SGOTM 12 - Xteam

:thanx:

He dropped 40 Tactical Nukes! :eek:
Must be how he created all the fallout without having to address each tile?
Are you sure he dropped 40 nukes? In this case wouldn't the AI have stacked -2 "you have nuked us" for each nuke? Maybe the repeated entries in the log, are due to loading the game several times, like there several lines saying "Gandhi refuses to talk".
 
Are you sure he dropped 40 nukes? In this case wouldn't the AI have stacked -2 "you have nuked us" for each nuke? Maybe the repeated entries in the log, are due to loading the game several times, like there several lines saying "Gandhi refuses to talk".
Wouldn't you only get the "You nuked us" if the nuke lands within your cultural boundaries? If he pre-built the cities and then nuked around them, greater than 2 tiles from borders? I'll find out tonight.
 
Wouldn't you only get the "You nuked us" if the nuke lands within your cultural boundaries? If he pre-built the cities and then nuked around them, greater than 2 tiles from borders? I'll find out tonight.
Yes, this is how it works. You get -2 only if it lands within or adjacent to the AI borders.

The updated save is below. The nukes killed the Mech Inf and Modern Armor that were in the game. I got a bit goofy and gave Stalin Fission and four or five Tactical Nukes along with two Long Bows in his capital. Let's see if he uses them on us? If this interferes with our evaluation of the start area, I will take them out so we can continue.
 

Attachments

The updated save is below. The nukes killed the Mech Inf and Modern Armor that were in the game. I got a bit goofy and gave Stalin Fission and four or five Tactical Nukes along with two Long Bows in his capital. Let's see if he uses them on us? If this interferes with our evaluation of the start area, I will take them out so we can continue.

I hope to have some time to play with this today. I'll see how I go...

Edit: Looks like we're yo top 100 posts before a roster is even posted, never mind anyone thinks about playing the real save...
 
I hope to have some time to play with this today. I'll see how I go...

Edit: Looks like we're yo top 100 posts before a roster is even posted, never mind anyone thinks about playing the real save...
In case you get a chance to play and those tac nukes start to rain down on you, the save below has no units in any AI city so you can better have time to evaluate the start. I don't want anyone getting frustrated because they have a sequence worked out and suddenly Stalin starts dropping Tac Nukes on them... :rolleyes:
 

Attachments

Before the new pre-game carnage save went up, I played the old one a bit with a new concept: going for a religion for happiness, in the face of all of the WW (that assumes it is enough to be a problem ... if not, then ignore this)

Settled NNE (only -3 health from fallout ... in this game more coastal tiles are better, at least at the start), researched fishing first (to be able to work the unimproved seafood for faster research), and completed the worker before starting workboat, so it could start scrubbing away the unhealth. Then went myst and poly, founding hindu.

We might find that religon and temples are critical for happiness (as are the gold mines with roads) if we are hemmed in by WW and fallout unhealth.

dV

 

Attachments

I’ve had a play around with a test save. I think it’s the one I downloaded from one of Lief’s posts – it’s a bit hard to remember with the various test saves that have been posted. I noticed WW at the beginning a lot higher in this test file than the real save – we’re looking at 118 and 140 with various people in this one instead of 97 with each. I notice also that tech trading is not allowed with Gandhi like it is in the real save. This might make a difference because it would allow earlier peace with Gandhi quite possibly, and maybe a tech benefit thereafter.

I played a couple of different starting spots but I think the NNE is best. In that one, I opened very similar to Leif’s last log, worker til fishing, then WBoat/Bworking back to worker.

I put archery in early so that I could build archers rather than warriors fearing military interference, though as it happens I didn’t get any. I saw some of Stailin’s archers, but they didn’t attack, Maybe because I had archers defending? I built no warriors at all.

Didn’t get interference from Stalin by sea either, and am studying sailing when I stopped playing. I wonder if sailing might be useful earlier. Not sure where to put it in though.

Tech order I used was Fishing, BW, AH, archery, wheel, pottery, writing, Agric, sailing (sailing still 5 turns away at 1200BC) I had 3 cities settled by 1720BC and two workers working by 1360BC with a third worker nearly finished at 1200BC. Quite similar to the last log Lief posted except that I got archery in there. The gold mine once completed and roaded is actually a big deal. Having both cows pastured paid well too. The fish is a good early tile once the first workboat is built and I like having it usable by either Moscow or Novgorod.

