SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[I. Larkin]

So am I. I imagine discussion in other teams: "Ivan revolt!" -- "No, he lost capital!"
"No, they did Palace jump..." Or something like this....

In reality it is time to discuss plans. Intuitively idea to gift Cities in remote tundra is right. To reduce flip chanses "their new capital" have to be far away. But what to do with Arabs, really don't know. They have 3 size 1 Cities, Ottos with iron may take all of them... At the same time we have no force to protect our land atm. The only hope is Cash (short) rush. We may stay without MM some time, and theoretically speaking do not need any other tech. Well, it might be nice to have currency to have more money, but that's it. We have to prepare to War with babylonians: If anybody build SoZ for us thats them only (If loose Pyramyd by cascade...)

 

[DWetzel]

How about later founding cities in the middle of desert/tundra, and gifting to AIs before attacking them?

I think this is a fine idea.

More specifically, my thought was that we take some of these one-country islands and turn them into three or four country islands. There would be virtually no risk that they take each other out, and it would leave us more room to dominate the other islands.

Tundra is also a good spot, of course, as is desert.

Good job on getting us into Monarchy quickly. I assume we're almost certainly locked into this for the rest of the game?

 

[I. Larkin]

More specifically, my thought was that we take some of these one-country islands and turn them into three or four country islands. There would be virtually no risk that they take each other out, and it would leave us more room to dominate the other islands.

We get into Monarchy quickly. I assume we're almost certainly locked into this for the rest of the game?

We even may gift captured City on Kelt/ America islands to our next victim not to bother of building our Cities for them. Question is how to ensure that they will not kill each other?

Well, I thought it is military game and Military goverment is what we need.
Question is how far we should go with research?

Do we need GA or not? Will we try build SoZ? or somebody else will build it for us?

 

[Lanzelot]

Lantzelot warm up...

I think I did a pretty good warm-up this weekend: finally found some time to finish my COTM53 and achieved my first ever 11000 Jason score...

Can't wait for them Arabs...!

I think, we definitely need a Golden Age. But how to get it? I noticed the Lighthouse is EXP and SEA, so would this suffice for starting a GA? Or does one always need two separate Great Wonders to start the GA?? I haven't looked at the most current save, but afair no one has Map Making yet, so if we start a prebuild for it, we might get it. And it might be useful for conquering the far away AIs anyway!

Lanzelot

 

[eldar]

Lighthouse or Colossus would trigger our GA, if we were to build our own wonder afterwards. And that's just the trick - building our own wonder.

If Pyramids->Oracle->MoM/(SoZ?) cascades before MM is known to anyone, we may be able to pick it off. However with ToA now available to a select few that could delay the cascade long enough.

I expect the Colossus to come in during the next turnset.

 

[I. Larkin]

Nobody Build Colosus now, because AI knows, that "somebody very close to that".
I am affraid, that the same will happend with Lighthouse: we have very little chanses. (unless put Lisbon now to "prebuild", but still. ) At least it will be good if nearby AI will build Lighthouse and we capture it. Then we may consider "cheap" wonder GW, HG, or Templar.

I think that it is "cheaper" to research astronomy, rather than build SunTzu, say, but I am not sure.

 

[ignas]

Got it.

I think this is like the ordinary GOTM except that we can't totally kill off AI.
This is just Demigod so all we need to win is Chivalry and horse->knight upgrade.
We will probably reach other landmasses with galleys easily.

Golden Age would be handy but hard to achieve (we need to research to Astronomy or capture GL/Colossus and handbuild other any wonder), I don't think it's worth researching to Astronomy, esepecially in Monarchy (no commerce bonus compared to Republic so quite slow research).
Let's hope nearby AI will build Collosus/Lighthouse, we will capture that town and handbuild cheap Knight's Templar to trigger GA.

We can shut off research now for some time to cash rush stuff. We should wait for AI to research remaining AA techs and buy it for Monarchy (tech pace should be pretty fast as this is demigod and many AI's) to enter Middle Ages. When in MA full steam towards Chivalry while building few horsemen. After Chivalry we shut off research and use horse->knight upgrade via connecting/disconnecting iron and go to kill AI's. By doing this I believe we can get pretty good Domination date.

For now we could build some vet warriors for upgrading to swords to take our continent.

Will get some sleep and play in 12 hours.

Edit: notice Collosus is built in Paris, we need to find that town.

