SGOTM 14 - Elite

Well I'll give it a try, but I doubt we'll get the whole Mongol army piling up on the nearest mainland tile trying to jump across the channel. The AI is pretty moronic, but one thing it can usually do is decide whether something is reachable or not. And of course, in terms of being able to see our units, it doesn't matter to the AI whether the units are in (or on the border of) the AI territory or not, because it doesn't have line-of-sight fog.
There is quite a large expanse of Mongolian influence on the German island, including an unhooked saltpeter. I will try to get a settler down here to do an offensive settle before we lift the Mongolian culture - it will be very handy to have a ready-made foothold on this island if we want to attack the Germans. There are similar territorial confusions on the southwest tip of the Greek island, although I'm not sure we can exploit them before we want to attack Greece, as that island is fairly high on our list of targets.
 
Sorry about the mm'ing. It was a bit late but I try to keep that up for the next player.

Using a bikini babe trick might be fine but if you do that I'd attack someone else until we get muskets or crusaders in the mix. I swear I've had 2 unit armies during some variant SG I've been in and they were not attacked when fully healthy. Since there's 4 armies on old Iroquois territory and one is a knight army I would be willing to risk that army to see.

I didn't make the Korean trade because I didn't want to give them their UU. I'm not sure it will matter too much though in the long run. Getting another required tech wouldn't hurt while we're running 100% cash.

On the Celts, Camoludunum should be able to be taken out next turn and Entremont soon after that. Question is whether to take out the Romans or Japanese after the Celts are done (Greeks have 10 turns on a deal). It might be helpful to keep a fully healthy army for the landing.There's plenty of shipping available to get the bulk of the units there in 2 or 3 turns. I'm inclined to take the Romans and work east.
 
Not criticizing the way you left the towns. Just adjusting them to suit my style. I'm planning to lean on the food a bit, to run the commerce farms a bit larger. And I'll be preparing the resources for some disconnect/reconnect action. :ninja:
 
I don't really have an idea atm on how to take on the Mongols, so I am of no help at the moment. We should probably act not too slow as otherwise they might be able to get some more cities. They might even be strong enough atm to pose a threat on really killing someone. So we can't do nothing against them.
 
I don't think the AI will pile for a defender who is on another island . I think our best chance is to draw them away by landing somewhere else on their Island.
But I like the IDea of settling a town on their bit of the german Island and find a base for attacks there.
 
Well I got a whole turn played last night! Woohoo go me. I spent most of the night agonizing over how to proceed against the Mongol horde. Finally I settled on trying for a mass landing on the mountains next to Tabriz, in about 4 turns time (i.e. when I can get some ships over there). There's also a ship heading for their southern peninsula too, so if the big landing doesn't go to plan, we can try some push/pull work with decoys.
I have also put the German-Mongol combat settlement into action. Note that if the Mongols send some troops over the channel to take that town, we should just give it away to some friendly (we have friends? The Babs just rejoined the Mongol alliance against us!) AI with whom we can get ROP. For the same reason, I have ROPped with the Quois, whose last town is on the Incan island. I am also looking at the southern peninsula of Alpha continent. We can use a settlement & temple there to push our culture onto a couple of tiles on the Korean continent.
The alternative to all this careful edging onto people's islands is simply to start using ROP rapes. Anybody have any preferences for or against this? Indeed, if we want to comit ourselves to that strategy, the Mongols might be the perfect victims to start with.
 
Are you still alive PB?

Or have you really been drawn into the Abyss named Agricola Online?
 
No no, I'm still here, and I've even managed to play a whole extra turn! It takes me a whole night to play a single turn - this game seems to have the same effect on my brain that the last SG did to my computer; grinding it to a near-standstill. I stare at the game for hours, contemplating all the different possible unit moves and trades and town builds, and not getting any sense at all of what I should be doing. It's like I forgot how to play Civ altogether. Scary.
So what's the latest from 670ad? Well, I am amassing units to go to Mongolia; there should be 7 carrackloads landing in 690ad. And in the west, the fleet is sailing south between Celtia (now devoid of the original occupants) and Portugal, carrying a force of cavs and cannon, though I'm not quite sure whether they are heading to Mongolia, Egypt, Rome or Japan. I'd better give that some thought before they next move, heh.

I'll upload tonight, regardless of how much further I have played.
 
Just so you know I tested the 2 unit cav army on a old game and did not get attacked by cavs. It's highly unscientific but just so you know.

From my perspective, hitting the Japanese or Romans first makes the most sense. It's a question of whether the path east or west afterwards makes a difference.
 