I used BW for slavery with the settlers and workers, but left the forests all alone. I might have done better to use some worker turns chopping another worker instead of pasturing the second cows perhaps. Particularly if I’d done that straight after completing the gold mine, that might have advanced me by a few turns.

I’m not sure what I proved except that NNE starting spot is hard to beat and that early archery gives some feeling of security! We need to get workers out quick and I think fishing is vital as early as possible given that so many land tiles are spoiled by fallout. In this save there’s not really much point going beyond three cities before really spamming workers – I’d be whipping a couple more quite soon if I continued with this save. My basic strategy with whipping was growing Moscow to size 4 ASAP, whipping a settler or worker for 2 pop, then putting out archers in between while it grew back to size 4 (that was after workboats had already been produced). Oh – and the WW unhappies are really not a problem. I never saw more than one unhappy from WW.

Here’s some notes I made from the game I played settling NNE of starting spot, for what they’re worth. The other spots I tried I didn’t do as well.

3960BC – settle Moscow NNE of starting position, we have 1 unhealth but only 1 unhappy from WW. Start worker, working only available tile – the forest S of Moscow, research fishing
3800BC – DeGaulle is willing to talk but we can’t pay enough for peace
3720BC – Gandhi ditto
3680BC – everyone else except Roosevelt Ditto, fishing finished, start BW. Continue using forest for the hammer to get WB quicker, which I now switch to.
3600BC – Now Roosevelt joins the crowd willing to talk but demanding more than we can pay for peace.
3520BC – Hinduism founded, Gandhi adopts Hinduism. WW seems to be steadily dropping with everyone. Is this what is supposed to happen??
3240BC – Buddhism founded, De Gaulle adopts Buddhism
3080BC – BW finished, start AH, Workboat finished, back to worker, revolt to slavery, send WB to fish (since they give one more food than clams)
3040BC – set up nets on the fish, swap to using that tile, Moscow healthy again
2800BC – Churchill adopts slavery
2720BC – Worker complete, start another WB, WW unhappy has disappeared in Moscow
2680BC – start scrubbing fallout on cow grassland to west of Moscow
2640BC – Moscow to size 2, unhealthy again, 1 WW unhappy again, but WW numbers still decreasing
2600BC – finish AH, start archery
2520BC – Stalin adopts slavery
2440BC – start pasturing cows, Moscow to size 3. Use 2 forest besides fish to get WB done quicker, will switch to cow tile when pasture finished
2400BC – finish archery, start on wheel
2320BC – Cow pasture completed
2280BC – Gandhi founds Bombay, move worker to gold plains hill
2240BC – WB completes, put nets on clams, start scrubbing fallout on gold hill, start archer while waiting one turn for Moscow to grow to size 4
2200BC – Moscow size 4 with 1 unhappy citizen – 1 unhappy from WW, 1 from no military protection, swap build to settler
2160BC – Churchill founds York, whip settler for 2 pop
2120BC – Wheel finished, start pottery
2080BC – Roosevelt adopts slavery
2000BC – start gold mine, Moscow to size 3
1960BC – archer completes, start another archer, settle St. Pete on plains hill to south, start worker using silk. Everyone is now willing to offer peace if we give them St. Pete. I don’t.
1920BC – Roosevelt founds New York
1880BC – Moscow to size 4, start a settler, gold mine completed, De Gaulle founds Orleans
1840BC – Pottery Completed, start Writing, whip settler for 2 pop, start roading gold mine
1760BC – move worker to eastern cows
1720BC – Gandhi founds third city, Mao founds second city, start scrubbing fallout on eastern cows, found Novgorod NNW of copper near Stalin’s border (archer accompanied settler) Novgorod uses fish Moscow has been using, Moscow uses clams instead
1680BC – Archer -> Archer in Moscow
1640BC – Stalin WB spotted to the north
1560BC – Churchill founds third city, Stalin WB has disappeared
1520BC – Moscow Archer -> Archer
1480BC – Finish writing start Agriculture, start pasturing eastern cows.
1440BC – Moscow to size 4, start worker
1400BC – Whip worker for 2 pop in Moscow
1320BC – Moscow Archer -> Granary, Novgorod to size 3
1280BC – Agric finished, start sailing (going to need some galleys soon, methinks)
1200BC – stopped playing, WW has dropped to really small levels now…?

