SGOTM 14 - Elite

[CommandoBob]

We can probably weaken, but not remove, Babylon from our mainland in this turnset. We can gift the new Zulu home anytime after we build it, but we have to wait 4 turns before we can war again with them. We'll make peace with the Arabs and Russians as soon as we can.

Big Picture
So who is next on our hit list? I know we're waiting on the American peace to end (15 turns). And the Ottomans and Arabs are contained. We'll deal with the Zulu shortly and relocate them. Same with Russia. Rome, Aztecs and Greece has helped us out by building their own prision cities. So that is 8 civs out of 24. What about the other 16?

I don't think our past warring strategies are going to help us win. In the past, we've gone to war, captured some AI towns and then made peace in order to give them their prison city. Which means we war, make peace and then have to wait 20 more turns to get that AI down to one city. It just takes too long.

Here is what I hinted at in the previous post.

Instead of giving that new, to-be-built city up by Basra to the Zulu, let's give it to the Celts. Then we invade CeltLand and raze all the current Celt cities. Everyone of them. We then reseed CeltLand with more cities, each one destined to be a prison city. CeltLand has 4 resources on it (2 Saltpeter, 1 Horse and 1 Iron) so we build on those tiles and rush some cheap culture buildings in them. Those 4 will always be ours. Any others are giftable.

Once everything is settled, we gift each of the remaining civs one city on CeltLand. We do this before, long before, we declare on them. Since we know where there last city is, in former CeltLand, we don't have to worry about saving their last city any longer.

I mean, when we attack France, I want us to just roll through France, and then do the same to the next civ, just like we would do in a typical Domination/Conquest game.

 

[Kulko]

I agree with your assessment of the strategy, but to be fair, our main problem was tht most of these wars were started by a pemature declaration of an AI(America, Russia twice, Babylon).

Also I am not sure if you realized, but PB has prepared 3 Prison cities in our desert and I have added 1 more in the tundra near Istanbul.

I want to give one in the north to the Zulu, because its farther away from there former core, that the desert ones. For the Celts we can use one of the many desert cities.

Creating one or two Islands to be the future prisons is certainly fine, and I wouldn't worry too much about ressources, as long as they are not our only source of the commodity.

 

[CommandoBob]

Okay, we give our next victim a prison city before we attack.

Which way are we attacking?

Celts to the west, Inca/France to the east or head down south?

I favor taking out the Celts, but really think we should finish off America first and then use the survivors to help battle the Celts. And then ship those units somewhere else to expand the influence of Portugal. We have 15 turns of peace with America, so I don't see a need to rush there. Unless we wanted to take out the Celts first and then deal with the Yanks.

We have Carracks near France, but I expect France to be tougher than the Celts or Americans. I don't know why; I just fear their Musketeer. But we could start on France or Inca in the next ten turns.

I haven't given it much thought to our next victim. I'll try to do that later today.

 

[Kulko]

Of all the external targets France is the best I think, but I would make sure that the situation in Babylon is secure before stripping units from the mainland.

On Infrastructure front we should sell our Irons and disconnect the gunpowder to build horses for a later upgrade again, I think.

 

[CommandoBob]

Of all the external targets France is the best I think, but I would make sure that the situation in Babylon is secure before stripping units from the mainland.

France it is.

On Infrastructure front we should sell our Irons and disconnect the gunpowder to build horses for a later upgrade again, I think.

Who has Leonardo's Workshop? We don't; we were building it in Bosworth Field. And I don't see it being built by anyone in the turn logs.

I don't do massive upgrades like Horses -> Cavalry, so I'm not sure of the logic and trade-offs involved. I see that once we get Leonardo's it will be cheaper to upgrade than build, and faster, too, since Horses are 30 shields and Cavs are 70. It is the details I am fuzzy on. I'm not opposed to the idea but I am unclear on the mechanics and ramifications.

I will do a Wonder check when I get home. Should have included it in the Preflight.

 

[Kulko]

Leo has been snatched by Mongol.

