SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

Ah yes, electricity. Tis allows us to irrigate anywhere !

We can turn the whole world into farms

So just use the whole map except Edrine and Copan, and try and conquer as much as we can in those 32 turns. With 10 upgraded warriors and 850 shields worth of production, i would say we should be able to take quite some towns.
The more grassland and not plains/hills makes it better to conquer though.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Now productions a little more precise: (turns)
GA starts on turn 12.

Constantinople
worker(1), worker(2), ....

Tenochtitlan
14spt, 24 in GA.
MDI(3), MDI(6), MDI(9), MDI(12), MDI(14), MDI(16), Marketplace(21), courthouse(25), Hospital(32)

Teotihuacan
7spt, 12 in GA.
University(3), Dromon(8), market(18), Hospital(32)
Market is 1 shield short, needs to borrow a tile for 1 turn.

Osaka
10spt, 15 in GA.
University(1), MDI(5), MDI(9), MDI(13), MDI(16), Marketplace(23), Hospital(34)

Kyoto
13spt, 20 in GA.
MDI(4), MDI(8), MDI(12), MDI(14), Market(19) Harbor(21), Courthouse(25), Hospital(33)[/I]
This town does not yet need a harbor.

Thebes
7spt, 14 in GA.
University(9), MDI(14), MDI(17), MDI(20), Hospital(32)

Delhi
Production unclear.
market(65s), University(100s), Courthouse(80s), Hospital(160s)
That is 400 shields total. We need to try and make 400 shields here in 32 turns.
golden age and some workers for mining should do. No time for other things though.

Bombay
8spt, 12 in GA.
University(6), MDI(11), MDI(15), MDI(19), Hospital(33)
Use mined BG when ready, no more mining needed.
University needs micromanagement with the mined BG and forest.

Paris
harbor(2), Libray(4), University(8), Courthouse(11), Copernicus(21), Newtown(31), Hospital(36)

Orleans
This town should stay below size 6 for the comming while and alternatingly produce workers and warriors every turn after growing to a size that sustains 5fpt.


Units are all named MDI. Of course, some of them could be caravels.
I think we should first complete the markets to get rid of that lux slider.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Orleans warriors:
t3, t6, t9, t12, t14, t16.....
Paris upgrading warriors from orleans 3 turns delayed.
t6, t9, t12, t15, t17....

that would make:MDI(5), MDI(9), MDI(13), MDI(16

T3: T_MDI(1)
T5: K_AC, O_MDI (3)
T6: T_MDI(4)
T6: P_MDI (5)
T9: P_MDI, T_MDI, O_MDI (8)
T10: K_AC (9)
T11: B_MDI (10)
T12: P_MDI, T_MDI (12)
T13: O_MDI(13)
T14: Th_MDI, T_MDI (15)
T15: K_AC,, B_MDI, P_MDI (18
T16: T_MDI, O_MDI (20)
T17: Th_MDI, P_MDI (22)
T19: B_MDI, P_MDI (24)
T20: K_AC, Th_MDI (26)
T21: P_MDI (27)
T23: P_MDI (28)
T25: K_AC, P_MDI (30)
T30: K_AC

 

[Andronicus]

Money
We need money for those warrior upgrades, embasssies, unit support and increasing infrastructure
Should we avoid warring civs who can fund our expences?

Diplomacy
Anyone we dow must be eliminated as they would never vote for us
- currently this includes Hittites, Dutch and Vikings.
- does prev Roman war affect Roman attitude to us in future?
- is it too early to consider setting up a potential UN oppenent? My thought was it could be a scientific we have given extra cities to to boost their science (?? replacable parts) as well as ensuring they are large enough to be an obvious choice for elections. Potentials include Persia if we elect not to conquer their lands, Ottomen or one of Greeks or Russians.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We have enough money for the warrior upgrades (Leo's) and some embassies.

We just need to cover upkeep and unit support.

We are already paying unit support, and it is only going to increase in the near future.

Every town we take is worth 15 gpt for us. Since we have unis but no banks, that would translate into 20+ bpt. Taking many towns is our priority.

