SGOTM 12 - Team Zoe

[ThERat]

Pre-Turn
fire up CA2 to check on beakers
currently we make 438, for metal we would need 515 to get it in 5 (1560). With Newton this could be achievable
electricity is 5600 , sci methods 4000, so we are looking at 11 and 7-8 turns here.
industrialization is 4800, another 8-9 turns

thus, this would mean 3+5+11+8+9 = 36 turns for the prebuild
Foot Print is currently making only 14spt, this would be 43 turns
but it does not have a uni and we need that for a proper research...
so, we have to come back to the timing of the prebuild later on

as for the war, we have the army in front of the last portugese city, but it's size 1 and no border expansion
I rather we wait for it to go pop 2 or expand

Greece and Russia have cash, sell Greece astro for 17gpt and 63 gold
will wait with Russia until they have more cash as we can only sell ToG

whip a library for pop 1 in carthage so we can start to produce workers there
swap bunny shrink from aqueduct to uni, we won't get pop 7 for a long time there

I feel we need more defenders really, so Kyoto will go for 4 turn muskets for now and insert workers in between since it can't grow anyway

IT wow big news as Persia destroys Dutch

1.560AD
Barcelona still size 1, thus leave it alone
sell Persia a lux for 32 gold, maybe we can mend relations

2.570AD
we get 2 borders expansions in those Portugese cites, 2 of their archers are around for leader fodder
sell ToG for 11 gpt and 54gold to Russia
science reduced to 60%

IT Portugese land 2 units next to Kyoto
we get magnetism, check via big picture whether anyone has metal
Cat eye gets a uni and we get Newton, capital goes for 4 turn knights as we want to maximize commerce

3. 580AD
take out one Portugese units
America actually has some money and we won't fight them for some time, I guess
sell them theology for 10gpt and 40gold
Arabia gets ToG for 8gpt and 40 gold

upgrade 2 caravels

we want 515 beakers of science, this requires shield sacrifice
MM some, but it still shows 6 turns, I guess with the uni in our FP city, it should drop to 5 turns in the end

IT defeat that MDI with musket at Kyoto and Portugese land 2 unit next to Delhi

4.590AD
our defense are clearly too thin, retreat our knight against spear and pull in another knight
France has plenty of cash, sell the magnetism for 46gpt and 133 gold

IT archer dies at Delhi and wounded spear moves

5. 600AD
great news as Barca has grown to pop 2, time to take it out

we gain 2 slaves

manage to get metal down to 3 turns now
sell ToG to Babs for 10gpt and 44 gold

land 6 units on a mountain near Ulundi

Foot print starts on palace with 13spt now

6.610AD
move on hill next to Ulundi, upgrade another caravel near Korea

IT hmm, no attacks by Zulu?
Paris finishes Smiths as well

7.620AD
take out 4 Impis while losing 2 units and there are still impis left..that did not work out
remaining units flee to the mountain

time to prepare mentally for the big IA slingshot...get a coffee first

IT we get metal and enter the IA
go for the big picture

in order to get the most of it, sell France metal for 15gpt and 20 gold
start selling/gifting techs
Greece gets nationalism
Germany gets medicine, thats great since we got so many optional techs for them
Persia gets steam, so far so good
Babs get steam
Russia nationalism
Ottoman medicine

go back to Germans

Greece gives us nationalism for 3 techs, so far everything is great

now hold the breath, press enter

IT get the iron works message
check th city build, we can't build ironclads nor hospitals... chances increase to 2/5 for a slingshot

8.630AD
oh no...we got fascism

I actually want France, Persia and Arabia to go for industrialization, while we go for electricity
thus make sure they all have steam

we have 2 cities for the IW but I guess our capital will be the one building it

electricity needs 11 turns for now...we are quite a few beakers away from 10 turns, thus, go for more shields and growth again
we are also still locked in an agreement for 6 turns with Korea, before our army can start fighting there

upgrade a musket for 60gold to rifle

IT Persia starts Magellan, idiots!!!

