SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

mdy said:
I see that I have been inconsistent in how I have labelled or GP's. I support generating 7 GP's in total, which is 6 more than we have generated so far, and I support generating 3 GP's in total in gold, which is 2 more than we have already generated.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

mdy said:
By OK I meant that a 1 pop whip in that scenario is consistent with generating 3 GP's IN TOTAL there. From what I understood of your numbers working the gold for 1T before the revolt means growth is delayed by 1T, which means we would have 1 fewer scientist turn after the revolt

Correct.

mdy said:
, which we would have to compensate for by hiring an extra scientist instead of working the gold for 1 extra turn after the revolt, so working the coast does not cost us any gold turns.

I'm not sure that we agree on this point, but since I'll work the Coast instead of the Gold and all other details in regards to Gold versus a Scientist will fall into your turnset, this potential disagreement (or perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of your plan on my part) will not affect my turnset. So, we can resolve it later.

My thinking is that if Gold City is going to generate our last Great Person, then every turn spent working a Scientist instead of the Gold Resource means that we'll get our Great Person faster. The only exception might be if we'll end up generating slightly too many GPP on the last turn of generating GPP and thus we might want a couple of turns during your turnset to be spent working the Gold Resource instead of a Scientist.

Anyway, once you present a spreadsheet, things will become clearer.

I should be able to start play shortly.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

First things first, we attack the Barb Galley... and win... barely.

At least we earned 2 Experience Points out of the deal.

I also sent one of our Workers to the PForSilk, which it will chop now, since it will never get within our Cultural Borders unless we totally flub the game. From there, it can spawn-bust for the next turn for the newly-created Barb Galley.

If you look closely, you will see that there is a land-based connection to another island to the NW up there.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

The gifting + trading of Math went ahead as per the latest plan:
Vicky is +3 with us for Fair and Forthright Trading, putting her at Pleased (+4 total) with us. I also Opened Borders with her.

Willem went from +1 to +4 with us for Fair and Forthright Trading, putting him at Pleased (+7 total) with us. From an earlier screenshot, I see that he was only Cautious towards us at +3 total.

Cathy gave us +1 for Fair and Forthright Trading, leaving her at Cautious (0 total) with us.

Isabella gave us a -1 negative modifier for having traded with her Worst Enemy, so Isabella ties us with Cathy at Annoyed (-3 total). It is possible that we might become Isabella's Worst Enemy next turn.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Vicky claims that she would have "nothing to gain" by declaring war on Ragnar. I don't blame her, but at least she won't be able to dog-pile on us (at least not until our trading-based Diplo bonus wears off) if we are Ragnar's intended victim.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Seeing nothing remaining to do, I advance the turn.

It is Turn 142, 470 BC.

We are the Worst Enemy of both Ragnar and Isabella, meaning that they won't offer us Archery in trade (not like we really want Archery right now anyway).

Paris fires the Engineer Specialist and will still complete The Pyramids in 2 turns.

Gold City grows to Size 9 with 1 Unhappiness (don't forget that we'll whip away a population point next turn, so we're not really "officially at Size 9" yet).

Marble City grows to Size 6 and works another Coast square.

Stone City completes the Military Police Warrior for Pig City and starts on Trireme 3 (Trireme 2 does not yet exist and will be built in Gold City).

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

I advance the game to Turn 143, 455 BC.

We finally meet "Bismarck" from our test game!

Er... make that Joao II.

Of course, that means that our test game's Joao II can stop being Willem and can instead "be" Joao II, which makes Bismarck our test game's version of Willem, not Joao II. Confused yet? :crazyeye:

Ironically, despite what he claims in the screenshot, it was HIS explorations that led him to us, as I saw a Work Boat appear on the eastern edge of our empire.

Sigh, another Buddhist. I thought that he had founded Hinduism and would thus be running that Religion. Did Isabella really found all early 3 Religions? Did he instead found Hinduism but decide to convert to Buddhism?

It's hard to say, but it does look like he has 4 Cities.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Ohhh, the fickle AI shall indeed PAY! OH YES WILL THEY EVER!

But, I am getting ahead of myself here. I'm about to reveal one of my favourite Diplo tricks, so listen-up closely.