As for rushing, this is really PBs field of experience but I can give the Summary as I understand them.

We have finished research and will therefore accumulate cash, which we should spend on things useful for conquests, i.e. Cavs.

There are two methods: Cash rushing and mass upgrade. Rushing costs 4 gp per shield and probably a bit more unless you have the perfect target for shortrushes ready.

Mass Upgrade costs only 3 gp per Shield even without Leo, so it is still the more efficient in theory. OTOH it is more complicated to implement, especially when you have cities build on resources.

Basically we want to cut all our supplies of Iron and saltpeter. Then we set all builds to HM, and produce for a few turns. We also save all the money we make. Then we reconnect th saltpeter and upgrade the HM to Cav. then you disconnect again.

We also need to get rid of the iron, because otherwise we would just produce Knights which are not really cheaper.

The problem from my experience is, that you do not collect enough money in 4 turns to upgrade all the HM your core will produce. so in reality there are phases of reconnect and disconnect of a few turns each, and I do not know the best number.

Thats all I know about it, if you need more details you need to find PB. As I understand it, it is the most efficient way to spend money, and I invite you to try it out, but if you feel insecure about it, just go for normal short-rushes.

 

[CommandoBob]

We've got cities sitting on top of Iron as I recall, so we can't disconnect Iron as easily as Saltpeter. Just have to sell it, like you said eariler.

Selling Saltpeter and Iron means that we build Horses for offense. It also means that we build Spears for defense. Or that we only build Horses, since the Horses will upgrade to Cav and defend like Pikes. But if we have to defend at times I would prefer to defend with the cheaper Pike than a Cav.

We may need to upgrade some Spears to Pikes when we do the Horses to Cavalry upgrade.

I hope Mongolia is near by, so we can grab Leonardo's Workshop rather soon and thus save on upgrade costs.

 

[Whomp]

Do we really need to connect/disconnect? It seems to me that we'll be able to short rush all the cavs you'll need. As far as the French go do they have musketeers? My recollection is the Celts/Americans were a lot more backward than the French.

 

[CommandoBob]

Leonardo's Workshop
Leonardo's Workshop is in Ta-Tu of the Mongols; it is still in the fog. Mongolia is to our east. France, Inca and the Iroqouis are natural targets on the path to liberating the Workshop.

France and Iroquois both lack Monotheism and Engineering. No Musketeers for Joan. Inca lacks Engineering and Theology. Mongols lack Military Tradition.

So maybe we take out France and then leapfrog to the Mongols?

The Great Lighthouse
The Great Lighthouse is in Pasargadae (10) of Persia, which is 8S-6SW of Nineveh. Too far away for immediate consideration. But, if no one learns Navigation (and with foreign wars we can almost guarentee that no one will), then this wonder will let us have extra ocean movement all game long.

Germany, Mongols and Persia are the civs to watch for Magellan's Voyage.

 

[Kulko]

Do we really need to connect/disconnect? It seems to me that we'll be able to short rush all the cavs you'll need.

My two cents, because it is the better strategy then cash rushing and this is a good game to learn it.

We don't risk anything, because we are way behind anyway. We are a group and can discuss our errors and will learn the most from it.

But in the End its a poersonal decision if you want to put a bit of extra effort into an already big turnset.

 

[CommandoBob]

Before we DoW on the Celts we should sell them Monarchy or Republic for all their gold. Next turn, they should revolt in order to change governments. We attack during the revolution. Sure, we'll kick off their Golden Age when/if a Galliec Sword wins its first battle, but it will be a wasted Golden Age since they can't build anything while their cities are in turmoil. And long before their GA is over they will have only one city.

Not really planning to do this my turnset, but wanted to post the idea for others to use.

 

[Kulko]

Well Celts are religious so they will only stay in Anarchy for 1 turn. We should still gift them a government to avoid heavy drafting.

 

[Whomp]

Yeah I'm not sure how much of a benefit it would be to sell them a government versus a non-military tech. Monarchy would be worse since it gives them so much more unit support and they'll use it and republic will help them generate more cash versus a despotic government.