9.640AD
get navigation from Persia for economics and 2 luxes
also get a WM

IT a lux deal is up, decide to sell France nationalism for 2 luxes and a little cash
I do hope that they are researching industrialization by now
another big deal with Arabia is up, give them navigation for 14gpt and furs

10.650AD
we have 4 more turns then we can attack Korea

I strongly suggest to build up forces, currently we have average forces compared to Persia
let's try and use the 9 remaining turns to get electricity to build up infra and growth to gain enough beakers that we can do sci methods in 7 turns

we could theoretically make peace with Zulu and go after England. We can ship the Korean knight army out and sail towards London. I am sure we can deal with Korea with the current forces there, we only need to take Seoul anyway

our offensive action in Zululand is pretty lame as we have 4 units healing there
Once we take out one Korean city, we should shift units towards England I feel. We don't have the troops to split too much

Our troops in Korea, feel free to ship the army over the England. If we do so, I would declare on them now
as you can see, we make quite some cash and that will help us keep up the research at 100% for a long time. Do spend wisely

 

[zerksees]

Smart you are up

 

[sanabas]

thanks Sanabas for the thoughts. You are right, we simply need to time it right. We should try and finish it in an IT after we get a tech, be it sci methods or industialization.

I was just hoping that someone there might research industrialization for us while we go for electricity and sci methods...

I will check how many turns we need for the ToE

We actually want to time it so that we have 1 turn left to research something, and one turn left to build ToE. Research is calculated before production, remember.

Set looks good, sucks we got fascism though.

I assume we're RRing the capital, building IWorks, factory & plant there. Only problem with that is that we can't prebuild in the capital, as there'll be nothing available. Assuming we get one more MGL between sometime in the not too distant future, I would save it, and rush a palace in the city closest to our capital, so we can then use the capital for the UN prebuild. Otherwise we need to get one of the other cities up to a high spt number.

 

[Whomp]

Nice set Rat. We can't catch a break on the tech front.

If the capital is our iron works site then what Sanabas is suggesting makes a ton of sense.

I'd take out England and Korea next. Impis retreat is a pita.

 

[zerksees]

Nice work ThERat. Are we under 100 turns yet? Getting core cities up above size 12 should help research – just need a trading partner to research sanitation.

Since fascism is worthless we should sell it or give it away to keep the others from researching it!

Landmass – inhabitants
#1 – Byz – The Zoo
#2 – Byz (former Aztec)
#3 – Byz (former Indian), Korea
#4 – Byz (former Egypt), Persia, Babs
#5 – Rome
#6 – Celts
#7 – France, American
#8 – Byz (former Carthage), Arab, Greek, Russian
#9 – Zulu, German
#10 – Ottoman
#11 – Sumeria, England
Dead: Aztec, Japan, India, Maya, Inca, Egypt, Hittite, China, Iro, Mongols, Carthage, Vikings, Spain, Dutch, Portugal

Maybe it is time to go after Rome. We have an army to hide under and we can put rifles in the city we take until we take the second one. We could get some shields from Roman cities and possibly some science to help with the late IA techs. If we wait too much longer we might as well skip it.

The others: Celts, England and Zulu are only going to net future science farms. America will be fodder for France when the time comes. Arabs and France have become defacto trading partners and the rest are scientific.

Otherwise we need to get one of the other cities up to a high spt number.

Maybe we could start another pre-build elsewhere now? Military academy or something then switch to palace once the ToE can be built?

 

[ThERat]

the palace is currently only 600 shields, this might go up if we acquire more cities. Thus, currently we need to time the prebuild and techs properly.

We have 9 turns for electricity, 7 for sci methods (needs some proper MM for that). Industrialization (4800) is around 8-9 turns.

The palace was started for 5 turns now and should have accumulated around 65-70shields.

I would try and MM the palace that we will get to 600 shields before we get industrialization. If we did everything well, the palace will jump to 800 shields and we will safely get ToE the same intertunr as we get industrialization, simply go into the big picture and change palace to ToE.

As for the UN, does it have 800 shields or 1000 shields? If it is 800 shields, we should be safe with a palace prebuild. I am not too much in favor of a palace jump for the mere reason of corruption. Our capital can make up to 180 beakers a turn due to the commerce from SoZ. No other city comes even close to that...

