How many are needed on this map size?
I don't see why not.
Again, I don't see why not. There's nothing else we need.
SGOTM 13 - Smurkz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
eldar
ChiefTank
Prior to me playing this, probably tonight:
Long Term
Head off into space.
Short Term
1. Populate the nearby island.
2. Keep trying suicide galleys? (West? South?)
Next 10
Build settlers, transport & found cities. If nobody's done a dotmap by the time I get back I'll throw one together.
I presume any new cities will be set to Wealth+Sci?
Long Term
Head off into space.
Short Term
1. Populate the nearby island.
2. Keep trying suicide galleys? (West? South?)
Next 10
Build settlers, transport & found cities. If nobody's done a dotmap by the time I get back I'll throw one together.
I presume any new cities will be set to Wealth+Sci?
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I think Galleys Go South would be the best plan, to meet the Light Blue People.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Yes, that was my question
.On standard it is
One alternative is two 6 turners. It depends on how many shields are available, and on how many settlers/workers we need. Yet another option is to focus on galleys. Probably that is worse.
Another choice is to save up cash after Lit. But probably it is better to at least research CoL and Philo first.
Eldar, I realize that the game has lost some of its appeal and the strategy seems clear. But I think your plan is a bit minimalistic, I would like to see more details. What are our towns going to do, for example? Now that we have so little to work with, squeezing every last drop out of it will pay off.
I don't think wealth + scientists is a good idea. The two that I founded are not very corrupted and will be far more helpful if we grow them and build some improvements. We can afford to drop the science rate a bit.
I would go for the western passage, as it is considerably shorter than the southern one. Please see the map I posted a while ago.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Losing the GLib is a bitter blow. 
It burns to turn that pre-build into just a granary, but nothing else seems better. We don't need too many settlers, but we need them asap.
I'm going to summarize where I see us at. It helps me to be more creative in my problem-solving when I step back and see the greater situation, and perhaps my summary might help the rest of you too. You're all probably already way ahead of me on this, though.
Summary:
We're trying to climb the tech ladder as fast as possible. All other goals are secondary to this one.
Now, there are a few ways to get techs
1. Self-research, which can be broken down to:
2. Great Library tricks
3. Buy Techs by building money improvements, going zero research, stockpiling cash
4. Trade tech
At this point in our tech outlook, this is my opinion:
Option #1a won't work due to too little land; usually a bad option anyway
Option #1b is good, but we have a problem: we need Astronomy first
Option 2a is out.
Option 2b, using the Elevator, is not really possible either. We have to get at least Astronomy to be able to capture the GLib, but that means we'd have Education already.
Option 3 is, IMO, a very good one
Option 4 won't work for a very long time because we're behind the tech trading curve
So...
Let's stop research in the near future, stockpile gold, and buy techs until we capture enough land to spam science farms
I think self-researching up to Republic is important, but after that, buying techs will likely be cheaper. We, of course, need to get contacts, the faster the better.
Doing this means setting up our new island with markets, aqueducts, perhaps courts, etc. A hybrid of using the more-efficient scientists (as opposed to taxmen) to lower tech costs, and then buying the techs might be an optimal strategy. Getting Currency would be a priority.
After we build money improvements, we'll need barracks for a military push. But the money improvements should come first.
I think we should consider what city spacing pattern we want. Cxxc is the standard I prefer, but we should at least look at an ICS scenario. We might be able to get an FP if we do an ICS. Off-hand I think that getting an FP sooner on our big island will be more beneficial than saving the FP for a new landmass.
I agree with doing a palace jump to the Big Island, but we're a ways off from accomplishing that. We'll lose our granary and harbor in Sensei when we do the jump, too.
It burns to turn that pre-build into just a granary, but nothing else seems better. We don't need too many settlers, but we need them asap.
I'm going to summarize where I see us at. It helps me to be more creative in my problem-solving when I step back and see the greater situation, and perhaps my summary might help the rest of you too. You're all probably already way ahead of me on this, though.
Summary:
We're trying to climb the tech ladder as fast as possible. All other goals are secondary to this one.