I have uploaded halfway through 700 ad.
Here are my notes for the turns...
Spoiler 650ad to 700ad :

650ad

Give Wang Metallurgy for Banking + 76g. The top dogs know Democracy and Economics too.
Embassy the Quois (33g). Huamanga has 3 pikes, 2 clowns (starvation), and is building a market. It has 1 lux (wool) and is runnning 30% science (5 bpt).
Give Watha ROP. That should be our springboard into the Inca.

Lose an elite horse attacking redlined gallic. Finish the job with a 2/5 elite cav. [1-1]
LOad an elite* mace from Celtic island onto a carrack, to send towards the Mongols.
Mobilize the explorers to start cutting resources.

650 > 660

Agree to leave Incan waters.
2 gallics attack Lugdunum; 1 loses, 1 retreats. [2-1]
Babylon allies with the Mongols against us. Hey ho, that will give us the opportunity to found more prison cities inside their existing territory.

Camp Elite: cav > settler. Perennial population problem, this place.
Niagara starves, slave > slave.
Agincourt: cav > cav.
Wolf: cav > cav.
Lepanto: harbour > cav.
Prison City: explorer > wealth.
Tayocaba: rushed temple > settler.

660ad

Short rush settler in Camp Elite.
Medway founded on Celtic island.

Chain 1 settler onto the Quois island, to form a canal through the lake, and 1 to head south to settle in Mongol territory on the German island.
2/5 elite cav kills stranded gallic. [3-1]
2 cav kills spears in Camulodunum. Cav kills redlined horse to take the town (keep it for now, as a jumping-off point for the next town). [6-1]
Chain 5 cavs into Camulodunum, and attack Entremont (3 wins, 1 loss, 1 retreat, 1 promotion). 4/5 elite cav from Lugdunum attacks and wins. [10-2]

660 > 670

China and India agree peace.
Maya and China agree peace.
Germany allies the Quois against France.
The Celts send an archer out of Badajoz.

Camp Elite: settler > cav.
Flamboro: settler > cav.
Waterloo: cannon > barracks.
Somme: cav > cav.
Teutoburger: templar.

The Mongols complete Magellan in their southernmost town, Kazan.

670ad

Found Schooneveld at the eastern end of the Quois lake.
Rush carrack in Niagara. Disband a cannon in Schooneveld and rush carrack there too.
Rush settler in Leyte Gulf. Rush temple in Istanbul.
Drop a settler into the Mongolian desert near Berlin.

Army attacks Entremont and wins, losing 4 hp - glad I didn't use a cav. 3 cavs finish the job (1 promotion, 1 retreat) - raze the Oracle. [13-2]
Cav kills archer near Badajoz. [14-2]

670 > 680

Egypt dows the Mayans.
Babylon dows the Greeks.

Watch as muskets shuffle around Mongolia, and cavs shuffle around Germany.

Istanbul: temple > settler.
Niagara: carrack > worker.
Leyte Gulf: settler > settler.
Manassas: cannon > barracks.
Goa: barracks > cav.
Schooneveld: carrack > carrack.

680ad

Pillage the roads at Badajoz.

Found Jutland, encroaching on Korean territory; start temple.
Found Heligoland Bight next to Berlin; start harbour. Germany will probably dow over that heheh.
Found Myonessus on the southern tip of Celtia; start settler.

Disband another cannon (should have been a slave) and rush carrack at Schooneveld.
Rush temples at Powder Alarm and Ticonderoga.

680 > 690

Maya and Hittites agree peace.
Monty asks for peace. Any reason why I should accept? I don't think so.
Germans and Mongols agree peace.
Greece and Russia agree peace.
The Germans restrain themselves from attacking Heligoland.
The Greeks steal our landing spot in Mongolia! Total disaster.
Julius offers alliance against Germany. I don't think so pal. In fact, you'll be seeing some different military action from us real soon.

Powder Alarm: temple > settler.
Bunker Hill: aqueduct > cav.
Ticonderoga: temple > carrack.
Schooneveld: carrack > settler.

690ad

Gift Roman Prison, aka Prison City, to Julius. Then remember that already built his own prison at Pisae, doh. Oh well, we can demand it back later for peace, then give it to someone else.
Dow the Romans and land 3 muskets, 2 knights and 14 cavs next to Cumae. There are 4 Roman maces nearby.
Land further east in Mongolia than I wanted; now we have fewer troops (knight army, cav army, 6 vet cavs), but we fork Tatu and Tabriz.
The Mongolian offensive troops seem to be mostly maces. Do they import their horses? They have an average of about 0.5 maces + 0.5 muskets per tile.

Short rush cav in Camp Elite.