Here's a shot of the starting area at 1200BC:

At 1200BC.JPG
 
I’m not sure what I proved except that NNE starting spot is hard to beat and that early archery gives some feeling of security! We need to get workers out quick and I think fishing is vital as early as possible given that so many land tiles are spoiled by fallout. In this save there’s not really much point going beyond three cities before really spamming workers – I’d be whipping a couple more quite soon if I continued with this save. My basic strategy with whipping was growing Moscow to size 4 ASAP, whipping a settler or worker for 2 pop, then putting out archers in between while it grew back to size 4 (that was after workboats had already been produced). Oh – and the WW unhappies are really not a problem. I never saw more than one unhappy from WW.
I think you proved that we seem to be on the right track going NNE? Also, with worse WW than the real save, that it wasn't too difficult to cope with. :thumbsup:

Need to see how others feel about the NNE start location and, if we pretty much agree on this start location, find an optimal sequence to run for the first turn set?

Meanwhile, I'll :think: a bit about roster. :coffee:
:)
 
@C63 Nice job with the numbers there :goodjob:

I have never used that info screen before but it seems quite useful at times. :)

We know there is an AI with 230000, Stalin is obviously the one, and since he built the Manhattan Project he could have Fission (8000), maybe also Rocketry (10000) for the ICBM's. So that, plus starting techs makes 28000, the remaining 202000 could be 5 ICBM's plus 1 galley.
5 ICBM's and 1 galley :confused: The balance is a bit off here!?

If he has Rocketry but not Fission the remaining 210000 could be 7 Tactical Nukes (30000 each) ?? :crazyeye:


From the article:
Land Area- The total number of land squares within your borders * 1000. Coast and Ocean tiles are not counted.

From our land area info (AI max 8000 points) I conclude that all AI built their capital on the coast?? Let's go sailing! :D
 
The war weariness shown as a mouseover in BTS is really different from the number forecasted by the formula mentioned in the war academy article I quoted before. From Leif's test save we can conclude that each time we nuke an enemy the WW goes up by 22 (118 to 140). If we wanted to replicate the WW from the real save to the test save, we could just nuke the enemies once, instead of 2 or 3 times as Leif did - I think the WW would stay at 96, quite close to real save's 97. That way the diplo minuses would also be closer to real save.

Another effect from the changes in WW is that the :mad: is lower than my earlier estimates. However, it is expected that it goes down as turns pass, if no more combat takes place.

If we are really interested in getting a finer match, we should remove the techs Griff gave to the AI (like Constitution to Gandhi and whatnot), giving Alpha to Gandhi and maybe Fission to Stalin. BTW, I agree with MP, getting peace with Gandhi for a tech and later tech trades thereafter should be the way to go.

About Stalin's units, it is really a wild guess - but Erkon mentioned no biological unit had survived (no Longbows then) and even mentioned a workboat as an example of possible survivor, so I think a galley is a guess as good as anything else. The ICBM's (or Tac Nukes) wouldn't be enough to completely destroy us, as a Modern Armor would.
 
I played Leif's nuked save for 80 turns. Settled NNE again. I'm thinking that may be the best spot (although still haven't tried settling in place). All those water tiles may not be too bad, if we consider trying to build The Colossus and the Moai Statues in this city. Maybe The Great Lighthouse as well, although as previously pointed out, it's benefits may not be so good if we cannot make Peace Treaty by the time we're ready to build it.

Decided to complete a Worker first, to get a fast start on scrubbing Fallout, so research Animal Husbandry first, then Fishing. Learned both techs with 1 turn remaining on Worker build. After Worker, I built two Work Boats for the Fish & Clams.

Research Path...
  • Animal Husbandry
  • Fishing
  • The Wheel (to build road on Pasture for :health: benefit)
  • Archery
  • Pottery
  • Bronze Working (mistake, should be earlier, after Wheel, to allow earlier whipping of Workers & Settlers)
  • Writing
  • Agriculture
  • Sailing
  • Mysticism
  • Masonry
  • Polytheism (in progress when I stopped sim)
Initial builds in Moscow...
  • Worker
  • Work Boat x2
  • start Barracks
  • switch to Worker @ size 4, built (this is where earlier Slavery would have helped)
  • resume Barracks
  • switch to Worker after revolt to Slavery, whipped for 1 population
  • finished Barracks
  • Settler, whipped for 2 population & 20 :hammers: overflow
  • Archer, 1 turn with overflow
  • Archer
  • Granary
  • Archer
  • Galley, whipped for 2 population & 24 :hammers: overflow
  • Work Boat, 1 turn with overflow
  • Archer
I had to whip that Galley toward the end because a Stalin Galley showed up and pillaged the Fishing Boats. :mad: Perhaps a good reason to put a high priority on researching Sailing. Built 2nd City/Novgorod on riverside plains hill 1S of starting location, to try a different location and to saves the trees on the hill 1S of there for chopping later. Screenshot and save attached.