Now, there are a few ways to get techs
1. Self-research, which can be broken down to:
- Play peaceful, build lots of science improvements
- Play militarily, capture lots of land, spam science farms, fewer science improvements
2. Great Library tricks
- Build/capture and steal up to Education
- And/Or use "GLib Elevator" to get us far along the tech tree
3. Buy Techs by building money improvements, going zero research, stockpiling cash
4. Trade tech
At this point in our tech outlook, this is my opinion:
Option #1a won't work due to too little land; usually a bad option anyway
Option #1b is good, but we have a problem: we need Astronomy first
Option 2a is out.
Option 2b, using the Elevator, is not really possible either. We have to get at least Astronomy to be able to capture the GLib, but that means we'd have Education already.
Option 3 is, IMO, a very good one
Option 4 won't work for a very long time because we're behind the tech trading curve
So...
Let's stop research in the near future, stockpile gold, and buy techs until we capture enough land to spam science farms
I think self-researching up to Republic is important, but after that, buying techs will likely be cheaper. We, of course, need to get contacts, the faster the better.
Doing this means setting up our new island with markets, aqueducts, perhaps courts, etc. A hybrid of using the more-efficient scientists (as opposed to taxmen) to lower tech costs, and then buying the techs might be an optimal strategy. Getting Currency would be a priority.
After we build money improvements, we'll need barracks for a military push. But the money improvements should come first.
I think we should consider what city spacing pattern we want. Cxxc is the standard I prefer, but we should at least look at an ICS scenario. We might be able to get an FP if we do an ICS. Off-hand I think that getting an FP sooner on our big island will be more beneficial than saving the FP for a new landmass.
I agree with doing a palace jump to the Big Island, but we're a ways off from accomplishing that. We'll lose our granary and harbor in Sensei when we do the jump, too.
eldar
ChiefTank
Edit: X-Post with the above....
Apologies for the brevity of plan - I was at work, no access to the save.
First a dotmap, effort #1. I reckon we can get in another 6 towns on the island.
Now for some ideas on builds. We don't want to waste some good site, particularly the two we've already settled. FP I would put at the tip of the island, as I think it will benefit more cities that way. We can always check the figures with CA2 when the time comes.
Both Akichi and Ao will get 2spt if we take off the scientists.
As Akichi isn't contributing Wealth, and has the most to gain from cultural expansion, I think we should re-deploy Akichi's citizen to get some growth and finish its temple. If we delay that another 6 turns, then the Temple will complete as it grows to size 2, negating the need for an MP or Lux tax.
Doing that drops Lit from 19 turns to 22.
Ao I would leave for now. I think the loss of beakers would delay us too long. However we might think about moving it from Wealth to a harbour eventually.
From my dotmap I like the look of Yellow then Pink. Red is where I think the FP could be built.
Swap the Palace for a Granary in Sushi and then get a Harbor built.
Apologies for the brevity of plan - I was at work, no access to the save.
First a dotmap, effort #1. I reckon we can get in another 6 towns on the island.
Spoiler dotmap :
Now for some ideas on builds. We don't want to waste some good site, particularly the two we've already settled. FP I would put at the tip of the island, as I think it will benefit more cities that way. We can always check the figures with CA2 when the time comes.
Both Akichi and Ao will get 2spt if we take off the scientists.
As Akichi isn't contributing Wealth, and has the most to gain from cultural expansion, I think we should re-deploy Akichi's citizen to get some growth and finish its temple. If we delay that another 6 turns, then the Temple will complete as it grows to size 2, negating the need for an MP or Lux tax.
Doing that drops Lit from 19 turns to 22.
Ao I would leave for now. I think the loss of beakers would delay us too long. However we might think about moving it from Wealth to a harbour eventually.
From my dotmap I like the look of Yellow then Pink. Red is where I think the FP could be built.
Swap the Palace for a Granary in Sushi and then get a Harbor built.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
eldar said:
Referencing zyxy's post above, we need 18 cities for an FP. Based on a quick eyeball count I just did, we won't have 18 cities even if we ICS the big island; we'll have like 13-14 at most.