I still don't see the point of cash rushing a horse for 3g versus short rushing for 4g when we need to get units right away.

 

[CommandoBob]

I didn't take time to check on the Celt's traits. I just assumed it would work as I hoped.

 

[socralynnek]

BTW, I am unavailable for at least a week until 8th of Feb.

 

[CommandoBob]

00 0450 AD

Move the Mace Army towards Mpdono to deal with any threats in the Babylonian galley. The Army has full movement but is on an unroaded hill, so it doesn't get very far. I moved it SE onto what I thought was grass; it was a hill, so that fizzeled.
The three vCavs in Troy move to the Babylonian front, arriving at Iwo Jima.
Could use a Jungle Road at Dogger Bank to connect to the Babylonian road system.
SettlerToBabylon (Baghdad) begins walking south and southeast.
OverseasSettler (Peipusse) heads to Teutoburger Wald.
Drat. Stopped a Zulu slave about to complete a road.

Sink a Greek Galley off the coast of America, Carrack promotes to Elite (1 of 1).
​

Mongols and Iroquois sign an MA on us. We are at war with Hiwathta.
Mongols and France sign an MA on us. We are at war with Joan.

Frence galleys sail away.

Iroquois Archer from Allegheny captures Bajor (1 of 2).

Bajor

Babylon wants to talk, so we listen. If we give Astronomy, Babylon will give peace. I don't think so.
Babylon then drops off an Ancient Cavalry near The Alamo.

Flamborough Head vCarrack -> vCarrack in 4.
Teutoburger Wald harbor -> vCararck in 4.
Bunker Hill vCav -> vCav in 9.
Diu vCarrack -> vCarrack in 14.
Pointers settler -> settler in 30.
Prison City rExplorer -> rExplorer in 20.

Volcano by Alexandria is now active.
[IBT]

01 0460 AD

We didn't need those two DoWs.

New vCav in Bunker Hill has 8 roads to get to Bajor and then attacks the redlined Archer.

Bajor

One shot and the city is ours again (2 of 3). Bajor begins another settler.

Mace Army removes the Ancient Cavalry (3 of 4).

We capture an Iroquois worker outside Allegheny.

Prison City 5, near Basra and Antalya.
Wake Pike in Istanbul and send to Prison City 5.

We make peace with Arabia and get their bank of 21 gold.
We make peace with Russia and get an ROP as part of the deal. Russia is broke.

Battle of Ellipi (5)
Crusader Army (7/8) vs. rMusket, Army wins (4 of 5).
eHorse vs. rSpear, Horse wins (5 of 6).

Ellipi

Ellipi is ours, along with four slaves and four resisters. Send slaves 2N to begin a jungle road.
We now control Babylon's Saltpeter.

(Later I realized that I should have just razed the city, but not at the time.)

Heroes of Boston (eKnight*) attack the AC outside of Ellipi, hoping to drive it away. They don't (5 of 7), but do damage the AC.

Send to Carracks into Dogger Bank. They will move units to Ellipi until the Jungle Road is built.

vCav wanders into a Babylon Pike, Pike dies and we promote to Elite (6 of 8).

​

[IBT]
We defeat a Bab Mace (7 of 9).
French galleys sail home.
Mongols drop off three units (1 vPike and 2 vMace) into Marshes by The Alamo.

Wolf 359 market -> vMusket in 5.
Sevastopol vCav -> vCav in 8.

02 0470 AD

We clear out the Pike and AC by Ellipi (9 of 11).
We empty Ellipi.
We kill an AC inside Russian borders (10 of 12).
We land units in Ellipi and then move them to pillage Babylon's Iron next turn.
Jungle Road to Ellipi will take five turns.

Mace Army kills Mongol Pike and Mace (12 of 14).
We lose an eKnight to a Bab Musket (12 of 15).

