SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[Trystero]

I think this one is slightly more accurate land. The espionage is a bit off. I did go ahead and add the techs, but don't know how to force them to switch government types.

I was looking at this save (thanks to you and Neil for updating these) and noticed we had 1000 gold in the bank. I've attached a version where I reverted to 0 gold.

 

[neilmeister]

Thanks Trystero.

This time I went the Worker->Warrior->Worker at size 2 approach.

Techs:
Agr(8)->AH(19)->Wheel(27)->BW(41)->Fishing(46)->Pottery(51)->Writing(58)->Aesthetics()

Builds:
Ankh-Morpork: Worker(15)->Warrior(23)->Warrior(part)->Worker at size 2(34)->Finish Warrior(37)->Warrior(41)->Settler(48)->Worker(53)->Granary(60)->Library(64)->Settler()
City 2: WB()

Ankh-Morpork Pop:
Size 2(25) 1 Unhealth
Health resolved when Cows connected
Size 3(40)
Size 4(59)
Size 5(64)

City 2 Unhealth resolved when Rice connected, t59

Units:
Warrior: Explore
Worker: Northern Cow->Scrub(22)->Pasture(26)->Road(28)->Gold->Road(31)->Eastern Cows->Scrub(38)->Pasture(42)->Tile E of AM->Road(46)->Rice->Scrub(52)->Farm(57)->Road(59)->Silk->Chop(63)->Silk->Road()
Worker: Gold->Scrub(39)->Mine(43)->Fish City Spot->Scrub(52)->Cows->Scrub(59)->Pasture(63)->Elephants->Scrub()
Warrior: Explore
Warrior: MP
Settler: Arrives at Fish Cty spot t51, waits for 2 turns, settles(53)
Worker: Gold->Scrub(59)->Mine(63)->City 3 spot->Scrub()


Turn 65:
Pop 6, 29 bpt, -1 gpt, 3 Workers, 3 Warriors, Granary & a Library in AM

Elephants scrubbed in 5 turns.
Settler in 3 turns
City 2 grows to 2 next turns.
WB finished in 3 turns

Ankh-Morpork is identical, to the first run, City 2 is about to expand, but does not have the same number of improvements finished.

 

[neilmeister]

THIS IS THE BEST YET !!! For easy comparison, I have been playing each save through to the same turn: turn 65. It might be good if others do the same!

Also, I detoured via Fishing & Pottery. We need to have Fishing the turn city 2 is founded, and I felt we must also get Pottery, mainly as it shaves 3 turns of Writing anyway, and I don't think we are going to be doing ANY tech trading for quite some time.

Techs:
Agr(8)->AH(19)->Wheel(27)->BW(42)->Fishing(45)->Pottery(50)->Writing(57)->Aesthetics()

Builds:
Ankh-Morpork: Worker(15)->Worker(29)->Warrior(33)->Warrior(38)->Warrior(part)->Worker(45)->Settler(52)->Finish Warrior(53)->Granary(60)->Library(63)->Settler
City 2: WB(61)->Warrior() this Warrior should have been another WB, to connect the Clams.

Ankh-Morpork Pop:
Size 2(35)
Size 3(40)
Size 4(58)
Give gold to City 2 as soon as it is founded on t53
Give gold back to AS as soon as Fish is online t62
Size 5(63)

Units:
Worker: Northern Cow->Scrub->Pasture(26)->Road(28)->Eastern Cows->Scrub(35)->Pasture(39)->East of City->Road(42)->Rice->Scrub(49)->Farm(54)->Road(56)->Forested Silk->Chop(60)->Farm()
Worker: Gold->Road(31)->Scrub(37)->Mine(41)->Gold->Road(44)->Scrub(50)->Mine(54)->Elephants->Scrub(63)->Camp()
Warrior: Explore
Warrior: Explore
Worker: Fish City spot->Scrub(52)->Cows above city 2->Scrub(59)->Pasture(63)->Elephants(Road)
Settler: Go to fish city spot, settle(53)
Warrior: MP
WB: Fish(62)

Turn 65:
Pop 6, 31 bpt, -1 gpt, 3 Workers, 3 Warriors, Granary & a Library in AM

Elephants Camped & Roaded next turn.
Settler in 3 turns.
City 2 grows to 2 in 2 turns. Fish & Cows both finished.
Silk farmed.
Aesthetics in 6 turns.