 

[Lanzelot]

I didn't mention Colossus, because nerovats already said

2070BC
Lagos warrior->rax
Contact Chinese they are down alpha, CB and wheel, but have 110 gold
Give CB for 110 gold
turn of science
IBT
French have Colossus

and I thought we need to build at least one with our own traits?! Or how does this mechanism work again? "Whenever we finish any wonder, the program checks the civ-specific traits of the wonders we currently own, and if both traits are there, we get our GA?"
In that case building the Lighthouse would suffice!? Or capturing Colossus or Lighthouse and then building a cheap one. (I always forget, how this works, as I usually use my UU...)

 

[ignas]

In order to get GA both civ traits must be satisfied. Colossus and Great Lighthouse would trigger our GA if we build them as they are both seafaring and expansionistic wonders. If we capture one of these we still need to build ANY wonder in order to trigger our GA.

 

[eldar]

If you haven't had a GA yet, every time you complete a Wonder, the game does a check of all of the Wonders you currently own (including the one you just completed).

If those Wonders traits cover the Civ's traits, you get your GA.

So Capturing Colossus/LH then building any other one will work, and building LH on its own will work.

Seafaring Wonders: Colossus (also: Exp, Com), Lighthouse (also: Exp, Com), Internet (ALL traits, i.e. guarantees a GA if you've not had one), Magellan (also: Exp, Com), Mausoleum (also: Sci), Smiths (also: Com).

Expansionist Wonders: Colossus, Copernicus, Lighthouse, Internet, Magellan, SETI.

So we could build MoM (200 shields, however this is likely to cascade as Philo is out there) then go for Astronomy and Copernicus. However I'd discount this idea right off the bat. Anyway if we got Astronomy we could build our UU and there should be plenty of AI boats to sink by that point. Same goes for Navigation for Magellan, as Astronomy is required for that. Let's forget this line entirely.

That just leaves capturing LH (not built yet - how about we research MM and gift to Civs on our island, that way we get a better shot at the LH being built there?) or Colossus (France is a long way away though).

 

[eldar]

Oh - looking at Progress/Results Culture graph, it would seem Klarius also have switched Govts. in the 1750-1500BC period and had the same Anarchy period as us.

 

[I. Larkin]

Agree with idea to shut down research. 3-4 Cities (Opporto, NC1, NC3 first) need barracks and NC2 Granary. It is more efficient if Lisbon Build Workers (6>7 at 1 turn), [or more sofisticated scheme: Worker, Settler, ( with Cash rush), Catapult (5>6.5), Worker] and NC2 will be SF/WF. Irrigate GLs, mine hills, our Core better have 6+ sizes (in a future...)
Whats going on on the North?
Have no idea how to conduct war. We are "weak" ATM.
It will be nice to capture Mekka, but it is more important to capture some Ottos Cities.
At our continent better to use "general scheme" "MA with peace traty renegotiation", better to start war while AIs at despotism to slow down their research. Note, that Ottomans are "isolated" and Polytheism is "Monopoly".

Oh - looking at Progress/Results Culture graph, it would seem Klarius also have switched Govts. in the 1750-1500BC period and had the same Anarchy period as us.

Ingeed... Good if they also have Monarchy, but, in priciple they could have a Republic.

 

[ignas]

Ok, will start granary in NC2, barracks in others.
Maybe we should transform Lisbon to 4 turn horse/worker factory?
We need many workers for developing land fast and adding to towns. 2 towns with granaries should concentrate on workers/settlers, others reasonably corrupted towns on barracks and units.
Where should I build next town?

I think we want AI's to research fast to bring us to MA ASAP.

 

[I. Larkin]

I think (may be wrong) that after barracks better to build Warriors to upgrade to swords.
Also, it is not good to have barracks in a City that mainly produce non- military units.
But now we have to sort out Arabs Spears somehow.

I think we want AI's to research fast to bring us to MA ASAP.

Not sure. It is Demigod, and they may simply be too advance... Also "home AIs" well ahead, then otheres. It is not good.

But idea is to trade Republic+Monarchy for Feo and Mono from Sci Ais. Where they are BTW? Greeks, Germans...

 

[ignas]

I think (may be wrong) that after barracks better to build Warriors to upgrade to swords.
Also, it is not good to have barracks in a City that mainly produce non- military units.