Cycle through the cities.
Camp Elite vCav in 2 -> temple, rush for 72 of 1410 gold, temple -> vCav in 1.
Agincourt vCav in 4 -> temple, rush for 64 of 1338 gold, temple -> vCav in 2.
Teutoburger Wald vCarrack in 3 -> vCav in 7.


International
Build an embassy with Korea for 90 of 1274 gold.

Seoul 470 AD

Spoiler :

Build an embassy with Maya for 67 of 1184 gold.

Chichen Itza 470 AD

Spoiler :

Build an embassy with Hittites for 63 of 1117 gold.

Hattusas 470 AD

Spoiler :

Build an embassy with India for 61 of 1054 gold.

Delhi 470 AD

Spoiler :

Then go looking for MAs vs. China.
Korea wants a bunch but settles for 37 gpt. Done.

Korea

Maya want Monotheism but 19 gpt will do instead. Done.

Maya

Hittites want Theology or 47 gpt. Nah, we'll wait. These guys aren't very close to China.
India is easier to please, Construction and 5 gpt will do the trick. Done.

India

993 gold, +334 gpt.
​

[IBT]
Remaining Mongol Mace attacks the Mace Army and redlines it before dieing (13 of 16).
Mongols land three more units around The Alamo (vMace, rArcher and rSpear).

Persia wants to talk. They offer Dyes for Ivory and 47 gpt. We decline. No war.

Bab Archer retreats a wounded vCav (13 of 17).
Greece lands units in America (vHorse and rHorse).

Camp Elite vCav -> vCav in 4.
Medina vCarrack -> vCarrack in 40.
Cantigny settler -> settler in 30.
Trafalgar vCarrack -> vCarrack in 8.

Volcano near Alexandria erupts but the city survives.


03 0480 AD

America
eKnight and eHorse remove the Greek intruders (15 of 19).

Mainland
eCav and vMace remove Mace and Spear, leaving the Archer for now (17 of 21).
The Mace Army is at 2/13, so I move it out of The Alamo. If the Mongols capture it we can take it back. Harder to replace an Army.

We stop a Bab Archer (18 of 22).
We pillage the Bab Iron and then leave the country (for a while).

Cycle Through the Cities
Troy vCav in 5 -> temple, rush for 96 of 1327 gold, temple -> vCav in 3.
Lepanto vCav in 7 -> temple, rush for 72 of 1231 gold, temple -> vCav in 4.

Internationa
Build an embassy with Sumeria for 96 of 1159 gold.

Ur 480 AD

Spoiler :

Build an embassy with Persia for 66 of 1063 gold.

Persepolis 480 AD

Spoiler :

997 gold +335 gpt.

​

[IBT]
The Alamo

Mongols capture The Alamo.

Tarawa settler -> settler in 30.
Agincourt vCav -> vCav in 8.

04 0490 AD

Battle of The Alamo

eCav 3/5 vs. rArcher 2/3, and The Alamo is our again (19 of 23).

Battle of Akkad (8)
Knight Army 8/8 vs. rMusket, Army wins (20 of 24).
eKnight vs. rMusket, Knight retreats (20 of 25).
eKnight vs. rMusket 2/3, Musket wins (20 of 26).
eKnight vs. rMusket 1/3, Knight wins (21 of 27).

Akkad

And Akkad is ours, until we raze it, gaining 3 slaves.

Cycle Through the Cities
Hire some taxmen where our city growth has stopped.

Internationa
Build an embassy with Rome for 64 of 1327 gold.

Rome 490 AD

Spoiler :

Build an embassy with Inca for 55 of 1263 gold.

Cuzco 490 AD

Spoiler :

Egypt, France and Iroquois refuse our envoys.
Mongols want Military Tradtion for peace.
Greece will pay 2 gpt for peace.
Japan will give all their gold (4) in return for peace.

I sign peace with Greece for 7 gold and 2 gpt (they have their own prision cities on islands).
I sign peace with Japan for 4 gold, even though they could be our foes shortly. We need to gift them a city before we invade their homeland.