690 > 700

The Mongols lose a couple of maces dislodging the Greek landing party, but leave our armies untouched. Breathe a sigh of relief.
They do send landing parties, including cavs, east into Greece, and also over to Heligoland. Time to give that one away then.
Quois ally America against France. Just a bunch of has-been civs bickering amonst themselves... hopefully they don't actually acheive anything.
Alex offers renewal of peace. Well, actually, no deal. Greece looks like the kind of place we want to attack real soon.
The Greeks damage the Mongolian invaders but fail to clear them out.
Agree to leave Egyptian waters. That's fine; the straits between Egypt and Greece have been blocked anyway, plus we don't seem to need the bikini babe she is takling about.
The Roman maces refuse the attack on our mountaineering muskets! Well, what a timid AI we have today.

Camp Elite: cav > cav.
Cantingy: settler > settler.
Maxia: cav > cav.
Sevastopol: cav > cav.
Troy: cav > cav.
Diu: settler > settler.

700ad

Found Cos in northewest Portugal. Amiens founded near the French prison city.

Bomb Badajoz for 1hp, determining that there are at least 2 defenders there. Army kills one, leaving the lone, damaged spear topmost. [15-2]
2 vet cavs attack Cumae and win (1 promotion). Take the town with an elite. 3/3 resisters, and it doesn't keep its harbour, pft. [18-2]
Elite knight goes for a mace and retreats. Finish the job with another elite knight. Kill 4 more maces with elite cavs and get a leader. [22-2]
Lose 6 vet cavs attacking Veii. What is the retreat key again? I should have made an army and used that.
Chain in more cavs to finish the job. 3/7 resisters and it keeps harbour and barracks. Better. [25-8]
Vet cav kills a mace, and joins 2-cav army in Veii. Kill 4 more stray units between Veii and Cumae. [30-8]
Notice there is a Mongolian galley facing north in the ocean halfway between Rome and Greece.


I'll do a review of the situation tonight.
 
Doesn't look to shabby, although losing that 6 Cavs really hurt your kill ratio.

Will look at the save tonite and await your AAR.
 
^ Yeah, I wish I'd never tried starting the last turn. After taking the first Roman town and mopping up the stray medieval legionaries (i.e. maces) I had about 10 cavs left unused, and noticed they could reach Veii, which I had never thought of attacking this turn. So off they went, and one after another, 6 of them all failed to kill the DEF 3 defenders (flat land, city), and not a thought of retreating. At least one didn't even manage to inflict 1hp damage. :gripe: Still, we got there in the end. Apart from that kind of SOUR, Rome doesn't seem capable of offering us any resistance.
 
I tried to find the best possible solution to get to th dom limit to see how many more Prisons we need, and it looks like we are settled.


Dom Tiles 782
Missing 1142

Unclaimed but owned:

Russia 50
Alpha Coast 50
America 30
Celtia 40
France 20
Iro 50
Mongol 140
Germany 140
Rome 90
Japan 80
Greece 100
Inca 60
Maya 80
Persia 70
Aztec 90
Korea or Egypt 80
=================
Sum 1170

I think this is the easiest way to reach Dom Limit by concentrating on the isles that are near our armies and mostly open land.

Russia, America, Celtica, France, Iro, Rome, Greece, Persia, Aztec have a prison city already.

We have 2 more available (we can reconquer the roman one) can squeeze in one more near Istanbul. Greece will also provide us with another 1-tile island, givin us 4 to spare.

We need 5 more so if one goes into the Arctic zone of the Incan Island we are fine.
 
Questions for PB:

What were your plans in Mongolia? Fully load the Armies, beat crap out of Mongols in the open field and take their cities once they are reduced to a sensible number?

How did you handle transport? Are there Ship Chains I should keep operable?

Any other mop up duty apart from Russia and France waiting to happen?
 
So, the detailed version of what happened in this turnset...

- I bought Banking from the Koreans, giving Wang Metallurgy. He can't make hwacha with it because he doesn't have any saltpeter. Even if he imports some of the stuff from someone else, enhanced artillery in the hands of the AI doesn't sound like the most worrying thing we could come across.

- I gave Watha ROP, so that we have the option of marshalling troops in Quois territory before attacking the Inca. I considered sending the eastern army to mop up the Inca before heading to Mongolia, because I'm a bit frightened of the Mongols, but decided against it, especially as it is me that has been pushing for a fast strike to capture Leonardo.