 

[Andronicus]

Which towns to take
One criteria to measure is their value to us as science farms - the more grasslands the more scientists to support once railed and irrigated
By this criteria the best are
1) Greeks
Sparta 17 grass - by far the best
Athens est 9-12
2) Spanish
Barcelona 6-10
Madrid 7-9
P'yongyang 4-5
3) Portuguese
Lisbon 11
Oporto ?5-8
4) ? English - lots of guessing here
London 2-8
York 8-19
5) Sumeria
Ur 11 (incl a cow, so worth 12)
Sumer 5 (rest overlap)
6) Monguls
Karakorum 9
Ta-Tu 5

Celts, Arabs and Romans are an unknown quantity
Americans and perhaps Incans appear best of the rest

Other criteria obviously are to avoid / minimise eliminating scientifics esp prior to next age change and consideration of effect on our second core (Greek and Arab towns have least effect - although with an increasing number of captures all bar Paris in second core will likely become corrupt)

I suggest
Vikes must go - we dowed them, they are weak against us
? continue onto Americans

Consider our next force going for Portugal then Spain - both good targets for science farms and close for reinforcements

Alternate is to go for Greece but they are scientific - dunno. The rest of that continent doesnt look all that promising.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Indeed.

I think however that grassland should not be our primary priority. It will be quite a while before we have electricity and railroads. So fresh water still is some of a priority. By the time we do have the ability to irrigate and rail everywhere, we will have more land than workers for this job anyway.

In order of importance, i think we have the following priorities.

-Political issues
-The effect on our second core.
-Number of towns we can get in 30 turns.
-Fresh water for the early towns we take.
-grass tiles.

With political issues i mean: Not breaking any deals, targetting the ones we need to take out and avoiding some scientifics.
Number of towns and effect on our second core are difficult. Every town we can get is worth about 20bpt. Every town that hurts our second core costs us 10bpt though. So we can count cities that are not damaging to our second core (the bottom 6 on the list) to be worth double what the others are worth. (on the short term)

Fresh water for the first cities we take can be important. The workers we make in our core could be an ignition for these area's. If we irrigate those area's to 5 fpt, they can grow rapidly and slowly make new workers there to do their own work by the time railroads are possible. We want to get this going before we have electricity.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think americans are gonna be a tough nut to fight.

I also like the idea to go for Portugal and Spain after the vikings. This is nearby, it has fresh water in portugal at least. Hopefully we can bring it to spain.
We need to conquer much more than just those 6 towns though.

PS: Diplomatic victory ETA 90 turns.

 

[Andronicus]

PS: Diplomatic victory ETA 90 turns.

We need 6 more MA techs (actually less as chem part researched) plus min of 11 IA techs (assumes 1) we can trade for all 1st tier techs and we dont get commie or ironclads as freebie 2) that AI researches replacable parts - it will have min of 28 turns probably more, and 3) that we can trade for fission)

5 turn research could be only 85 turns from now, though 90 more likely

 

[Andronicus]

Another option in gaining more towns is sending some vet muskets into Zulu lands - maybe we can get some leaders for rushing buildings in low production cities eg Delhi, whilst gaining a couple more towns with reinforcements. (edit - Zulu towns are at bottom of list and wont affect 2nd core corruption)
Rome and Celts are likewise backwards but have iron for their UUs

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we should capture the southern island and Portugal/Spain first. I prefer to start at the eastern end of the southern island after the Vikings. It isn't very far to sail.

A while later, we end up at the other side. And transport our troops from Russia to our next target.

 

[Abegweit]

Osaka and Teo should finish their unis before starting markets. We have three luxes coming on line and they will survive just fine at 0 luxes. There's also a mistake in the build times at Paris. A library will take two turns and a uni 4-5. We are scientific after all.

 

[killercane]

Well if we leave Rome, Celts, Zulu, and Germany alone, we can dogpile Rome. Celts will surely vote for us. Zulu and Germany are just maybes being aggressive I dont know if this affects anything. Babylon, Sumeria, and Korea would probably would vote for us. That kind of plan would leave everyone else as fair game.

Are we planning on workers out of Constantinople in GA? This seems like a big waste if doing so much conquering. 20 turns of units there and we have a second invasion force. We can work on southern continent and somewhere else. We can then disband these units for 200 shields of improvements in the core, such as Delhi. Of course I do not see where else we get workers from. Edit: Maybe Delhi, Kyoto, and other Indian town can do 2 turn workers? Build workers out of Constantinople after GA? In 40 turns this is 75-80 workers plus captures. Maybe 90 overall.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we should just make the workers from constantinopel. The cost extra 6 commerce we lose out on during the GA is pretty irrelevant compared to the value of the worker join asap. I will think about other options though.

Right about the unis and markets being swiched.
That means the markets are only needed by the time the towns grow past 12. I changed the build to make units first. Posts with unit productions above are edited.

The build times in Paris are pretty correct.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

In GA, Delhi and Bombay could indeed make workers in 2.
Kyoto would need irrigation.

Making 10 workers in Bombay during the GA costs us
-The hospital.
-320 beakers.
That makes 32 beakers and 16 shields each.