If we ICS, we won't need aqueducts. On the other hand, if we do cxxc, we'll have much better unit support in Republic. I think cxxc is better since we won't get an FP either way.
Othniel, very good analysis. 
I also agree with your conclusion - going for a strategy that lets us make gold to buy techs will likely be the best we can hope for at this point. And I think we should persue that goal without deviations.
Do we really want to continue on Literature in that scenario? 19+ turns is a lot, and we won't have any use for libraries at all if we run 0% research. The only use I could see for it is if we manage to meet an AI that doesn't have it yet. Seems unlikely, but not totally out of the question. But is it worth the investment? I think not. Better chalk up the invested beakers as a loss and go on to more important things, rather than losing even more to something we don't need.
Researching to Republic and then Currency seems to me the only important goals. Republic might be tradeable to some of the more backwards AIs.
An FPJ is a given IMO, especially considering that we can't get an FP. The loss of buildings in Sensei is nothing to worry about, if we can get the production up on the larger island. Our start-island towns will never be better than they are, which isn't good.
ICS vs eldar's dotmap? Looking at his town placements, I agree that's the best positions we could choose for our towns, good work. With only one luxury, how large could we hope to grow those towns with a reasonable investment in luxury? Will 8 good towns be better than 12 somewhat good towns? My gut feeling is no, in particular since we don't have fresh water, and that makes a CC as good as a mined grass, so we can just as well settle. I think we should do a more thorough analysis here.
I also agree with your conclusion - going for a strategy that lets us make gold to buy techs will likely be the best we can hope for at this point. And I think we should persue that goal without deviations.Do we really want to continue on Literature in that scenario? 19+ turns is a lot, and we won't have any use for libraries at all if we run 0% research. The only use I could see for it is if we manage to meet an AI that doesn't have it yet. Seems unlikely, but not totally out of the question. But is it worth the investment? I think not. Better chalk up the invested beakers as a loss and go on to more important things, rather than losing even more to something we don't need.
Researching to Republic and then Currency seems to me the only important goals. Republic might be tradeable to some of the more backwards AIs.
An FPJ is a given IMO, especially considering that we can't get an FP. The loss of buildings in Sensei is nothing to worry about, if we can get the production up on the larger island. Our start-island towns will never be better than they are, which isn't good.
ICS vs eldar's dotmap? Looking at his town placements, I agree that's the best positions we could choose for our towns, good work
. With only one luxury, how large could we hope to grow those towns with a reasonable investment in luxury? Will 8 good towns be better than 12 somewhat good towns? My gut feeling is no, in particular since we don't have fresh water, and that makes a CC as good as a mined grass, so we can just as well settle. I think we should do a more thorough analysis here.
eldar
ChiefTank
We have 2 luxes (Wine + Incense). Markets no good, except in a zero-research strat. I like Othniel's plan. Time for bed here, play tomorrow!
Right, I didn't see the Incence 
, that makes larger towns more viable. I still think we need an analysis though (and I might do one tomorrow). And yes, the markets would be for the +50% cash alone.
, that makes larger towns more viable. I still think we need an analysis though (and I might do one tomorrow). And yes, the markets would be for the +50% cash alone.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Very good post, Othniel! I cannot see any flaws.
Eldar, the dotmap looks nice! Unfortunate that we have to settle most of the forests, but it seems unavoidable in most cases.
Some ideas:
I agree with Niklas that we need to analyze this more.
Eldar, the dotmap looks nice! Unfortunate that we have to settle most of the forests, but it seems unavoidable in most cases.
Some ideas:
- No fresh water or aqueducts (for a long time), means we'll be stuck at size 6. Coastal tiles count (our harbors are cheap) and are in fact very good, as they bring lots of commerce. This determines the density of the placement. Probably we can place a few more towns.
- Size 6 can be kept happy with 2 lux, 2 MP, 1 for free and 1 scientist. Even short term, happiness is not really a problem - run a scientist whenever a town grows unhappy or cannot work a 2fpt tile.
- 18 towns needed for an FP. I cannot fit enough on this island (I get to 15 for our whole empire, at most).
- Move the capital to Pink Dot? Not very urgent maybe, and we can build it by hand (300 shields up to 23 towns). A free palace jump might cost more than it brings (EDIT: because of loss of a good town with improvements).