- I started cutting iron and saltpeter sources across the empire, ready for some upgrade action. We currently have 2 iron and 2 saltpeter hooked. The irons are the two we have underneath towns (Bunker Hill and the Gardens of Istanbul), so we will have to trade those away. The best options seem to be Watha, who will give us 2gpt for iron, and Osman will give us 17g, but can't come up with gpt. One of the saltpeter sources is next to Veii, and cutting it will make the road network there a bit less efficient, but that's not a huge problem. The other is at Camp Elite and I delayed cutting it because Camp Elite uses that tile to keep up 20spt. I have diverted a lot of slaves (er.. too many actually, a bit of overkill there) back to the core to replace the mines on unroaded iron and saltpeter sources. Flamboro could also do with having some of those plains mined while the slaves are over there, as it makes too much food in its current state.
SG14_700ad_mines_only.jpg
Under the upgrading regime, somewhere like Camp Elite probably wants to keep building 4-turn cavs, while 10 or 15spt towns make horses for upgrade, unless we actually find our income is outpacing our supply of horses for upgrade.

- A suitable tile at which to do the disconnect/reconnect would seem to be the saltpeter at Cantigny. There is an explorer and 6 slaves waiting patiently there for the fun to begin.
SG14_700ad_hook_unhook.jpg

- I finished the campaign on the Celtic mainland without any trouble. We are still at war with the Celts, just because I was feeling vindictive. Here they are, next door to Russia's future prison...
SG14_700ad_Celtic_prison.jpg
I pillaged their roads, although those two workers are building a road which will soon in be in Celtic territory. Oops, better stop that nonsense - don't give these clowns anything for free! There's a cannon underneath that army, which I used to count defenders, before killing one with the army (of course I should have used a cav, trying for a promotion). The remaining damaged spear is presumably the only unit left in there right now. Perhaps the cannon could also amuse itself trying to bomb Badajoz's grassland for -1fpt damage. :devil:

- We got dowed by Ham again, at Temu's request. Our 20 turn peace deal with Greece also ended, and I decided against renewing it, as I think we will want to attack Alex soon. He already has his hands full with the Mongols anyway. In fact if we get really lucky, Temu might capture his own future prison from the Greeks. That would be neat. Of course any Mongolian towns we keep will be huge flip risks, but that's no problem as long as we stay at war with them.

- I founded a new town at the eastern end of the Quois lake, to speed the journey of our eastern fleet, stationed at Niagara, over to the mountains on the north coast of Mongolia, where I wanted to land. I also used a couple of cannon disbands to rush more carracks in the area, so as to allow a larger simultaneous landing party. Cannon can't unload onto mountains anyway, so they weren't going to feature in the initial assault.
SG14_700ad_Lake_Quois.jpg
The theory was sound, and I was ready to have 7 carracks unloading into Mongolia in 690ad. They even left the tile I wanted, the mountain next to Tabriz, free. And then the Idiot of Macedon dumps a hoplite/archer combo on that spot in 680ad! Well as the old saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is JUST GETTING IN THE DAMN WAY!" So I had to settle for a mountain further east, from which fast units could still strike Tabriz. Unfortunately, only 4 carracks could reach it, so we have a smaller force to start off with. I haven't made any moves with the Mongolian contingent yet, but they are all intact - the AI didn't dare touch those armies. Good call Whomp.
SG14_700ad_Mongolia.jpg
Now we have the choice of going straight inland to Leonardo in Tatu, or striking back north at Tabriz. The advantage of going back for Tabriz would be that it is coastal, so if we take it, we could bring the remaining 3 carrackloads of troops straight into action. Also, it might be less well defended, as (unlike all their other cities) there are no wonders there. The disadvantage of Tabriz is that it surrounded by mountains which are covered in Mongolian muskets. Trying to kill them would get very painful, and while they are there, they would stop us from intercepting Mongolian maces trying to attack Tabriz. From what we can see here, it looks like a lot of the Mongolian troops have been drawn north into the Tabriz area by last turn's Greek incursion (which was 1NW of Tabriz). There's not many actual maces among the visible units, it's mostly muskets.

- I founded a town in Mongolian Germany, in case we wanted an easy route into Germany. Mind you, I'm not sure Germany is actually a very interesting place for us to conquer; there is lots of marsh there, so claiming its territory would need culture rather than settlers.
SG14_700ad_Heligoland.jpg
I thought Otto might take offense and raze Heligoland, but so far he has tolerated the place. However, the Mongols have sent a caravel-load of troops over there to deal with it, so we will need to give it away immediately. In fact it would be ideal as someone's prison city. It needs to be someone not at war with Mongolia or Germany, or other nearby civs, and presumably someone we plan to attack? The Koreans or Inca seem like good options. Japan not so good, as they are at war with Greece.