Edited Autosave...

Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 0 (4000 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:46:18]
Player Comment TEST Version=nuked; settling NNE

Turn 1 (3960 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:46:28]
Player Comment Moscow founded; building Worker (20 turns); researching Animal Husbandry (13 turns)

Turn 13 (3480 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:49:28]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry

Turn 14 (3440 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:49:33]
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)
Player Comment Animal Husbandry completed; start Fishing (6 turns)

Turn 19 (3240 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:50:44]

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Fishing

Turn 20 (3200 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:50:50]
Research begun: The Wheel (10 Turns)
Player Comment Fishing completed; start The Wheel

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 21 (3160 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:52:24]
Moscow begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
Player Comment Worker finished; building Work Boat; Worker to Cows 1W

Turn 22 (3120 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:54:00]
Player Comment Worker begins scrubbing Cows

Turn 28 (2880 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:54:59]
Player Comment Cows scrubbed; Worker 1 starts Pasture

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel

Turn 29 (2840 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:55:41]
Research begun: Archery (7 Turns)
Player Comment The Wheel completed; start Archery

Turn 31 (2760 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:56:32]
A Pasture was built near Moscow

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 2

Turn 32 (2720 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:56:40]
Player Comment Worker 1 finished Pasture; will build road for Health benefit

Turn 34 (2640 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:58:14]
Player Comment Worker 1 finished Road, Moscow now healthy; moving 1W to riverside Gold Hill

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 35 (2600 BC) [19-Sep-2010 10:59:51]
Moscow begins: Work Boat (10 turns)
Player Comment Work Boat 1 completed, moving to Fish; building Work Boat for Clams
Player Comment Worker 1 starts scrubbing riverside Gold Hill

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Archery

Turn 36 (2560 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:06:08]
Research begun: Pottery (11 Turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Moscow
Player Comment Archery completed; start Pottery

Turn 37 (2520 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:07:20]

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 3

Turn 41 (2360 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:07:46]
Player Comment Worker 1 finsihed scrubbing riverside Gold Hill; bginning Mine

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 42 (2320 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:08:57]
Moscow begins: Barracks (10 turns)
Player Comment Work Boat 2 complete; start building Barracks; WB2 to Clams
A Fishing Boats was built near Moscow

Turn 43 (2280 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:10:57]

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 4

Turn 44 (2240 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:11:06]
A Mine was built near Moscow
Moscow begins: Worker (5 turns)
Player Comment With Moscow at Size 4, add Worker to top of build queue

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery

Turn 45 (2200 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:19:34]
Research begun: Bronze Working (7 Turns)
Player Comment Pottery completed; start Bronze Working (should have done BW before Pottery????)
Player Comment Worker 1 completed Gold Mine, moving to Cows 1SE

Turn 46 (2160 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:22:01]
Player Comment Worker 1 starts scrubbing Cows

Turn 48 (2080 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:22:39]

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 49 (2040 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:22:45]
Player Comment Worker 2 completed, joining Worker 1; Barracks build resumed

Turn 50 (2000 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:23:49]
Player Comment Worker 2 starts scrubbing Cows

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Bronze Working

Turn 51 (1960 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:24:22]
Research begun: Writing (184 Turns)
Player Comment BW completed, revolted to Slavery; start Writing
Player Comment Cows scrubbed, both Workers building Pasture

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Cathy(Imperial Russia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 52 (1920 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:29:31]
A Pasture was built near Moscow
Moscow begins: Worker (4 turns)
Player Comment Anarchy over, added Worker to top of build queue

Turn 53 (1880 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:31:28]
Player Comment Pasture completed, both Workers building Roads from Pasture to 1SW

Turn 54 (1840 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:34:21]
Player Comment whipped Worker in Moscow for 1 population

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Moscow
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 55 (1800 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:35:51]
Player Comment Worker 3 to Gold Hill 1SW

Turn 56 (1760 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:36:52]
Player Comment Worker 3 begins scrubbing Gold Hill
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 move to riverside plains hill 1S of starting location

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 4
Moscow finishes: Barracks