Agreed.
Where to put next town?

 

[I. Larkin]

Agreed.
Where to put next town?

May be near fresh water behind Horses (Far North). Or 3W from NC1. Or 2.5 W from Opporto.

 

[I. Larkin]

Actually we have to arrange plans for future. At least estimate, how long game will take and if it is resonable go beyong Chivalry. We need approximate Dot Map, Scout the rest of Continent, (North), find France and the rest of Sci Civs.
But general we know enough to work out optimal settelment/military plan.
If we "do not care" all the rest of free space will be settled out soon and AIs will pump units.
If we delay with Iron connection we may not capture any Arabs while MA. What do you think about an idea to (when MA expired of cource) make Peace with MA vs Ottos and babylonians? Also Zulu+Russia vs Babylons? And then to see?

 

[DWetzel]

I'd put our next town WNW of Emerita, on the coastal non-BG, personally. Yes, it's CxC to Emerita, but right now it gets two perfectly good BGs to work, and that's not all bad. Later on it can either be a commerce generator or just pump out boats at a reasonable rate. Plus, obviously, it's safe from enemy invasion right now, which is a nice perk.

As for the GA, I think the best way to get there would be to capture Lighthouse or Colossus, then build Knights Templar. More units is a good thing; we'll be doing a lot of coastal invasions rather than two-tile moves, so that is less of an issue, and attack 5 is always a good thing. Also, obviously we'd be in position to crank out a lot of knights during the GA. Hopefully we could wrap things up without having to go any farther than Chivalry.

Of course, that requires capturing one of those two, which is, needless to say, a question mark. I would rather forego having a GA rather than build the Lighthouse though.

 

[nerovats]

I think MA's are risky, at least when AI get stronger units. Now each has a pike so it's relatively save. But when they get swords it's a problem.
Swords are slow but strong and upgrade cheap to MI. Same attack and cheaper then knight, but will not retreat. Then again, we can see if we take our continent easily, then continue. As there are lot's of AI they all keep small, so we can out research them later if we do need to.
For now swords might be best, as islands are small and we need to ship units any way.
Just continue CxxxC for optimum land grab. Goal is domination.

 

[ignas]

1750 move warriors towards Oporto;
switch NC2-Lagos to a granary

IBT: Arabian spears moving towards Guimaraes;

1725 cover wheat

IBT: establish Monarchy

1700 Russia has Mathematics;
sell The Wheel to Romans for 31 gold;
lux to 10% to keep Lisbon happy;
cash-rush settler in Lisbon for 88 gold as it will grow to size 7 next turn;
set 'emphasize production' in governors screen;

IBT: Lisbon settler->worker;
Arab spears moving towards our capital

1675 rush barracks in Oporto for 40 gold;
rush settler in Guimaraes, switch to barracks as it will get chop on IBT and barracks completed;

IBT: Oporto barracks->archer;
NC1-Guimaraes barracks->archer

1650 Hittites and SUmeria also have Mathematics now;
buy Mtahematics+59 gold for Writing from Sumeria;
disband warrior in Guimaraes, rush to a worker, switch build to archer and we will get archer in 2 turns as the town produces 5 spt;

IBT: Arabian spears moving towards undefended Oporto;
Lisbon worker->worker;

1625 conatct Korea: 5 towns, lag in techs;
rush archer in Oporto for 68 gold (we need to get rid of 2 Arabian spears in our territory);

IBT: Arab spear pillages horses;
Oporto archer->warrior;
NC1-Guimaraes archer->warrior;
Babylon building SoZ

1600 build Coimbra 2N2NW from Lisbon, start curragh;
first war action: VetArcher vs RegSpear-> 1/4 archer, then other archer loses to a spear, warrior suicides on 1/3 reg spear, Arabian spear now 2/4, stop attack

IBT: Lisbon worker->worker;

1575 ...

IBT: ...

1550 rush granary in Lagos;

IBT: Lisbon worker->settler;
NC1 archer->warrior;
NC2 granary->worker;
Emerita curragh->barracks

1525

IBT: Oporto archer->warrior

1500 ...

Oporto and NC1 produce 5 shields so 2turn warrriors.

NC2 has a granary and +5 food so 2 turn workers or 4 turn settlers.

How about founding few towns tightly near rivers or lakes? These won't need aqueducts to grow past 7 so more commerce, pop and unit support.