 

[ThERat]

update on our tech plan

1. chemistry - 7 turns
2. physics - 7 turns
3. ToG - 7 turns
4. Magnetism - 8 turns
5. Metal - 5 turns

We entered IA with magnetism, gift all needed techs to the Sci Civs and with the help of optional techs acquire nationalism/steam/medicine. Got fascism for that

6. Electricity (5600) - currently 9 of 11 turns left
7. Sci methods (4000) ~ 7 turns
8. Industrialization (4800) ~ 8-9 turn (maybe helped out by the AI)

time a prebuild in the FP city to net ToE and AT/electronics at the same IT as getting industrialization

9. Corporation (4000) ~ 7 turns
10. Steel (5600) ~ 9 turns
11. Refining (6400) ~ 10 turns
12. Combustion (6400) ~ 9-10 turns
13. Rep Parts (5600) - hopefully done by AI
14. Mass production (5600) ~ 9 turns
15. Motorized Transportation (5600) ~ 9 turns
16. Flight (7200) - 11 turns (maybe done by AI)

That's a total estimate of 81 turns left assuming that we only get rep parts from the AI.

we are currently able to make 530-550 beaker a turn
you can see that for sci methods we need > 560 beakers for 7 turns etc etc
for steel we would need > 625 beakers to make it in 9
for flight in 11 we need > 650 beakers

If the UN is 800 shields, we need to start a prebuild in our FP city the correct time, Bombay should be able to make ~ 60spt with a factory/power plant, thus we need to start maybe 15 turns before flight is done...we can plan that later

 

[ThERat]

Maybe we should do what zerksees suggested and give Persia/France/Arabia all techs we know, that they do research something useful. We are currently making a lot of money that we should not spend and thus, we could afford a while without great deals. maybe we shouldn't even ask them for any gpt, but engage them in wars as much as possible so their unit count stays low. We can use those techs to get them into war. i would maybe do that right now, ask Persia to fight Rome and France to attack America once our deals with America are over

France -> Celts -> America
Persia -> Romans (to eat up the initial mountain of units) -> Zulu

 

[zerksees]

Keeping the unit counts low is good. Not sure how effective Persia will be with the Romans but it can't hurt. Again good work on the tech analysis ThERat.

I'm all for selling or gifting our techs to the big three: France, Persia and Arabs. We are researching techs pretty fast so we'll gain a tech advantage pretty quickly. If an AI has a tech we don't then soon after we'll have it. Do all three even know each other yet? Maybe Joan will sell some wool to the others.

If those AI are giving gpt maybe we should take some so we don't have to run a deficit, but maybe not take all the AI gpt. At least we know we won't be researching useless techs. Taking that a step further we should make sure they are full of luxuries so they can cut the lux slider as well.

81 turns to go. How much further should we go with conquest - other than fake wars?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Persia against Rome is a no risk deal, I have nothing against it. I'd like to keep the idea floating of gifting everything we reasonably can to the Dutch so that they can put up a resistance as best they could against Persia the next time we go against them.

We'll have to crush Persia sooner than later; they opened the ballpark, we need to close it. I wouldn't trust them to keep allied with us while we are "together" on Roman soil, even.

 

[sanabas]

Isn't UN 1000 shields? So we might be stuck with waiting a few turns after we get fission before we can finish the UN.

If we do jump the palce, I'd save it until as late as possible, i.e. 6-8 turns before getting flight, assuming we're up over 100 spt in the capital. Minimal impact on the commerce numbers, especially as we'd jump the palace right next door. Then it's only 2 turns after getting Fission to get the UN, assuming we're still at an 800 shield palace pre-build.

U Suff won't last, but Hoover should, especially if we don't give away Atomic & Electronics until the last minute. Actually, never mind, just looked at the opening screenie, no river in the capital, so no Hoover prebuild.

 

[ThERat]

I think I too much, I counted wrongly, it's still 89 turns for the techs...if only those clowns would research a tech for us for a change...they have not exactly been very helpful. IIRC the only tech we gained was invention in the MA...very lousy indeed...