Turn 57 (1720 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:39:23]
Moscow begins: Settler (8 turns)
Player Comment Barracks completed in Moscow; start Settler
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 start scrubbing plains hill

Turn 59 (1640 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:41:34]
Player Comment whip Settler in Moscow for 2 population & 20 hammer overflow

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Moscow
Tech research finished: Writing
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 60 (1600 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:42:57]
Research begun: Agriculture (6 Turns)
Moscow begins: Archer (9 turns)
Player Comment building Archer in Moscow, 1 turn for completion; Settler to riverside plains hill 1S of starting location
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 moving to Rice
Player Comment Writing completed; starting Agriculture

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Archer

Turn 61 (1560 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:46:23]
Moscow begins: Archer (9 turns)
Archer 1 (Moscow) promoted: City Garrison I
Novgorod founded
Novgorod begins: Library (15 turns)
Player Comment Novgorod founded on riverside palins hill 1S of starting location
Player Comment Novgorod building Library

Turn 62 (1520 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:51:31]
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 begin scrubing Rice
Player Comment Worker 3 finished scrubbing gold hill, begins Mine

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 3

Turn 64 (1440 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:53:06]

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Moscow

Turn 65 (1400 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:53:13]
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 finished scrubbing Rice, both building Road

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Agriculture
Moscow grows to size 4
Moscow finishes: Archer
Novgorod's borders expand

Turn 66 (1360 BC) [19-Sep-2010 11:54:24]
Research begun: Sailing (7 Turns)
Moscow begins: Granary (8 turns)
Player Comment Archer 2 completed in Moscow; start Granary
Archer 2 (Moscow) promoted: Guerilla I
Player Comment Worker 3 finished Gold Mine, moving 1SW to riverside grass tile
Player Comment moved citizen in Moscow from Fishing Boats to new Gold Mine, 2 turns knocked off Granary build time
Player Comment Workers 1 & 2 building Rice Farm

Turn 67 (1320 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:01:36]
Player Comment Worker 3 starts scrubbing Fallout
Player Comment Archer 2 fortified in Novgorod

Turn 68 (1280 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:03:43]
A Farm was built near Novgorod
Player Comment Rice Farm completed. Worker 2 joining Worker 3

After End Turn:
Novgorod grows to size 2

Turn 69 (1240 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:05:11]
Player Comment Worker 1 moves 1N to plains hill; Worker 3 scrubs Fallout with Worker 2

Turn 70 (1200 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:06:32]
Player Comment Worker 1 scrubs Fallout

Turn 71 (1160 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:07:02]
Player Comment Workers 2 & 3 finished scrubbing Fallout; both start Cottage on riverside grass tile 1NW of Novgorod

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Sailing
Moscow finishes: Granary

Turn 72 (1120 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:08:26]
Research begun: Mysticism (3 Turns)
Moscow begins: Archer (3 turns)
A Cottage was built near Moscow
Player Comment Granary complete in Moscow, building Archer

Turn 73 (1080 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:10:10]
Player Comment Workers 2 & 3 complete Cottage; both building Roads from Cottage to Copper 1NW

After End Turn:
Moscow finishes: Archer

Turn 74 (1040 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:11:41]
Moscow begins: Archer (4 turns)
Moscow begins: Galley (7 turns)
Archer 3 (Moscow) promoted: City Garrison I
Player Comment Archer completed in Moscow; starting Galley since Stalin has Galley 1NW of Fishing boats

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Moscow
Tech research finished: Mysticism
Novgorod grows to size 3

Turn 75 (1000 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:15:02]
Research begun: Masonry (4 Turns)
Player Comment Mysticism completed; starting Masonry
Player Comment whipped Galley in Moscow for 2 population and 24 hammer overflow

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Moscow
Moscow grows to size 3
Moscow finishes: Galley

Other Player Actions:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Moscow
A Fishing Boats near Moscow was destroyed by Russian Galley

Turn 76 (975 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:16:53]
Moscow begins: Work Boat (6 turns)
Player Comment Stalin's Gally pillages Fishing Boats
While attacking in Russian Tsardom territory at Moscow, Galley 1 (Moscow) (1.20/2) defeats Russian Galley (Prob Victory: 32.2%)
Player Comment Our Galley kills Stalins's Galley, moves to Fish; building Work Boat in Moscow, 1 turn to complete
Player Comment Worker 1 finished scrubbing, starts Mine on plains hill SSW of Moscow
Player Comment Workers 2 & 3 completed road to Copper, Worker 2 scrubbing Fallout on Copper