- I gave Julius one of our core prison cities, before attacking Rome with the western army.
SG14_700ad_core_prisons.jpg
Then I realised that wasn't necessary as he has built an island city. I think if we try to attack that town, it will autoraze, as it is only size 1, and neither we nor they built any culture there. So I suggest we leave it alone until the Roman mainland is conquered; their capital will jump to Pisae island, which will be larger than Roman Prison. Then we can surely get Roman Prison back in a peace settlement, and use it for someone else.

- After finishing the Celtic campaign, the western army loaded up and sailed south. My choice of Rome over Japan was pretty arbitrary. I liked the look of the mountain landing spot next to Cumae better than the flatlands of Japan, and I also had an idea to do one of my combat settles in the Roman territory on the Aztec mainland. But then we are at war with the Aztecs anyway, so I scrapped that idea, and prioritised shipping the military into Rome. The landing was in 690ad, and the Romans didn't try any counterattack; our top defender was an elite musket on a mountain. Cumae fell easily, and then Veii fell with some difficulty.
SG14_700ad_Rome.jpg
We seem in a pretty strong position, although that stack west of Veii will probably get attacked by the Roman foot units to the south. I hope the new army makes it out alive. I should have been more careful when mopping up the strays after taking Veii; as Julius has no fast units, there is no excuse for giving him the opportunity to fight on the offensive. :shake:
Anyway, once we pick off the Roman foot units, the remaining towns should fall easily, as they are unusually close together.

- On this turn, I have moved the units in the Roman campaign, and most of the slaves on Alpha. I have not made any moves in the Mongolian campaign, and this turn's fresh cavalry builds are still unmoved. I did have a quick scan through the towns, so the micro situation shouldn't be too bad.
 
Good stuff PB. It would seem to me that taking Tabriz makes more sense since it provides a landing spot for our carracks and allows units to heal. Question I have is whether we should consider adding another unit to a cav army? I think against the Mongols it makes more sense since we're trying to give them a knockout blow and get Leo's in the process.
 
Certainly my instinct is to try for Tabriz first, although without knowing how many defenders it has, I don't know whether we have enough units present this turn to take it.
I hadn't considered the option of boosting a cav army. There's always the old trick of attacking with cavs first, then joining the least damaged one into an army so it gets to fight again. So in this case: (1) attack once with the cav army, (2) attack 6 times with cavs, (3) join the best surviving cav to the army, (4) attack once more with the cav army, (5) depending how things have gone, decide whether to retreat everyone back to the mountain, or to press on. The cav army would have one more attack available, and the knight army could come in for two more (and also be boosted by adding another surviving cav). It's a maximum of 11 attacks, which isn't necessarily enough.
I also hadn't thought of simply hanging around for a while, under cover of the knight army, killing stuff in the field, as Kulko suggests. Mind you, the targets we have available right now seem to be mostly muskets on mountains, so I don't know that stray dog hunting would be any easier than simply trying to grab a town and defend it.

Ship chains: no, nothing is set up, but it might be worth planning some. I tend to focus on getting large forces landed on the first turn of an invasion, and only start spreading ships out later. There is one ship near the core whose job it is to keep the Celtic and American islands in touch with Alpha. There is another ship in the east, connecting Alpha with France. Then there should be one or two ships connecting France and Quoia.
 
If we take a town and try to hold it, won't we face the problem of flips. to hold it we need troops inside the town (and we don't have muskets there yet) which will be lost in the case of a very liklely flip. OTOH when he doesn't have horses we can just leave the city empty and kill all attacker while they are stuck in the No Man's Land before the gates.

On a completely other point, Do we still own the Libs? If yes, is it ok, when I sell them. I would also start a few coastal twons on temples to prepare for cultural expansion to get all the coastals into our borders. We are producing far more setllers then we ever need, so we should be able to save a few bucks when we later rush them. we migth even finish one or two.

Playing will take a while for me, as I need to steal my time in increments of 2 hours, but I will try to keep you updated.
 
Yes, the Mongolian towns will be a big flip risk. They own almost every wonder, but the only ones we are really interested in are Magellan, down on the south coast, and Leonardo in Tatu. The basic method of enduring flip risk is to stay at war with the civ in question, leave the town ungarrisoned, and keep recapturing it. That would almost apply here; after all, we don't need to defend towns from within provided the Mongols have only foot units. Unfortunately, they do have some access to horses, and some cavs running around (one stands next to Heligoland, and one was in the Greek landing party - the Greeks killed it during their turn). And of course, they have muskets all over the mountains next to Tabriz. I don't suppose the muskets themselves would try many attacks on Tabriz if we defended it, but they would of course allow better units to roll up, and they would pillage the roads there.
 
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