this plan of pop rushing the market all together.
So first we must decide if we do plan to run max tax.
I think, before we can decide properly on that, we need to play another turnset and see what the AI is gonna research for us soon.
Of course, there still is much to consider before we play:
-If we want to keep our options open to run tax and have a marketplace, we should make a second worker very soon to have 20 spt about 12 turns from now, alowing us to have a marketplace about 17 turns from now. So 1 worker would be enough to allow us 20 spt for MDI, 2 workers are needed to keep open the option for a tax run.
-We should build as many dromons as we feel sure we are gonna need in the near future as they are now a good build, but it will be a waste to build them when we have 20spt to bulid MDI. I suggest we build 5 dromons before we can build MDI. This may be 20 turns from now if we are lucky.
-We must get our political plans going if we ever want the AI to research anything for us.
It took a while, but i have made up my mind about 1 thing:
-we should make 2 workers when our food box fills up.
killercane
Deity
The dreaded Wacken Quadruple Post. NM, just pointing that out 
. Well actually, after thinking:
Build order
2 workers
4 swords/dromons if we get maps
The Great Lighthouse- we have 3 civs that can get GA by us, Aztecs, Maya, and Inca. If we do get lucky to get maps, do we put any or all or some of these to war and give them all Map Making? And how do we get MM?
. Well actually, after thinking:Build order
2 workers
4 swords/dromons if we get maps
The Great Lighthouse- we have 3 civs that can get GA by us, Aztecs, Maya, and Inca. If we do get lucky to get maps, do we put any or all or some of these to war and give them all Map Making? And how do we get MM?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Has everyone fallen asleep ?
I think i have thought of pretty much all i'd like to think of for the next turnset.
The workers
1: Produce a worker right now, and the population drop will cause the food surplus to rise next turn.
2: Then produce a worker again. We will have growth this turn and still be size 11. It will now take 5 turns to grow back to size 12.
If you want to build another worker when the box fills up again is up to you. It is not needed if we can delay our GA long enough, but if we cannot delay our golden age enough, it will be great. The cost of this worker is 1 turn production and 15 science.
Tech trading
Meanwhile, these are the things we care about:
-Getting map Map Making
-Keeping our monopoly on poly till construction is out.
-Getting back our gpt from India before the deal runs out.
A: The first available tech is MM. It is not researched by the India.
-We trade it from that AI, using math and philo. We then sell it to India to get back our gpt.
B: Some other AI gets a new tech and India trades it before we get a chance.
-Tough luck, we should see what happened to the gpt and reconsider.
C: The first available tech is MM. It is researched by India.
-We wait until another AI has it as well. (shouldn't take long) We then trade it from that AI with math and philo. If any AI researches Poly and we can trade it, we can trade and use that to get back our gpt from India.
D: The first available tech is not MM but Poly or CoL, not researched by India.
-If we wait trading, India is gonna ruin our semi-monopoly on math and philo. So we trade it and we sell it for our GPT to India. This may make it hard to get MM, but if we don't trade it here, we have nothing.
E: The first avalable tech is MM but Poly or CoL, it is researched by India.
-The biggest problem now is that we can be rather sure India will research MM next and thus, it will take ages before we get construction from them. Wait for other AI's to get techs for us, then reconsider.
Politics & Exploration
I think the boat south of Japan should cross the ocean to the southern hemisphere. It seems relatively save to do that south of Egypt.
Korea should someday conquer spain.
Ottomans should someday conquer a lot on that big island of theirs.
We are in no hurry to make war between Japan and Aztecs IMO. We won't be fighting there within 20 turns. If we make war now, they will be in peace again before we get there.
I think i have thought of pretty much all i'd like to think of for the next turnset.
The workers
1: Produce a worker right now, and the population drop will cause the food surplus to rise next turn.
2: Then produce a worker again. We will have growth this turn and still be size 11. It will now take 5 turns to grow back to size 12.
If you want to build another worker when the box fills up again is up to you. It is not needed if we can delay our GA long enough, but if we cannot delay our golden age enough, it will be great. The cost of this worker is 1 turn production and 15 science.
Tech trading
Meanwhile, these are the things we care about:
-Getting map Map Making
-Keeping our monopoly on poly till construction is out.
-Getting back our gpt from India before the deal runs out.
A: The first available tech is MM. It is not researched by the India.
-We trade it from that AI, using math and philo. We then sell it to India to get back our gpt.
B: Some other AI gets a new tech and India trades it before we get a chance.
-Tough luck, we should see what happened to the gpt and reconsider.
C: The first available tech is MM. It is researched by India.
-We wait until another AI has it as well. (shouldn't take long) We then trade it from that AI with math and philo. If any AI researches Poly and we can trade it, we can trade and use that to get back our gpt from India.
D: The first available tech is not MM but Poly or CoL, not researched by India.
-If we wait trading, India is gonna ruin our semi-monopoly on math and philo. So we trade it and we sell it for our GPT to India. This may make it hard to get MM, but if we don't trade it here, we have nothing.
E: The first avalable tech is MM but Poly or CoL, it is researched by India.
-The biggest problem now is that we can be rather sure India will research MM next and thus, it will take ages before we get construction from them. Wait for other AI's to get techs for us, then reconsider.
Politics & Exploration
I think the boat south of Japan should cross the ocean to the southern hemisphere. It seems relatively save to do that south of Egypt.
Korea should someday conquer spain.
Ottomans should someday conquer a lot on that big island of theirs.
We are in no hurry to make war between Japan and Aztecs IMO. We won't be fighting there within 20 turns. If we make war now, they will be in peace again before we get there.
Good discussion here 
(actually quite a monolog, Wacken
).
Sorry, I was involved in RL lately. Cologne Carnival took its toll...
I hope to catch up in discussion over the day and play some turns tonight (~12 hours from now) if everything is clear.
From the first read I dislike poprushing in the capital even if we don't get any unhappiness. I do not see the three workers to add and do not want to lose scientists to a building that is of minor use before we build a harbor. And I don't see the 80s-milestone (courthouse) yet.
Maybe the market will become a subject a turnset later again.
I agree on building two workers next and dromons / swords later.
The diplomatic situation I can't judge right now because I have just CA2 available and can't view any maps.
(actually quite a monolog, Wacken ). Sorry, I was involved in RL lately. Cologne Carnival took its toll...
I hope to catch up in discussion over the day and play some turns tonight (~12 hours from now) if everything is clear.
From the first read I dislike poprushing in the capital even if we don't get any unhappiness. I do not see the three workers to add and do not want to lose scientists to a building that is of minor use before we build a harbor. And I don't see the 80s-milestone (courthouse) yet.
Maybe the market will become a subject a turnset later again.
I agree on building two workers next and dromons / swords later.
The diplomatic situation I can't judge right now because I have just CA2 available and can't view any maps.
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