Peace with these two makes Flamborough Head and Diu very unhappy. A fisherman becomes a tax collectoer in FH; in Diu we hire a clown and a taxman.
​

[IBT]
Aztecs drop off two units (vJag, rSword) around Iwo Jima. I don't think they are here to ask to borrow a cup of sugar.

Mongols want to speak. Still want us to give MilTrad for peace. No.

Germans want our attention. TM for TM. No.

Bab Archer dies attacking a Knight (22 of 28).

Flamborough Head vCarrack -> vCarrack in 4.
Maxia vCav -> vCav in 8.
The Somme vCav -> vCav in 8.

05 0500 AD

Per Map Stat, Mongols have learned Military Traditon.

Before we ask them to leave, we build an embassy with the Aztecs for 54 of 1559 gold.

Tenochtitlan 500 AD

Spoiler :

Battle for Nineveh (9)
vCav vs. vMusket, Musket wins (22 of 29).
vCav vs. vMusket, Cav retreats (22 of 30).
vCav vs. vMusket, Cav wins (23 of 31).
vCav vs. rMusket, Cav retreats (23 of 32).
vCav vs. vMusket 3/4, Cav wins (24 of 33).
vCav vs. rMusket 2/3, Cav wins (25 of 34).
eKnight vs. AC, AC wins (25 of 35).
vCav vs. AC 3/5, Cav wins (26 of 36).

Nineveh

And Ninveh is ours. Briefly. And then it is ruins.

Now we talk to the Aztecs.

Ask them to leave...

Aztec Reply

and they delcare war.

The Jungle Road to Ellipi is now complete. We use it move a Cav and take out the Aztec Sword, while another vCav vacates the Jag Warrior and becomes Elite, too (28 of 38).
We sink the Aztec galley (29 of 39).
We lose a vCav taking out a Bab Musket by Kambula (29 of 40).
We take out a French galley by Medina (30 of 41).

International
We build an embassy with Greece for 73 of 1505 gold.

Athens 500 AD

Spoiler :

We build an embassy with Ottomans for 24 of 1432 gold.

Antayla 500 AD

Spoiler :

Egypt will give up all 35 gold to have peace with us.
Iroqouis and France won't talk to us.

Start sending workers towards The Alamo to drain the marshes.
​

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

Only five turns played. And no way to get the other five done tonight.

Sort of a bust. France, Iroquois and Aztecs are now at war with us. Greece and Japan are at peace. We have captured/razed 3 Babylonian cities. We have embassies with everyone we can.


Babylon Area

Spoiler :

On the mainland we have only two Babylonian cities to worry about. We need some turns of healing and reinforcement, but their days are numbered. They have the city of Uruk on an island, so once these cities are gone we can ignore Babylon.

Zulu Area

Spoiler :

If the Mongols stop dropping off suicide units here, the troops around The Alamo can heal and then attack the current Zulu capital, once we give them a prison city somewhere. Move everyone into the jungles N of Isandhlwana on Turn 1 (even Maces) and attack away on Turn 2.


Other Stuff
We need to begin gifting cities to everyone as soon as we can. Then, if they make war, we don't have to baby them for 20 turns. France is going to be a pain to reduce down to one city now that we are at war.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't feel like we have a coherent plan on what we are doing. Some of that is because we've been the attacked and have had to respond to the game. And at other times it seems like we just aren't thinking ahead. Or, we're not sharing our thoughts in the thread. And like I said earlier, it could just be me.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Apologies for going awol for a bit there; I've been giving all my attention to the Aztec game, trying to finally get that COTM eptathlon nailed. Fingers crossed.

Other Stuff
We need to begin gifting cities to everyone as soon as we can. Then, if they make war, we don't have to baby them for 20 turns. France is going to be a pain to reduce down to one city now that we are at war.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't feel like we have a coherent plan on what we are doing. Some of that is because we've been the attacked and have had to respond to the game. And at other times it seems like we just aren't thinking ahead. Or, we're not sharing our thoughts in the thread. And like I said earlier, it could just be me.

