SGOTM 13 - Spooks

[Paul#42]

I don't know anything about America.

It is certainly not as impressive as the Celtic land in SGotm9 (The Gandhi-to-space-thing) or as France in SGotm12, the Yanks just got GLH, not the Pyramides or any other. It is probably better than our new land - but not necessarily. We don't know of any neighbours of theirs.

The wonders are pretty spread this time, would be nice to know on which land mass the Pyramides are - and TGL.

For now I'd rather not speculate on finding a great continent to invade. I think moving the palace twice is no shame and we won't build too many unnecessary improvements (libs, markets) to make another move a tough decission.

We will build some rax and a couple of granaries - they also make sense in corrupted areas.

 

[Andronicus]

Another thought affecting infrastructure builds (or not)

I doubt we will gain much taking 2 American towns (Denver and Baltimore).
Are we still intending gift and retake as part of the package to increase our odds of getting worthwhile acquisitions?
If so, we should earmark which towns are for gifting and not wasste shields building infrastructure there.

 

[Paul#42]

I don't think we can gift-and-retake for some time... I would be glad if we can take those two towns before the Yankees get aggressive against us...

You are certainly right to plan this but with so little space a doubt we can spare five towns from improving to use this option.

Any towns we acquire that way woult be subject to huge cultural pressure anyway. We are not in need of getting hold of foreign island towns as team Wacken was back in SGotm8 (?). So I don't see the sense to put much effort into it. If we get a town for peace after we took those two, that would be nice of course. But money or a tech might be more valuable for us.

 

[Redbad]

A space game is only about research. And reserch comes with cities and a lot of cities. If we want to win we need research time back to four turns per tech asap. And the only way to do this is to acquire cities, cities and cities.

We will need all of Americas cities (15 atm) and any other civ that isn't scientific. Having your capitol on the front makes that city flip-immune and makes local war-production possible. On a large map with seas the logistics will kill us if our core gets far from the front.

 

[Paul#42]

A space game is only about research. And reserch comes with cities and a lot of cities. If we want to win we need research time back to four turns per tech asap. And the only way to do this is to acquire cities, cities and cities.

That's a good one. I would love to reach single digits finally...
But of course you are right.

We will need all of Americas cities (15 atm) and any other civ that isn't scientific. Having your capitol on the front makes that city flip-immune and makes local war-production possible. On a large map with seas the logistics will kill us if our core gets far from the front.

But you are not advocating to leave our capital ion the old world for now, are you?

I'm aware that we might well want to move our capital to some distant land one day, but I don't favor to delay our first jump till then. Especially as I don't know at all where this will be and whether the land is so much better. It probably is. There must be some fresh water on this planet, right?

And I would not move capital unless we had a military superiority there (prerequisite anyway) and at least an improvement in sight regarding commerce and production. And that is right now the situation as well.

It's still a close call (especially the right moment) that's why I'd like to run some simulation.

 

[Redbad]

But you are not advocating to leave our capital ion the old world for now, are you?

No I don't. I just wanted to emphasise the importance of conquering lots of cities. And to warn against the feeling that the big island will be our core for a very long time.

It's alright by me that we jump the palace to the big island. And when: I'll leave to the mathematics. And building some libs there is also fine by me.

But in my vision in the "middle game" we will do things like:
workers: building roads, building mines where the core is at that moment and irrigating where the the core isn't (or isn't nomore)
cities:building workers/settlers and military and having lots of scientists.

 

[Paul#42]

Sorry, no smart chart from me (for now).
I wanted to start yesterday but I had no actual save and no internet access.

Did not bother to drive to the next internet cafe through the rain...

My main reason to jump the palace so soon is the price. I had thought it would be many more units necessary but it looks really cheap if Osaka and Tokyo stay small and the receiving capital is size 2 or so.

The downside is the loss of a really productive site that could be a worker pump with little more effort...

But I'll check tonight.

 

[Paul#42]

I just ran a quick check in CA2 that already settles the issue for me:

With capital in Kyoto we are currently doing 13spt and 21bpt. That is with two metropolisses (size 3) in the core.
With capital in Edo CA2 shows 12spt and 22bpt.

Given that on our new world our towns can (and should) grow to bigger sizes that balance will change even more to new island's favor when cities grow.

Our current core (then 30% corrupt) should be able to add casual workers - 7twf in Tokyo and 3twf in Osaka and maybe even 3twf in New-Kyoto as well, given granaries and harbors in Osaka and New-Kyoto.
Too bad it's just Kyoto that has neither of those. Bad planners we are...

So the Palace jump is obvious to me. But when?
If we built a harbor in Kyoto to spit out some two-turn-workers, that would take us ~7 turns (for harbor and to reach size 4) + 2 turns per worker.
If we start a town disbanding settler now, capital jumps in 7 turns.
We could also squeeze in a worker build in Kyoto if we need to delay to position our "army".

Maybe it's best to use the granary to build as many workers as possible without waiting (1-3) before building the settler.
That would give Osaka some time to build harbor (switch now) and granary(?) at low waste...

 

[killercane]

From what I remember of palace jump it is the size of the new palace town that matters not units. Its a function of distance plus size. Can someone dig it up or I will later if I remember.

 

[Paul#42]

I know that the target town can be influenced by placing a garrison.
CA2 calculates how many units it takes for every town you have to jump the Palace there on the Miscellaneous Page.
It also allows you to place the Palace anywhere for corruption analysis on the Economy Page.