Here is the current Diplo situation:

What you will notice is that we are the Worst Enemy of three different AIs. Well, part of the reason for Joao II hating us is a temporary "Traded with our Worst Enemy" penalty. This penalty should dissipate soon enough, since it is very high now because we just recently met him.

Now, here's where the bad (but good if you look for the bright side) news comes in:
Cathy has learned Monarchy.

It is time to gift her Alphabet, to avoid Willem getting Monarchy for free off of Cathy. Of course, that's where the fun part comes in.

Rather than simply trading Alphabet to Cathy, say, for Archery, we can gift Alphabet to her. In so doing, three AIs will get ANGRY AT CATHY for having traded with their Worst Enemy. Ha! Brilliant! All of a sudden, we should be able to go from being the world's most hated object and replacing it with Cathy!

On the following turn, when Cathy (hopefully) retakes our place as Joao II's Worst Enemy, we should (hopefully) be able to trade him Math for Archery. Since it will be a trade made recently after he met us, he should give us a lot of Fair and Forthright Trading points for such a trade. Meanwhile, Cathy should hopefully do what Isabella did and only give us a -1 negative Diplo modifier for having traded with her Worst Enemy.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Actualy, since Ragnar is Pleased with Cathy, he's unlikely to switch his Worst Enemy target to her, but Isabella and Joao II should do so.

In the meantime, if we want, we could probably gift a tech to others if we wanted multiple AIs to be angry at them.

For example, we could:
a) Gift Code of Laws to Vicky, which would make Ragnar, Isabella, and Joao II dislike her more
OR
b) Gift Code of Laws to Isabella, which would make Ragnar and Joao II dislike her more, which would help to somewhat break up the current Buddhist block
OR
c) If we don't mind Cathy absolutely hating US, we could gift Math to Joao II immediately, which would get rid of Isabella's Friendliness towards Joao II (the only Friendly relationship in the game at present)

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Okay, our Work Boat has moved closer to Ragnar's capital but has yet to spot any of Ragnar's Galleys. Presumably, he's either off attacking another AI or is building-up his forces in one of his Cities.

One Worker starts to Mine the Plains Hills at Iron City while the other continues to Chop the Forest on the Silk.

Our Galley picks up Marble City's Confucian Missionary and a 2nd Confucian Missionary is whipped in Gold City.

I'm not certain, but I think that it makes sense to pick up both Confucian Missionaries and then drop them off one-by-one:

I haven't done the square-counting yet, but intrinsically, this idea makes sense. That said, we COULD drop a Confucian Missionary off on Paris' Island next turn, if we wanted to do so, but doing so slows us getting the 2nd Confucian Missionary over to Pig City. As I said, I haven't counted the squares yet but will do so shortly.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Yeah, I think that getting both Confucian Missionaries in one trip makes the most sense.

Dropping the first one off on Paris' Island means spreading on Turns:
T145 in Paris
T148 in Pig City

Picking them both up in the same trip means spreading on Turns:
T146 in Paris
T147 in Pig City

Since Turn 147 is the turn that we will come out of Anarchy, this way, we'll have Confucianism wherever we'll need it. Pig City still needs to grow, so it probably really won't matter at all, anyway.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

By the way, do we think that we can win in 1000 years?

Kossin just seems to have replied to himself after the Plastic Ducks' thread disappeared to the bottom of the list. Of course, I've been "replying to myself" a lot in this thread with all of my message spam, but given their # of messages per turn, I'd seriously think that maybe they are done.

Oh well, no worries. We'll play our own game and do the best of it that we can. I seem to recall them finishing first last month being a reason to only motivate this team to beat them!

So, I haven't made any tech gifts yet as I'm hoping to hear at least some feedback before doing so.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Oh yeah, one more thing that I just thought of: during the next turnset, since we won't be using Slavery, Stone City could choose to steal the Desert Hills Mine square from Pig City.

It may not be much, but if production is lacking empire-wide, then every little bit can count.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Do we consider gifting-away our Stone once The Pyramids are completed? Doing so might just encourage an AI to build City Walls, so I'm not very enthusiastic about the idea, and we don't really see any Resources available in trade.

So, probably "no."

That said, when the two tech trades with Cathy are ready to expire, we'll want to renegotiate them, particularly if we're planning on having her be the Worst Enemy of at least Willem and Isabella.