- I think developing our fledgling towns will be better than hiring scientists and/or producing wealth. The latter is more efficient in the short run, but the main concern IMO is to get contacts or get to Astro. For that, we need to look at long term research and short term production (suicide galleys).
- Fastest way out of the hole is to find the AI, quickly. So we need plenty of galleys. STill, each contact lowers research cost by about 2%. Even if we meet all civs, and they all know the tech, then we still pay 44% of monopoly cost. If we are lucky, some of them are isolated and we can broker tech.
- Republic is
1400beakers
! EDIT: worse, it is 1600! Still, max research will be faster than min. - In total we have to produce 6 settlers and probably 8 workers until Astro. With a 6-turner and an 8-turner this takes roughly 35 turns. With two 6 turners it takes 30 turns + some turns to build a harbor in Sushi. Little difference, unless we want to train more workers for population transfer. Btw, do we have enough shields to run two 6-turners?
- Will we build libs? Does it pay to keep researching Lit? I guess yes, but I am not sure.
I agree with Niklas that we need to analyze this more.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Lots of good ideas being thrown around, this is excellent! I'm going to limit my response, though, to just a couple of points so that I don't write a book. Not toooo big of a book. 
Research:
I agree with both of you.
I see Lit being valuable as a trade tool only. The exception to this would be if we short-term built a few Libraries to speed Republic, but I think a prohibitive 80 shields each makes that a totally unfeasible strategy.
In the distant future, we'll probably want Libs and Unis in our main cities, but we know that the AI already knows Literature, so we could just acquire Lit when we need it. I don't think we should mass-build Libs for a long time though.
No, the only reason to keep researching Lit is, as Niklas speculated, if we can trade with some isolated AI. I'm torn on this question. I think it likely that we'll find a few Meleet-ordained backwards trading partners designed to give us a boost. But will it be worthwhile enough to delay Republic for 19 turns while we finish Lit??
Well, if we finally get contacts, I expect that most other civs will have Philo and probably CoL. If we finish Lit off now, we won't have to research Philo and CoL at monopoly cost. We might even be able to purchase one or both of them.
As zyxy pointed out, getting contacts will only lower tech cost by 2% each (thanks zyxy, did not know that!). Still, we might be able to recover the 19 more turns worth of time invested in Lit. So, I think the call on this one is very marginal, and because I expect us to finally breakthrough and get contacts
, I say let's just finish Lit off. But, again, very marginal.
Town Placement:
Yeah, I agree with you guys again. I think a strict cxxc build pattern won't make a good enough use of our tiles for a long time to come.
Still, I think it very important for us to plan on size 7 cities. We get like 3x as much free unit support in Republic that way, and unit costs will be important to manage carefully. The extra lux tax cost will pay for itself.
I like the idea to build more cities to take advantage of harbors and the high commerce values of coastal tiles.
I'm thinking like 10-ish towns on the Big Island. Enough so that until we get Aquaducts, we can maximize our tile use, but few enough so that we can get to size 7. I haven't worked out a dot map or food calcs to see if this works out.
Remember that we'll get aquaducts long before we'll get Astronomy.
Yeah, I think capital at the Pink Dot too. But I would do a free jump instead of a handbuild. We would lose a granary + harbor + 3 citizens (90 shields and 3 pop) vs 300 shields. I think 210 shields is more valuable than the 3 pop, so the free jump looks better. This is provided we have a settler on hand in Sensei to rebuild that site immediately after the jump.
Dang.
Yes, I think this might be important to look at. Also building some workers in the Ao or Akichi to improve the land, especially roads.
I lurked the Spooks thread a lot on SGOTM 12. One thing they did that was huge was to build tons and tons of workers in cycles to quickly improve the land, then add back in those workers post-hospitals (or aqueducts) for a massive beaker boost.
Using the greater growth efficiency for size 1-6, and then using worker joins for size 7 and above would be worth planning for.
Research:
Niklas said:
zyxy said:
I agree with both of you.