As far as I know it is reliable.
It's not (only) size that matters

For the 350BC save it shows 7 units necessary to jump to Edo and it would be five if Osaka and Tokyo had no garrison.

 

[killercane]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=47304

There it is. You are right but pop boost will be better dont you think? 2 turn workers and add em.

 

[Paul#42]

If we had the usual amount of workers I'd agree.
But we need any worker desperately and should not join any of them. Right now we don't have even one! I can't remember a game with such a shortage of workers beyond QSC time...

So I think it's way easier for us to send all our warriors but two and delay the worker build in Edo (or orange dot) for a while to reach size 2 or even 3 in the meantime...

Actually I'd say we build the worker, let Edo grow to size 2 and do the jump when Osaka and Tokyo are size 2 also. A single warrior in Edo should do he job, then.

That's 11 turns till the jump if Edo finishes that worker and grows to size 2 again.
In the meantime Kyoto can build two workers in 5 turns and a eight-turn disbanding settler for the jump.
Osaka I'd suggest to build a harbor now and a couple of workers then to shrink to size 2. Tokyo only workers.

the plan

On turns 110 and 118 the BG must be available to assign on growth, for 114 the plains (1 shield) is sufficent (Osaka should take the fish to make sure that's not chosen by the governor...)
Kyoto does not add too much to research in that span...
(cumulated beakers just for Kyoto. You don't expect me to do this for the whole empire, right? )
Any mistakes?

 

[killercane]

Well there is no food bonus down there, or fresh water until we get a new government so I would like to see 7-10 workers there. The sooner we get the land worked the sooner we max out our research.

I havent looked at the save but we can make 3 t workers without a harbor and 2 turn workers after a 7 turn harbor IIRC; so both equal about 21 turns, if we want more workers harbor is better if less just make them 3 turners. Making workers puts us quicker to max size and we can then be making some important horses there in Edo...

 

[Paul#42]

Well there is no food bonus down there, or fresh water until we get a new government so I would like to see 7-10 workers there. The sooner we get the land worked the sooner we max out our research.

We get extra food with harbors as well in our new world.
Without culture just +1fpt each in Satsuma and Kagoshima, but Edo would get +1fpt on the Palace expansion after ten turns.
The research would already increase if we could jump right now. In 13 turns form now we could have some ten tiles roaded over there improving that ratio even more.

I havent looked at the save but we can make 3 t workers without a harbor and 2 turn workers after a 7 turn harbor IIRC; so both equal about 21 turns, if we want more workers harbor is better if less just make them 3 turners. Making workers puts us quicker to max size and we can then be making some important horses there in Edo...

Without a harbor, in the old world we could only do four-turn workers (3x3=9<10) but we could do them in both towns that share the cow. Osaka would need a granary though.

Are you suggesting to build those seven workers all in Kyoto before doing the Palace jump? In the meantime Osaka and Tokyo also could do some workers, even without granary. A worker in Tokyo takes 7 turns (if we want to maintain size), Osaka same.
But that's what they also could do when the Palace is jumped.

What urges me to get away from that island is the lack of happiness. We repeatedly have to use the lux slider when we reach size above 3. Two luxuries would improve that a bit.
And the lack of productive tiles. 11 BGs = 22spt we have on the new island compared to 4spt shared by three towns in our old world.

I think the schedule I drafted is a good compromise to leave the island with a decent preparation time to connect some tiles and and make the benefit of a jump worth while. Producing 2-turn-workers in Kyoto is also tempting, but I think we should spare to build a harbor in a town we will soon disband. Also both other towns would not get any food bonus if Kyoto needs all three extra food tiles.

The slow growth in the New World can be "used" to produce some military to take the american towns.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm convinced with moving palace sooner rather than later. No harbour in Kyoto pre palace jump, a harbour afterwards may well be a sound investment (after rebuilding granary) - we'll see later.

 

[killercane]

Im pretty for it but want the best possible worker, worked tiles, and population factor on the new island in 30 turns. I would just like to see those compared. To get the +1 from fish we need to build harbors down there and thats a while.

 

[Andronicus]

I think we need to cont max reseach to lit - we could buy 16g for 1gpt - doing this when running low on funds is better than reducing research to save coins.

If we build 2 workers in Kyoto before settler (can be rushed - just sell granary immed before abandoning), a couple in Osaka and 1-2 in Tokyo - these plus 3-4 warriors can be transported to the new world -> Edo. Add a worker from each new world town and this gives us about 7 or 8 workers which should quickly improve the lands ready for palace jump.

 

[Paul#42]

Good idea to fund our research with loans.

Maybe we should even take one loan (this turn) from America as insurance against attacks for 20 turns? 2gpt for 31g?

Anybody see us attacking earlier?

 

[Paul#42]

the plan

Any mistakes?

One I already found: On turn 121 we'd need another shield to assign a scientist in 122 to have 0fpt for the settler build to disband the town.
So it takes BG and cow in 122 (or earlier) to have 27 shields after 122.

 

[Andronicus]

Another option for sooner palace jump is to rush settler on turn 118, getting the extra 20 shields and dropping back to size 1. The citizen would then be allocated to scientist and option given to disband following inter turn.

If Edo doesnt build worker, but rather starts rax, it would have an extra pop giving it 3 more points towards being jump site.
Put all the warriors into Edo and unless other towns are size 3 it is certain to be site of new palace.

This gets palace jump 4 turns earlier (at cost of whip unhappiness which would be borne by Tokyo (might have to employ a scientist on turn we jump).

I'm not convinced this is worthwhile for 4 turns, but I put it up for discussion anyway