Note that we don't currently have a Trade Network connection with Joao II, so we don't see what duplicate Resources he has available, if any.

I also just confirmed that there are zero AI-AI Resource Trading deals currently going on.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Okay, chalk one up for the learning books. My "awesome trick" doesn't work. It works in the opposite direction. I figured that it sounded too easy.

So, yeah, Cathy would have to trade something to US. Oh well, Alphabet has been gifted and now she's Pleased at +4 Fair and Forthright Trading (total +3) towards us. Good enough for me.

Since my "trick" obviously doesn't work (we'd have to get techs traded TO us instead of us giving techs away), I'm not going to gift out Code of Laws.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

As per the plan, Gold City works a Coast instead of the Gold Resource, while Stone City, having just grown to Size 3, works the GH Mine.

Seeing nothing else to do, I end the turn...

It is Turn 144, 440 BC, and there is a lot of news to report.

1. We completed The Pyramids! Yaaa!! Do a little dance: put your left leg in, take it out again, etc.

2. Ahahahaha mdy, you're going to hate me, but I left you with a nice little Barb Galley trap. Actually, Joao II appears to be to blame:

Hahaha, good luck with that one!

Actually, maybe the Barb Galleys will simply sail on by. Let's NOT Open Borders with Joao II, shall we? Not like he'd let us anyway, being his Worst Enemy and all.

But seriously, with our Trireme healing on top of the Clam, we'll either get attacked or likely the Barb Galleys will just continue to chase Joao II's Work Boat. I hope. Well, that's your mess to deal with, not mine! HAHAHA!

3. Vicky learned Monarchy. So, she, too, is about to get Alphabet.

And, apparently, I was wrong... I double-checked the XML and yes, I was wrong: Vicky can be bribed into war against any player that she is less than Friendly with. The XML says "Pleased" but it's a "greater than" instead of a "greater than or equal" relationship with that variable. So, my mistake in my earlier claim that Vicky could not get bribed against us.

However, we do have an opportunity to bribe her against Joao II, whom she is currently Pleased towards:

Maybe it WILL be worth it to make this war declaration, so that Joao II doesn't decide to go after his Worst Enemy (us)? Anyway, something to think about.

Here's a picture of the current Diplo situation:

3 AIs are Pleased with us, while 3 think that we are the scum of the earth. Not too bad, huh? :lol:

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

I forget what we were going to build in Paris yet... maybe that's because we haven't decided... but I set the build item to Moai Statues.

I'm undecided about Paris, but if we're only going to try to generate one of the lower-total-GPP Great People there, then maybe we should work the two GH Mines while the City grows... it all depends upon the GPP plan, so I'm just going to leave the two GH Mines being worked by citizens. Don't forget that after we revolt, we'll want to assign a citizen to a Coast, since the Unhappy person will almost certainly either become an Engineer or will work the Cottage. So far, we have done a great job of micromanagement in that we have yet to spend a single turn working that darned Cottage. It would be a shame to start now! :lol:

As for the Confucian Missionaries... they are both in the Galley. The way I see it, we can arrive in Paris in 2 turns, at which point a Missionary unload and then can spread on that exact turn. One turn later, we can arrive in Stone City, where the other Missionary can unload (but not spread in Stone City) and then travel to Pig City on the same turn, so that it can spread in Pig City.

Of course, if you don't get this exact timing, not a worry: we'll be growing the Cities for a couple of turns anyway, thus there's no rush to perfection on this detail.

What else? Oh yeah, I guess that I'll leave the decision for the next turnset:
Do we gift Alphabet to Vicky or do we Trade her Code of Laws + Alphabet <-> War with Joao II + Archery?

I don't care either way.

Actually, come to think of it, we probably don't need to do either one. It's not like Vicky and Willem know each other. So, as long as neither of them meet each other, we can hog Alphabet to ourselves instead of giving it to Vicky... that is, until someone else learns Alphabet or Monarchy. Anyway, the Tech situation will have to be monitored each turn to watch for a potential Monarchy <-> Alphabet trade. Remember, we don't want to take Monarchy in trade ourselves, as doing so speeds up the AIs' willingness to treat the tech as a "junk tech that can be traded away for bargain basement prices."