After End Turn:
Moscow grows to size 4
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 77 (950 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:20:52]
Moscow begins: Archer (4 turns)
Galley 1 (Moscow) promoted: Combat I
Player Comment Galley 1 given Combat I promo, healing on Fish
Player Comment Worker 3 scrubbing Fallout on copper

Turn 78 (925 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:22:37]
A Fishing Boats was built near Moscow
Player Comment Work Boat 3 builds Fishing Boats

After End Turn:
Novgorod finishes: Library

Turn 79 (900 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:23:53]
Novgorod begins: Worker (9 turns)
Player Comment Galley 1 healed, Sentry on Fishing Boats
A Mine was built near Moscow
Player Comment Novgorod finsihed Library, building Worker

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Masonry
Moscow grows to size 5
Moscow finishes: Archer

Turn 80 (875 BC) [19-Sep-2010 12:25:48]
Research begun: Polytheism (5 Turns)
Moscow begins: Settler (5 turns)
Player Comment Masonry completed; starting Polytheism
Player Comment Archer 4 completed in Moscow, building Settler
Archer 4 (Moscow) promoted: City Garrison I
Player Comment Worker 1 completed Mine; stopping Sim on turn 80
 
I played Leif's nuked save for 80 turns. Settled NNE again. I'm thinking that may be the best spot (although still haven't tried settling in place).

Thanks for playing this one too so we have something to compare. Excellent. I tried settling in place for a little while but I didn't play it for as long, giving up early. The weakness early on there compared to NNE is that with the NNE one at least you can get a five food two commerce tile working reasonably quickly - just as soon as you study fishing and get out a workboat. This makes a significant difference to settler and worker production because I was relying on the whip for those units and lots of food means getting back to higher pop again quick means you whip again sooner. I think the NNE spot will definitely yield more early settlers and workers than in place, though I could have another go at the in place spot I suppose to see if I can match it. That in place is a good spot long term. The other weakness with the in place settling spot is that it limits settling options in our peninsula. The NNE spot makes another city in the peninsula more of a paying option.

Decided to complete a Worker first, to get a fast start on scrubbing Fallout, so research Animal Husbandry first, then Fishing. Learned both techs with 1 turn remaining on Worker build. After Worker, I built two Work Boats for the Fish & Clams.

The trade off for completing the worker first is that you have to complete it using one forest tile yielding only 3 [food+hamm] in total whereas the fish tile yields 5 and gets you two commerce on top of that. You get scrubbing fallout slightly earlier if you don't produce the workboat before finishing the worker and that will get you the cow tile quicker, but meanwhile, tech speed is slower, and this is still a space race, despite the war distractions we have early on!

I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the main objective, and that's getting a space ship launched as fast as possible. It's still that date that will decide the finishing order. Getting peace with everyone should not be a challenge. Finishing off Stalin will require a variation on normal space race strategies, and of course we have o be very thorough with the mapping to find all the fallout and make sure it is scrubbed. That might require more war to take control of tiles to scrub them if the AI won't, but the bottom line still must be fast tech, get quickly to education (with just a few side steps early) in order to multiply our tech speed mid game before ramping up production big time in the late game. This involves using as many tiles as possible early on too, which means that settlers early are important.

Research Path...
  • Animal Husbandry
  • Fishing
  • The Wheel (to build road on Pasture for :health: benefit)


  • Yes - I think I put archery in before the wheel in my test, but the health benefit is worth something. Not a big deal if it's delayed only a few turns, but it is important.

    [*]Archery
    [*]Pottery
    [*]Bronze Working (mistake, should be earlier, after Wheel, to allow earlier whipping of Workers & Settlers)

    I agree - BW should be in fairly early. Especially if we take that NNE spot which is rich in food - we need to convert those food to hammers in the form of settlers and workers with the whip, which means we must have slavery working before we want to produce the first settler or the second worker.

    I had to whip that Galley toward the end because a Stalin Galley showed up and pillaged the Fishing Boats. :mad: Perhaps a good reason to put a high priority on researching Sailing.

    Yes - I did wonder when I was playing why Stalin didn't hassle me earlier with a galley. We shouldn't delay sailing too long because those fishing boats are important to settler and worker production. They really make a big difference.
 
I can't imagine any other site besides NNE that could do as well ... NE or in place will have more fallout unhealth (-4 vs -3, right) which is no small impediment to worker production, and growth early on.