Spoiler :

 

[drlake]

I'm wondering if it makes sense to move the Rice/Silk city 1W, to cut down on overlap? It'll still be coastal, and it can still work the rice and the western silk right away.

 

[neilmeister]

Its debatable. None of the cities will have more population than tiles for thousands of years. But in the meantime, the high overlap allows cities to swap tiles easily (very handy) and it will reduce the maintenance costs as well.

It is just a placeholder for now, as all of the known resources are to the east of the city 3 centre. Who knows what other resources will appear to the West.

I have tried a few variants cutting out BW, and they SUCK !!!
Now I will cut out Pottery, and see how that goes. EDIT> They also SUCK. AM produces a Library and then runs out of things to produce while it is still pop 4. I think we should get it to pop5, so that it can work 2 Cows, 2 Gold & Rice, before it starts to crank more Settlers/Workers. Otherwise the 2nd Gold is wasted.

But, I can't seem to improve on my optimum worker moves. Upto turn 56, this is the best I can come up with.

Worker 1: Northern Cow->Scrub->Pasture(26)->Road(28)->Eastern Cows->Scrub(35)->Pasture(39)->East of AM->Road(42)->Rice->Scrub(49)->Farm(54)->Road(56)
Worker 2: Gold->Road(31)->Scrub(37)->Mine(41)->Gold->Road(44)->Scrub(50)->Mine(54)->Elephants->Scrub()
Worker 3: Fish City spot->Scrub(52)->Cows->Scrub()

City 2 settled on turn 53, working the Gold where the mine is finished the next turn.


I am spent guys, anything I change makes my best game worse!!!!!

 

[drlake]

BTW, while I understand the reasoning behind it, aren't we better off not chopping that forest for the moment? We get 1F 1C (if we irrigate it) and lose 1H, so a minimal gain, and we lose one of our few forests. Seems more prudent to leave it there until we either need the chop or we have calendar.

 

[neilmeister]

I know what you mean, and it is certainly a good question.

Chopping the forest lets us get the Granary & Library out in AM, the same turn it hits pop 5. This means that we can build settlers/workers while working the 2 Cows, 2 Gold & Rice.

With 2 Gold, the Library makes a big difference to the science output.

So, if we have to chop a forest to achieve this, which one should we chop. The sugar seemed the best to me, as Farming it then allows City 3 to have another food square, with 2 commerce thrown in. Currently, it will only have the non-irrigated Rice.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I was looking at this save (thanks to you and Neil for updating these) and noticed we had 1000 gold in the bank. I've attached a version where I reverted to 0 gold.

Drat, that was supposed to be 1000 gold for Stalin, so he could maintain his army.

 

[drlake]

I know what you mean, and it is certainly a good question.

Chopping the forest lets us get the Granary & Library out in AM, the same turn it hits pop 5. This means that we can build settlers/workers while working the 2 Cows, 2 Gold & Rice.

With 2 Gold, the Library makes a big difference to the science output.

So, if we have to chop a forest to achieve this, which one should we chop. The sugar seemed the best to me, as Farming it then allows City 3 to have another food square, with 2 commerce thrown in. Currently, it will only have the non-irrigated Rice.

We get the library and granary out what, 3 turns earlier as a result? 30 hammers for the chop, while our city production is 12 per turn with two gold, two cows, and the forested silk under production. That hardly seems like something we have to do, especially given the apparent scarcity of forests on this map.

I think you're missing the other silk tile, which also has freshwater access and can be irrigated for City 3. It doesn't "need" both silk tiles for food, assuming it can even work both (which depends on what we find farther west, and where we put it).

 

[ChrisShaffer]

If we are going to chop, I'd rather wait until we have mathematics.

I do like the plan - we are going to need a LOT of workers. Two right away on this map isn't bad.

 

[drlake]

If we are going to chop, I'd rather wait until we have mathematics.

I do like the plan - we are going to need a LOT of workers. Two right away on this map isn't bad.