What else? Oh yeah, we found Ragnar with 2 Galleys. We don't know what units have been loaded onto them, but they are still in his capital. So, we can probably rightfully assume that his capital will be the launching point for his invasion of... whomever he is going to attack.

At least Ragnar didn't appears to get a promotion for having killed the Barb Galley... probably due to the AIs' high bonus against Barb Units.

So, yeah, I think that I'm done here. Whatever else that I may have forgotten can be done in the next turnset.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

A few more comments for the next turnset:
- Our Resource trades with Cathy will come due in 3 turns, but we probably don't need to renegotiate them, as we're now Isabella's Worst Enemy instead of Cathy holding that honour. Of course, if anyone switches to having Cathy as their Worst Enemy, then you'll want to immediately renegotiate these two Resource trades.

- Those 2 Resource trades are worth +2 Health. We don't really want to lose them. So, it's probably best NOT to give Math to Joao II. Just pretend like we hadn't met Joao II, if that makes you feel better about the situation. Angering Cathy is probably not worth the risk. As long as we remain Joao II's Worst Enemy, we can't make a trade with him, so gifting him Math would count, in Cathy's eyes, as having gifted him Math three times. That's a lot of tech value and we really don't want to anger her, thus giving her an excuse to cancel the deals either now (or later, when we anger her for other reasons, such as declaring war on her friends)... you know, such as Ragnar, whom she is Pleased with.

- I left it up to you to decide where to put the Work Boat explorer, but one idea is to position it so that is 4-moves-away from Nidaros at the end of every second turn... that way, it can go check out Nidaros (to see if Ragnar's Galleys left but went in a southern direction) and then can return to its location 4-moves-away from Nidaros at the end of the second turn. That way, every 2 turns, we'll be "one movement point ahead" of Ragnar's Galleys, should he come for us.

- Of course, at some point, we'll need that Work Boat for our Crab, so you'll need to work out what date that will be.

- Since the previous Barb Galley sailed up to our Trireme and then sailed away form it, the Barbs will probably have a random chance of attacking our Trireme. The worst case situation will be when both of them are beside us, so the best thing that we can hope for is that the first Barb Galley will attack us when we end the turn and that we won't be too badly wounded. That way, we can just stay in place on the Clam and heal a bit, hoping to survive the attack of the second one. In the worst case, we'll need to run away and hide with the Trireme (in Iron City? use our 3 movement points to get away?) and just hope that the worst thing that the Barb Galleys do is pillage our Iron City's Clam before (hopefully) continuing to follow Joao II's Galley away.

- As a reminder, you'll want to Lightbulb with our Great Scientist before switching Civics.

- Our Trireme has been healing at a rate of 0.2 Health per turn.

Dhoomstriker · May 13, 2011

Here is your Session Turn Log from Turn 138, 550 BC to Turn 144, 440 BC along with a link to the REAL saved game:

Spoiler :

mdy · May 14, 2011

We don't seem to be having much luck with barb galleys do we? If both barb galleys decide to attack our trieme it is dead, and we don't really want to lure it into the heart of our empire as we don't currently have any other triemes. We could consider attacking immediately. We would have a 75% chance of winning, and if we won it could shelter in iron city, gain a promotion which should hopefully leave it in a position to defend the clams next turn.

mdy · May 14, 2011

Global GP plan. All GP numbers here refer to the total we will have generated by this point.

Bulb philosophy with GP1 immediately.
Revolt to CS+pacifism+representation immediately.

By Turn:

By city:

Pigs:
T148 grow to size 6. Work mine.
T151 grow to size 7. Work 2 seafood 1 coast and 4 scientists.
T152 work 2 seafood and hire 5 scientists
T154 warrior built. Start Barracks. Use warrior for exploration/barb warning.
T172 Generates GP5. 100%GS for astro

Marble:
T148 Grow size 7. Hire 3 scientists, work 1 coast
T149 Hire 4th scientist instead of working coast.
T154 Build warrior for exploration/barb warning. Start Barracks
T167 Generates GP4 for golden age.
T167 Start golden age.