Making 10 workers in Delhi during the GA costs us:
-Hospital+market.
-320 beakers.
That makes 32 beakers and 26 shields each.

Making 10 workers in Kyoto after irrigating 2 grass costs us:
-10 MDI.
-400 beakers.
That makes 40 beakers and 40 shields each.

Making 20 workers in Const during GA costs us:
-20 MDI.
-600 beakers.
That makes 30 beakers and 40 shieds each.

Bombay and Delhi make workers cheaper than our capital.
However, Assigning a town to be worker factory also costs us quite a bit. The city first has to produce workers than in the end will be added to itself. This costs 5 turns if the city can produce workers in 1 turn, or 10 turns if it cannot. On top of that, we will have 5 more workers that we pay upkeep for. They are extra workers because they have to be added to the city to get size 12 again as it is now. Of course, they can do some work for those 15 gpt we pay.

Adding 15 gpt (=20bpt+) and 5 turns (5 turns on top of 20 = 25% increase in cost per worker)
Since they make workers in 2, the upkeep cost should be added twice.
Makes the workers from these towns cost 80beakers + 20 shields in Delhi and 80beakers + 32 shields in Bombay

To the workers in Constantinopel we should also add the 20bpt for the worker upkeep, but it has to be added only once per worker since the worker is made in 1 turn instead of 2.
If Const builds workers for 50 turns as planned, the 25% addition from the 5 extra turns costs only 10% here.
Therefore, the total cost in const per worker is 53 beakers and 44 shieds.
Ill also do this for Kyoto to be complete.

End Score:
Const: 53b + 44s
Delhi: 80b + 20s
Bombay: 80b +32s
Kyoto: 90b + 50s

 

[Abegweit]

We're scientific so a lib costs 40 shields and a uni costs 100. In fact it would save a turn to build the court first because by the time that is finished, Paris will be doing 25 spt.

Harbour 2t, Library 2t, Court 4t, Uni 4t
Harbour 2t, Library 2t, Uni 5t, Court 4t

OTOH, I'd rather have the uni first. Maybe the city will go into WLKD day and make 25spt once it grows. This is likely actually.

End Score:
Const: 53b + 44s
Delhi: 80b + 20s
Bombay: 80b +32s

Quite convincing. Only one city is necessary too.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We're scientific so a lib costs 40 shields and a uni costs 100. In fact it would save a turn to build the court first because by the time that is finished, Paris will be doing 25 spt.

Harbour 2t, Library 2t, Court 4t, Uni 4t
Harbour 2t, Library 2t, Uni 5t, Court 4t

OTOH, I'd rather have the uni first. Maybe the city will go into WLKD day and make 25spt once it grows. This is likely actually.Quite convincing. Only one city is necessary too.

Obviously, i aded the turns together. I think growth will provide the uni in 4 and the court in 3. (maybe that is little too optimistic, but we'll see)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

The difference between workers in const or India is shields vs research.

This does require consideration. I will have to try and reason the value of those extra MDI we could make.

Maybe we should also consider having the GA right now. This would provide us units earlier and thus earlier conquest whilst still speeding up the research, maybe with 9 instead of 10 turns though.
Again here, the value of these units is what really matters. This would maybe combine best with MDI's from the capital and workers from Delhi and Bombay during the GA. Our military strength would be very considerable.

The options i will think about are:

GA now, workers from India, MDI from Const.
GA now, MDI from const. Workers later.
GA in 12, wokers from const.
GA in 12, workers from India, MDI from Const.

That will be tomorrow though

 

[Abegweit]

I think growth will provide the uni in 4 and the court in 3. (maybe that is little too optimistic, but we'll see)

I believe you are right. Combo of growth and WLTK day should be enough. If I understand how WLTK works (which is far from certain), you get this for Paris. So long as we get 24/27, it's comfortable because even if the next shield corrupts, we still have enough.

T1 20/24 Harbour
T2 20/24 Harbour
T3 24/27 Lib
T4 24/27 Lib
T5 24/27 Uni
T6 24/27 Uni
T7 27/30 Uni
T8 27/30 Uni
T9 27/30 Court
T10 27/30 Court
T11 29/33 Court

 

[Andronicus]

A point in favour of GA now is workers can be built after GA meaning less time for paying their maintenance.
Both Paris and Con could make 1 turn workers (Paris at size 11 if everything irrigated) and with a few opportunistic ones from elsewhere this would quickly build up our worker numbers just in time for when they are required. Downsides are GA before Paris is size 12 with multipliers and worker factories would have their hospitals delayed (not good for our 2 best science cities). On the plus we would get Cop and Newtons earlier