Yes, I'm thinking this map is going to require 2-3 workers per city rather than the 1.5 rule of thumb to succeed. The faster we scrub, the better off we'll be.

 

[neilmeister]

Chopping is by no means necessary. It is just something I did to time our growth to pop 5 with starting to build units that stop our growth. I only chopped 1 forest, I'm not advocating wholesale chopping.

You rightly point out that it only saves us 3 turns. Finishing Library & Granary 3 turns earlier means another worker, or several workers, and then settler out 3 turns earlier.

But I would counter that with what are we going to save this forest for? If we are saving it for a wonder, then we will get the wonder 3 turns earlier. I think I would rather have another city 3 turns earlier.


2 Workers straight up seemed logical, once I thought about it. We don't need a Warrior/Scout, at all, and we can't build anything else that early (except for a recycling centre ).
A bit of testing seemed to vindicate this approach. It also means that there are very few turns when any population is working a non improved square.

EDIT: And this is by no means 'the plan', its just the best I could do. I am the first to admit that every time I tried, I ended up with only minor variations on it. So, by all means, please try different things. I am stuck in a rut so to speak.

 

[drlake]

I'm actually not worried so much about chopping wonders, though it might matter in a race. I'm thinking about the health benefits of forest, as well as the increased chance of forest spread once we scrub more of the land if we leave the forests as intact as possible. That's also a reason to scrub but not improve tiles we don't need. Normally I wouldn't worry about it, but this game isn't exactly normal.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I'm actually not worried so much about chopping wonders, though it might matter in a race. I'm thinking about the health benefits of forest, as well as the increased chance of forest spread once we scrub more of the land if we leave the forests as intact as possible. That's also a reason to scrub but not improve tiles we don't need. Normally I wouldn't worry about it, but this game isn't exactly normal.

Well on the forest spread, we'll probably be doing as much work as we can on the BFC of the Cap at least, so I wouldn't worry too much on that score. And on chopping out a wonder the only early wonders I coud see us possibly going for are the Parthenon (extra GPs) and the GLib (extra science), so one chop will not hurt that, too much (i.e. if we lose it will probably be because we're too slow or to a GE).
I will run a few tests of my own as well, but it seems the worker, worker start is strong especially on the variant. If we can refine our start or find a stronger one all the better.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I did a slightly different worker micro, accepted unhealthiness in city 2 while building the workboat using the mined gold, and emphasized using the forested silk instead of unpastured 3 food cow and/or 4 food rice tiles tiles in A-M, and got nearly the same result as Neil without chopping.

Spoiler :

We are, however, at the point that the early stages through turn 20 seem set, so perhaps Brian could post a detailed plan for the next 17 turns, wait for comment, and then play?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

By the way, we get 50% hammer discount on settlers (hammer only, not food). Have we considered revolting to slavery and using the whip to get the settlers out faster? I don't think this would be ideal, since we have so many great tiles to work, but it's worth thinking about.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Turn 65:
Pop 6, 31 bpt, -1 gpt, 3 Workers, 3 Warriors, Granary & a Library in AM

OK, I figured out one of the ways Neil seems to always do better on his population than everyone else. When he says Pop 6 here, he means A-M is pop 5 + fish city is pop 1 = total pop 6.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Ok my plan is get AG>AH which will take me up to turn 19 as regards techs. I'm not sure what to start then, I favour BW slightly (my paranoia speaking) while the team seems to favour the Wheel.

A-M will be worker>worker so5 turns into the 2nd worker, and no pop growth. Micro will be stay on forested silk (best unimproved tile).

The worker will go to the northern cow, to scrub, pasture and road to a gold (ok I'll only get half the scrub done in 20 turns, but it's the plan).

Otherwise I cannot see anything I can do differently. Early game is often hit end turn>check micro>hit end turn.

 

[drlake]

Go for TW. We need to hook up the health resources asap, and if we need to be building Axes by turn 30ish we're probably done anyway.

 

[Trystero]

A few quick notes (before I start a Monday of meetings):

1. Neil's arguments for worker > worker are convincing. That approach has my vote.

2. I would tech Ag > AH > The Wheel

3. I would try to avoid chopping.