Gold:
T147 Work gold, 3 seafood, 1 coast, and hire 3 scientists.
T148 Grow size 9. Hire 5 scientists, work gold+3 seafood
T151 Stop working 2 seafood and hire a scientist
T153 Build Trieme. Starts Barracks. Hire scientist instead of working gold
T156 Generates GP2 100% GS for optics. Work gold, 3 seafood, hire 5 scientists. Work 3 seafood+6 specialists
T167 work 2 seafood+7 specialists
T175 Generates GP6 at 100% for astro

Capital:
T147 work 3 seafood 2 mines, 2 coasts. Start Barracks.
T148 work 3 seafood 1 mine 1 coast, hire 2 scientists
T149 grow to size 8, work 3 seafood, hire 5 scientist
T161 Generates GP3. This will be used for engineering.
T175 Finish barracks. Start axe (will be converted to mace)

Stone:
T152 grow to size 4, work desert hill
T155 Finish trieme.
T167 grow to size 5, work workshop
T170 Build forge. Start Barracks
T174 Finish barracks. Start galley(to be converted into galleon)

Iron:
granary-lighthouse-barracks/forge
I haven't planned this city out in more detail because it depends on what the barb galleys do.

Barb/Ragnar Defense:

I propose attacking the barb galley immediately. If we win we can promote to combat 2 and defend the clams against the second one next turn. If we lost this trieme then our galley should be in a position to pick of the wounded galley. If we did lose the trieme we would want to build a replacement in stone/galley.

Unless the RNG decides that the barb galleys will just keep following Jao's workboat then I think this is the best chance we have of preserving our trieme, whilst also keeping all our fishing nets. As the result of this battle would have a significan effect on our plans I would like to make this move before planning further.

In the long one I propose keeping 1 trieme 1S of the gold fish, 1 3W of the fish south of gold, and one to protect the iron nets. As we don't need the extra health from the crabs the WB near Ragnar can be used to net the second iron clams eventually. This would leave us in a position to cover barab attacks from all angles, and to DOW Ragnar if it looks like he is going to attack us, and attack 2 of his galleys before he could land any troops anywhere.

Exploration:

We are going to have significant gaps in our maps at the point when we are preparing for war, but it is difficult to see what we can do about this, other than transporting a warrior to the large landmass.

Research:

Currency-Machinery-Civil Service(stop 1T before completion). What we tech next depends on what we think we can get from the AI's in trade, and what GP we get in Paris.

This leaves us in a position lightbulb optics and astronomy on T175, finish researching civil service on T176, and revolt to CS/slavery/? on the same turn.

Time Order:

T147 Gold work's gold, 3 seafood, 1 coast, and hire 3 scientists.
T147 Capital works 3 seafood 2 mines, 2 coasts. Start Barracks.
T148 Pigs grows to size 6. Work mine.
T148 Marble grows to size 7. Hire 3 scientists, work 1 coast.
T148 Gold grows size 9. Hire 5 scientists, work gold+3 seafood
T148 Capital works 3 seafood 1 mine 1 coast, hire 2 scientists
T149 Marble hire's 4th scientist instead of working coast.
T149 Capital grows to size 8, work 3 seafood, hire 5 scientist
T151 Pigs grows to size 7. Work 2 seafood 1 coast and 4 scientists.
T151 Stop working 1 seafood and hire a scientist in gold
T152 Pigs work 2 seafood and hire 5 scientists
T152 Stone grows to size 4, work desert hill
T153 Gold build's Trieme. Starts Barracks. Hire scientist instead of working gold
T154 Pigs builds warrior . Start Barracks. Use warrior for exploration/barb warning.
T154 Marble build's warrior for exploration/barb warning. Start Barracks
T155 Stone builds trieme.
T156 Gold generates GP2 100% GS for optics. Work gold, 3 seafood, hire 5 scientists. Work 3 seafood+6 specialists
T161 Capital generates GP3. This will be used for engineering.
T167 Marble generates GP4 for golden age.
T167 Start golden age.
T167 Gold works 2 seafood+7 specialists
T167 Stone grows to size 5, work workshop
T170 Stone builds forge. Start Barracks
T172 Pigs generates GP5. 100%GS for astro
T174 Stone builds barracks. Start galley(to be converted into galleon)
T175 Gold generates GP6 at 100% for astro
T175 Capital builds barracks. Start axe (will be converted to mace)

SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

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