One wild idea is whether settling on the hill 2 south and building a worker and a settler (or settler worker) and using that city as a worker and settler pump has any advantages. I think it gets that first worker out a bit faster, and if the NNE city is freed of the burden of making workers or settlers ever, does that make up for its later founding, given how limited the city is at the start due to fallout?

Kind of a variation on the settle SE idea we discussed before ... is it worth a test?

Also, it seems that the initial unhappy from WW won't be a big problem. Still, with so much hatred toward us already, is running a religion a trivial addition to that, and is the potential 2 happy (religion and temple in city) from having religion worth our founding one early? Or are our chances of picking one up by the time we might need it good enough to not need early religon tech?

dV
 
I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the main objective, and that's getting a space ship launched as fast as possible. It's still that date that will decide the finishing order. Getting peace with everyone should not be a challenge. Finishing off Stalin will require a variation on normal space race strategies, and of course we have o be very thorough with the mapping to find all the fallout and make sure it is scrubbed.
Agreed, we must not lose sight of the tech race we will face. As we have, traditionally, relied upon our capital to pump out many of our beakers, not sure I see any alternative to NNE. With two Gold Hills, ocean commerce and enough food to run specialists, we should aim for early Academy and Oxford. As the Capital, we also should get CS and Bureaucracy. Might be nice to try for Oracle, with a Metal Casting sling, to get it?

Also, it seems that the initial unhappy from WW won't be a big problem. Still, with so much hatred toward us already, is running a religion a trivial addition to that, and is the potential 2 happy (religion and temple in city) from having religion worth our founding one early? Or are our chances of picking one up by the time we might need it good enough to not need early religon tech?
In the race to CS, Code of Laws will give us Confucianism. That might be early enough with all the whipping it looks like we'll have to do.

Remember Fred's analysis that whipping Settlers and Workers is more efficient than buildings. So our focus should be those units early, with some defenders to grow back pop.

I think we should also consider a scouting WB and a relatively early scouting unit to find Stalin and see how much room we have to the west to expand. iirc, the map generator normally spaces civs out about 13 to 15 tiles from one another. We'll need to check if Erkon moved Stalin closer or gave us some room? Erkon wrote that the map was fractal with islands, thus a WB to scout?

Are we pretty much settled on NNE?
Build order and tech selections?

btw, we can make a more accurate map/situation once we learn more about our surroundings. My purpose in making the war weariness save was to determine the WW effect upon our settling and growth, and it seems to be not as bad as we first thought.
 
In the race to CS, Code of Laws will give us Confucianism. That might be early enough with all the whipping it looks like we'll have to do.

That might be the way to get the happies we need from religion. Until then we'll be using all that food to feed the whip. Once we are using the whip less and the population is growing, by then perhaps we could have CoL? Just guessing.

I think we should also consider a scouting WB and a relatively early scouting unit to find Stalin and see how much room we have to the west to expand. iirc, the map generator normally spaces civs out about 13 to 15 tiles from one another. We'll need to check if Erkon moved Stalin closer or gave us some room? Erkon wrote that the map was fractal with islands, thus a WB to scout?

Yes - I think a little scouting might help. First workboat has got to go on the fish if we settle NNE, but after that we could use one as a scout, or perhaps a third workboat as scout?

Are we pretty much settled on NNE?

I think it's the best spot. Was thinking more about settling in place and it's not real good for a number of reasons - it makes the clams unusable by any city, and it requires settling NW of the copper (in the nuked save) to get the fish. I'd rather have them both in range of Moscow... The SE spot is better than in place, but I like NNE better.

Build order and tech selections?

If settling NNE, we need to make the most of the strengths of that position. That means studying fishing first and getting a workboat on the fish quickly. Whether we start a worker until fishing is in and switch then to workboat and finish the worker later or whether we finish the worker before doing the workboat might have to be tested. I like the former because of the power of the developed fish tile, with the commerce added and my guess is that will be better than the cow tile developed a few turns earlier, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead!
 
Proposed Roster:
Active:
Mad Professor - UP
Grifftavian - On Deck
zamint3
Conquistador63
Cactus Pete
Ronnie1
leif


Lurker:
da_Vinci
Frederiksberg
Rusten
The-Hawk


I propose that the first player play about 40 turns, to the completion of the second WB, if that is the sequence we are going to use. We do not necessarily fix the length of turn sets but try to focus upon goals. If you run into something that needs to be clarified, please feel free to stop, save and post.