I see Lit being valuable as a trade tool only. The exception to this would be if we short-term built a few Libraries to speed Republic, but I think a prohibitive 80 shields each makes that a totally unfeasible strategy.
In the distant future, we'll probably want Libs and Unis in our main cities, but we know that the AI already knows Literature, so we could just acquire Lit when we need it. I don't think we should mass-build Libs for a long time though.
No, the only reason to keep researching Lit is, as Niklas speculated, if we can trade with some isolated AI. I'm torn on this question. I think it likely that we'll find a few Meleet-ordained backwards trading partners designed to give us a boost. But will it be worthwhile enough to delay Republic for 19 turns while we finish Lit??
Well, if we finally get contacts, I expect that most other civs will have Philo and probably CoL. If we finish Lit off now, we won't have to research Philo and CoL at monopoly cost. We might even be able to purchase one or both of them.
As zyxy pointed out, getting contacts will only lower tech cost by 2% each (thanks zyxy, did not know that!). Still, we might be able to recover the 19 more turns worth of time invested in Lit. So, I think the call on this one is very marginal, and because I expect us to finally breakthrough and get contacts
, I say let's just finish Lit off. But, again, very marginal. Town Placement:
Niklas said:
zyxy said:
Yeah, I agree with you guys again.
I think a strict cxxc build pattern won't make a good enough use of our tiles for a long time to come. Still, I think it very important for us to plan on size 7 cities. We get like 3x as much free unit support in Republic that way, and unit costs will be important to manage carefully. The extra lux tax cost will pay for itself.
I like the idea to build more cities to take advantage of harbors and the high commerce values of coastal tiles.
I'm thinking like 10-ish towns on the Big Island. Enough so that until we get Aquaducts, we can maximize our tile use, but few enough so that we can get to size 7. I haven't worked out a dot map or food calcs to see if this works out.
Remember that we'll get aquaducts long before we'll get Astronomy.
Yeah, I think capital at the Pink Dot too. But I would do a free jump instead of a handbuild. We would lose a granary + harbor + 3 citizens (90 shields and 3 pop) vs 300 shields. I think 210 shields is more valuable than the 3 pop, so the free jump looks better. This is provided we have a settler on hand in Sensei to rebuild that site immediately after the jump.
Republic is 1400 beakers
Dang.
zyxy said:
Yes, I think this might be important to look at. Also building some workers in the Ao or Akichi to improve the land, especially roads.
I lurked the Spooks thread a lot on SGOTM 12. One thing they did that was huge was to build tons and tons of workers in cycles to quickly improve the land, then add back in those workers post-hospitals (or aqueducts) for a massive beaker boost.
Using the greater growth efficiency for size 1-6, and then using worker joins for size 7 and above would be worth planning for.
eldar
ChiefTank
Othniel said:
I agree with the notion of an FPJ here. Sensei can be abandoned by building a settler there and capping it at size 2, so when it completes we get the option to abandon Sensei and get the settler already in place to re-found Sensei.
We need 29 bpt to go max on Republic at better than 50 turns. So we can certainly do that, and it's only going to be quicker once we have Philo and CoL.
The danger in keeping on with Lit - which is now useless to us as I don't see us building Libs even to speed up Republic, 80 shields is a bit steep IMO - is that we won't meet anyone and we won't be able to trade.
We should switch to CoL/Philo/Republic right away and abandon Lit.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Anyone know if the AI sends out suicide ships? We know from the 1000BC results that two teams had more than one contact. I doubt either team got lucky in more than one direction of their explorations. That means the team with four contacts probably found a mainland where the contacts all know each other. I can't imagine getting much for literature even if we manage to stumble upon an isolated civ someday. Our beakers invested in literature are as useless as the shields in our pre-build. Let's switch over to the republic path.
eldar
ChiefTank
The AI never send out suicide ships. They won't even risk ending a turn at sea or ocean to kill an enemy ship.
donsig
Low level intermediary
That's what I thought. I wonder if that puts us in a position to be a tech broker? Could the map be designed so that there are different groups of other civs that won't meet each other till astronomy? Or are we facing an even tougher map? It's difficult to say but right now galleys seem as important as settlers.
eldar
ChiefTank
What to do with the cities - next turn set:
Sensei Will finish its harbor & grow to size 3 next turn. Move it on to 6-turn Settlers first, will produce 1 + be part done with another by close.