Beorn also too much

I'd like to keep the idea floating of gifting everything we reasonably can to the Dutch so that they can put up a resistance as best they could against Persia the next time we go against them.

The Dutch have been destroyed by the Persians on the first IT in my set

The UN is indeed 1000shields, I checked the war academy here. Does anyone know how many cities we need so that our palace prebuild goes up to that amount? Currently it's 600shields, is there any formula?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I think the palace jump is a bad idea. With the tiles and wonders in there we can't come close to match our current beaker output with a jump.

The palace costs us 600 shields right now and we'll need some serious city count increase if we are to make that higher.

Palace cost: long story short, we have over our OCN of cities (=> palace cost 600) but we'll need 2*OCN (UP TO twice what we have) for 1000 shields.

We have 20 cities.
Persia: 8 -1 = 7
Arabia: 6
Celts: 2
Zulu: 2
English: 2
Korea: 2 -1 = 1
Total 20 more. Sounds like we have work to do. If we keep Arabia in the dark as much as possible we might have an easier time dealing with them. Another option is to skim one city off of as many of them as we can.

Note that we may be good to go after we have captured 18 more - and there are many SCI AI we can skim down to one city. We will want to keep as many friends as possible though. We also might want to kill France, later on in the game, for their 4 cities. Either way, we'll need to increase our number of cities drastically by the end of this all. Or we will have to concede a few turns.

... and that even was a cross-post, mr Rat

A shame about the dutch, they speak all funny.

 

[ThERat]

good analysis, I think it said:

palace 600 shields if 6/6 OCN...then
1000 shields for 10/6 OCN, not twice

If we assume that maybe 18 cities were enough for OCN, then we would need 10/6 * 18 = 30 cities only...not 40
(we only need to check the save before BeF turn whether we had 600 shields for the palace already)


We should be able to check that once we get a jump to 800 shields (hey, i have never seen odd shields like 500/700).

30 would mean 10 more cities.

Maybe
Korea 1, England 2, Zulu 2, Rome 2, Celts 2 and finally Germany/Sumer/America or Persia 1.

Doesn't sound too scary. Let's start with Korea and England, then after Persia has worn down Rome, we get them.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Completely right, I didn't bother to think it out at 3 am but you doing it prompted me to do the maths. Right now the worst case scenario is us needing 10 towns.

I say we take out Persia. Once they are dead we'll have a very very easy time cruising our way around the continents making space for all our friends the SCI civs. I was stiff on us getting a tier 2 tech because it could have paid off big time, but as it stands we barely need one AI (or ourselves!) to come up with Fission and the odds we don't manage that are about 1/10 with (just) Persia dead. We can stay close friends with the rest of them.

This also ensures France stays big and our most likely number one contender. We start a war with them late in the industrial age and play King of the Hill: we hold a defensive position for a while, just so their military power decreases and we can drag everyone we know into war against them at a cost we can handle.

Replace "France" by "Arabia" if it applies.

This scenario lets us be friends with every SCI AI, which we want to keep around until the end. It gives us enough leeway to not be against the wall if ever France or Arabia was to declare on us and steal a few towns overnight and scrap our prebuild down to 8 or 900 shields max: we'd have a few spare ones in Zululand and England.

 

[ThERat]

If we decide to take out Persia (I also like that idea), then we should get them to sign against Rome immediately so that they start to burn their units> However, we will be fighting riflemen later on, we need to be aware of that.

once we have taken out Rome (let Persia burn their units), we can then start a war together with France and Babylon against them. We don't need backstabbing there.

 

[zerksees]

We are going to research almost all the IA techs ourselves - would an SGL be too much to ask? I know we can't bank on it but what are the chances?

 

[Smart]

I'll look at it more closely today, please count this as got it.

 

[sanabas]

We are going to research almost all the IA techs ourselves - would an SGL be too much to ask? I know we can't bank on it but what are the chances?

Zero. SGLs are turned off for GOTM. Getting an early one can be gamebreaking, games shouldn't turn on a 5% chance event.

 

[zerksees]

Zero. SGLs are turned off for GOTM.

Thanks. My GOTM newbie status shows through.