Agreed, we never had a good enough plan. In particular, your point about gifting towns asap is something we should have thought of earlier, i.e. the sooner we assign junk towns to the AI, the less logistical problem we get from an unexpected war. So yes, let's start handing out towns right now. Those "Prison City" desert towns should all be given out, and shall we also start handing out the towns in America?
As for the recipients of these gifts, we should choose AI that we are pretty sure we will be attacking. Bear in mind that we are only looking for domination, so we don't necessarily have to fight them all. If there are civs that we are currently at war with, but we won't be able to invade properly within the next 20 turns (and that must surely apply to several) then we should seek peace with them. We badly need to get out of this AI dogpile.

On how to build cavs.
Well, disconnect/reconnect is simply the cheapest way to build cavalrymen, the most efficient conversion of our empire's net resources (shields and commerce) to military might this side of Replaceable Parts. The efficiency gain is marginal without Leonardo, and if we short rush rather than upgrade in the meantime, that's not a huge loss. But with Leonardo it becomes significant, so I suggest that we concentrate on getting hold of that wonder, and then applying disconnect/reconnect strictly.
There is one minor drawback to this, which is that our defensive unit would be the musket (upgraded from a spear) not the pike, which is more efficient in terms of DEF per shield. Of course, building defensive units is not the kind of thing I like doing, but we may need some to make landing on these little AI islands. Unless armies can be relied upon to go unattacked?

I don't do massive upgrades like Horses -> Cavalry, so I'm not sure of the logic and trade-offs involved. I see that once we get Leonardo's it will be cheaper to upgrade than build, and faster, too, since Horses are 30 shields and Cavs are 70. It is the details I am fuzzy on. I'm not opposed to the idea but I am unclear on the mechanics and ramifications.

Re mechanics, my prefered method is... (1) unhook all our iron sources, and trade away any that are underneath towns. (2) unhook all our saltpeter. If we have any underneath towns, then those towns need to go. (3) Choose one saltpeter, preferably on flat land (there is one near the Prison Cities which will do nicely) and have 3 workers and an explorer sit on top of it. (4) Set all barrack towns to build horses. (5) Set the game preferences to ask for build orders after unit construction (already done iirc). (6) The 3 workers re-hook the one saltpeter, the explorer idles. (7) During the interturn, whenever a horse builds, zoom into the town and upgrade it from the unit's right-click menu, leaving the town building e.g a colosseum. (8) During the next mainturn, the explorer chops the saltpeter again. (9) Use F1 to change all those colosseum builds to horses. (10) Continue from step 6 again. The cavalryman rolls straight out of the barracks, ready to smite the latest AI landing party, or race off to the front line.
In practice, our empire will produce too many shields and not enough cash to use disconnect/reconnect in every town, especially before we get hold of Leonardo. So some towns just get to build cavalries the long way. Ideally, corrupt towns should be operated as tax farms to maximise our upgrade power.

 

[Whomp]

OK finish the Babs and Zulus (after gifting). Then who? I'd think going towards the Mongols may mean a few others taken out along the way.
If Rodent doesn't call a pick up I'll play tomorrow.
Roster
CommandoBob - just played
Rodent - ?
socralynnek - out till Feb 8th
Whomp - up or on deck
Paperbeetle - on deck or in the hole
Kulko -

 

[CommandoBob]

I don't have a reasonably sized world map, but the Mongols are East of the Iroquois, who are East of France.

We could try to raid Ta-tu, which is where Leanardo's Workshop is located. Ta-tu is still shrouded in the black fog, but we have a pretty good idea of where it is.

We might find it easier to head West (through America and Celts) to attack the Mongols. They are obviously sending units via the shortest route. So they won't be expecting an invasion from their East. Just a quick check of the world map that I do have and heading West, after the Celts and Yanks, we have Greece and Egypt. We are at peace with Greece and Egypt is ready to make peace.

Maybe we sign them to MAs on the Mongols? They are right next door.