Sushi Switch Palace to World's Most Expensive Granary. Build Galley (exploration), then Harbor, then Settlers on a 6/8 turn cycle.
Nibanme Switch from Wealth to Galley, slow burn but what else can it really do? If we keep it on Wealth we are negating the cost of 1 building, but next turn there will be 3 (2 Granaries, 1 Harbor). That needs 3 cities on Wealth and at best we can have 2. We will have to be resigned to negative income and the need to lower Sci at some point, but how long can we really hold on just building Wealth?
Akichi Work BG for a quicker Temple.
Ao Switch from Wealth to Temple. Work BG for a quicker Temple.
Other things that will happen:
There is currently a Warrior in a boat. Going to the island I presume for MP/barb duty. The boat will head back to Sensei to pick up the first Settler. The next town will go on Yellow Dot, it will start building anything, will be set to grow, and will only have a few shields at most by the end of the set.
Research:
Cut off Lit right away and switch to Phil for CoL->Republic later. With the immediate changes I've proposed, Phil is 19 turns. This will obviously come down in time.
Sensei Will finish its harbor & grow to size 3 next turn. Move it on to 6-turn Settlers first, will produce 1 + be part done with another by close.
Sushi Switch Palace to World's Most Expensive Granary. Build Galley (exploration), then Harbor, then Settlers on a 6/8 turn cycle.
Nibanme Switch from Wealth to Galley, slow burn but what else can it really do? If we keep it on Wealth we are negating the cost of 1 building, but next turn there will be 3 (2 Granaries, 1 Harbor). That needs 3 cities on Wealth and at best we can have 2. We will have to be resigned to negative income and the need to lower Sci at some point, but how long can we really hold on just building Wealth?
Akichi Work BG for a quicker Temple.
Ao Switch from Wealth to Temple. Work BG for a quicker Temple.
Other things that will happen:
There is currently a Warrior in a boat. Going to the island I presume for MP/barb duty. The boat will head back to Sensei to pick up the first Settler. The next town will go on Yellow Dot, it will start building anything, will be set to grow, and will only have a few shields at most by the end of the set.
Research:
Cut off Lit right away and switch to Phil for CoL->Republic later. With the immediate changes I've proposed, Phil is 19 turns. This will obviously come down in time.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Sounds like a good plan, eldar.
The switch to Philo sounds fine.
I would like to see us prioritize in a worker build. Building roads on the big island would be very helpful for beaker production.
Actually, though, if Ao and Akichi work just fish and whale tiles once they get their temples, the worker can probably wait a little longer. Perhaps the third city on the big island can start a worker as its first build...
The switch to Philo sounds fine.
I would like to see us prioritize in a worker build. Building roads on the big island would be very helpful for beaker production.
Actually, though, if Ao and Akichi work just fish and whale tiles once they get their temples, the worker can probably wait a little longer. Perhaps the third city on the big island can start a worker as its first build...
eldar
ChiefTank
How about Warrior->Worker in Ao then? It's Temple isn't as useful straight away as Akichi's.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Sounds good.
Dotmapping:
I put some efforts into refining eldar's excellent dotmap. My goal was to see how many size 7+ cities we can squeeze on the big island.
The benefits of squeezing in more size 7 cities:
- +3 unit support per city in Republic
- greater utilization of tiles
Downsides of (more) size 7 cities:
- aqueduct cost/maintenance
- possible lux tax increase
- more settlers needed
I think the long-term benefits of size 7 cities will greatly outweigh the cons.
Here is a modification of eldar's original dotmap.
Spoiler :
Here is that same modified dotmap, only with numbers to represent food potential. It's a little busy.
Spoiler :
The numbers represent food potential only. This is based on a Republic government and harbors in each city. I gave each city enough tiles to be worth a total of at least 14 food = 7 pop. Note that several cities can grow much larger.
Note also that quite a number of tiles can be swapped around for greater shield or commerce, depending on our wishes.
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