Please have a look at the proposed roster. If you would like to change somewhere within it, let me know either by posting or PM. If you have time constraints that require that you move, that is, generally, no problem either.

Also, players can move between lurker and active or the other way around by asking.
 
That might be the way to get the happies we need from religion. Until then we'll be using all that food to feed the whip. Once we are using the whip less and the population is growing, by then perhaps we could have CoL? Just guessing.
Depending upon our beaker output, a diversion to Monarchy may be in order for Hereditary Rule. Without stone, don't see Pyramids as a viable option at this point. Of course, we could capture it. :D

Do you think Great Library fits in here anywhere?

Yes - I think a little scouting might help. First workboat has got to go on the fish if we settle NNE, but after that we could use one as a scout, or perhaps a third workboat as scout?
Yes, i was thinking along the lines of a third WB. I think we will need the second one for Clams and a bit more health?
 
Depending upon our beaker output, a diversion to Monarchy may be in order for Hereditary Rule. Without stone, don't see Pyramids as a viable option at this point. Of course, we could capture it. :D

Do you think Great Library fits in here anywhere?
Monarchy is on the direct path to Rocketry (and The Apollo Project), so not really a diversion, IMO. Getting Monarchy/HR fairly soon and using garrison units as military police to combat whip unhappiness and WW sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, none of our AI opponents has HR as their favorite civic.

Researching Aesthetics & Literature in order to build The Great Library is a diversion off the direct path to Rocketry. But it might be worth it if we can build GL early in the game, especially if we build it in the same city where we plan to build Oxford Univ. As MP & you have pointed out, the game is first and foremost a tech race.

Catherine's Creative trait gives us double production speed for Libraries. So researching Writing early, building those cheap Libraries, and running a few Scientist specialists would reduce the time it takes to research Aesthetics & Literature. And I'll suggest that we save the trees around Moscow (assumed NNE settlement) to chop rush the GL.

Also, Catherine's Imperialistic trait gives us +50% production for Settlers, so perhaps a REX to 3 or 4 cities (whatever we can afford without crashing the economy) might be in order. And the Creative trait's +2 :culture:/city means all our cities will expand out the their full BFC about 5 turns after founding. So we if find a resource we want to claim, we don't need to found a city right next to the resource, just close enough so get it in the 2nd ring after the borders pop. That may be useful with all the Fallout in this game.

Yes, i was thinking along the lines of a third WB. I think we will need the second one for Clams and a bit more health?
Agree; a third WB to scout along the coast, and maybe a Scout for inland exploration as well.
 
Monarchy is on the direct path to Rocketry (and The Apollo Project), so not really a diversion, IMO. Getting Monarchy/HR fairly soon and using garrison units as military police to combat whip unhappiness and WW sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, none of our AI opponents has HR as their favorite civic.

But you can get Education without Monarchy, and that's why I think Lief calls it a "diversion". What we should be trying for, if our enemies will leave us alone enough for us to arrange it, is to get education early, chop some universities, and build Oxford as soon after that as possible - the science multiplication effect of a bunch of universities and an early Oxford is mind boggling. Finding some stone by then would be a big help! :rolleyes: Maybe one of our enemies can help us with that!! :mischief:

Catherine's Creative trait gives us double production speed for Libraries. So researching Writing early, building those cheap Libraries, and running a few Scientist specialists would reduce the time it takes to research Aesthetics & Literature. And I'll suggest that we save the trees around Moscow (assumed NNE settlement) to chop rush the GL.

Sounds like an attractive plan. Certainly we want an early academy in Moscow if we can do that - the NNE spot with good food in two commerce coast tiles plus two gold mines screams out for an early academy. Perhaps there is a point we might like to find where hitting Moscow hard with the whip to push out settlers and workers should give way to growing it and putting on two scientists as soon as a library gets built so we get that academy in place ASAP.

Also, Catherine's Imperialistic trait gives us +50% production for Settlers, so perhaps a REX to 3 or 4 cities (whatever we can afford without crashing the economy) might be in order.

Yes - I'm interested to know how close our nearest neighbour really is in the real game. How much room do we have?

leif erikson said:
Proposed Roster:
Active:
Mad Professor - UP

Noted. I'm happy to lead off having had a go at the test save. I'll post a plan for you lot to pick apart in the next day or two. If you have a strong opinion you want me to consider meanwhile, then speak up. :D
 
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