SGOTM 14 - Ivan
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I. Larkin
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Agree with Othniel.
Any chance of screen shots for the work-bound?
here it is
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eldar
ChiefTank
So how big a threat are the 23 French units that can hit Paris next turn? Any Horses in the fog we don't know about...?
Don't think French have many horses left, if at all. Current units are mostly spears, and some archers. No real treath. If we keep Paris next turn we should be able to rush a rax, to help healing. Also we can ship over an extra knight.
I. Larkin
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Please, don't. Paris will flip back, it is just the matter of time. Keep Elite Knights out if possible. Barracks will generate Veteran defender. I'd rush Harbor to bring Fur and let Paris have more commerce. But that's it. Later, when we resettle french far away we may think about "improuvements". In general don't build Barracks and other improuvments in Cities that have flip risk, like in Istambul and new cities along border.
Culture is real problem for us, I think we needs some Temples at the border Cities. Capture ToA is a good idea, but we have to capture zulu first.
What 6 worker doing near ZULU border?
We have low culture now and may expect about 1 flip in 4-5 turns in average.
I wonder out loud if it's worth considering eating the 10-turn penalty to wipe out France and keep the Colossus and that entire island (has the bonus of getting the intervening coastal tiles as domination tiles). Probably not, but it's worth considering.
I. Larkin
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My short thought is "no", Paris has rank 21, It will be even bigger when we will have Yaroslavl' and Domascus. Corruption kill whatever its. Colosus make what it did and we will keep it for a while, why not? But I think better to make Peace with France as soon as possible and focus on our own continent (island).
I. Larkin
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Just random thoughts…
If you fail to plan you plan to fail. It is so many “first priority” things to do right now that it is very hard to keep track. Lets try to summarize “from the middle”.
Next good wonders we want to have are SoZ, Lighthouse and ToA.
We also want to secure our Cities from Flips. I think it is more important then wonders.
Anyway do not build improvements in Cities that risk flipping. Just Workers, Trebuchets or Pickman (if Barracks) {Faro, Mekka}.
In good Cities, like Combria, Emertia, Rio, Leiria and Evora we need Temples and Marketplaces. Use money to shortrush.
Lagos needs barracks before Knight.
We have 4 Knight factories: Lagos 3 turn, Lisbon 2 turn Gui 3 turn and Opporto 3 turn. Remember to do short rush: Pickman (or any) in 20 spt City and MI in Lisbon. It is 1.5 knights per turn in average. It is much bigger then 1 AC in 5. So do mot worry much about Babylon.
The really urgent thing to do, I think is to capture Elipy, gift it to ottomans and destroy their North. Also to do something with Zulu, that have culture pressure to our Cities. After this problem will be sorted out we may continue to Soz and next to Japan. I think we have to make peace with Japan now, to have hands free and sometime later make RoP and Gift befor invasion Otto's City. Really Lighthouse deserve RoP rape. Home AIs not. Don’t forget cancel RoP with Russia before war.
At this turn I’d sell Monarchy to Zulu for worker and Gold, I think we manage to care about them later without Anarchy.
Again, remind about water and irrigation! Shall I draw picture? Or it is clear how to bring water via Luanda, Horses and next to Mekka??
Do not bring single Knight to France! It is German Galley near Uskudar.
Workers near Rio and Medina are at strange position. Are there reason to road Iron, improuve desert ? And make road to ZULU?
Leiria may flip, don’t keep settler here.
Sortrush and Micromanage!
If you fail to plan you plan to fail. It is so many “first priority” things to do right now that it is very hard to keep track. Lets try to summarize “from the middle”.
Next good wonders we want to have are SoZ, Lighthouse and ToA.
We also want to secure our Cities from Flips. I think it is more important then wonders.
Anyway do not build improvements in Cities that risk flipping. Just Workers, Trebuchets or Pickman (if Barracks) {Faro, Mekka}.
In good Cities, like Combria, Emertia, Rio, Leiria and Evora we need Temples and Marketplaces. Use money to shortrush.
Lagos needs barracks before Knight.
We have 4 Knight factories: Lagos 3 turn, Lisbon 2 turn Gui 3 turn and Opporto 3 turn. Remember to do short rush: Pickman (or any) in 20 spt City and MI in Lisbon. It is 1.5 knights per turn in average. It is much bigger then 1 AC in 5. So do mot worry much about Babylon.
The really urgent thing to do, I think is to capture Elipy, gift it to ottomans and destroy their North. Also to do something with Zulu, that have culture pressure to our Cities. After this problem will be sorted out we may continue to Soz and next to Japan. I think we have to make peace with Japan now, to have hands free and sometime later make RoP and Gift befor invasion Otto's City. Really Lighthouse deserve RoP rape. Home AIs not. Don’t forget cancel RoP with Russia before war.
At this turn I’d sell Monarchy to Zulu for worker and Gold, I think we manage to care about them later without Anarchy.
Again, remind about water and irrigation! Shall I draw picture? Or it is clear how to bring water via Luanda, Horses and next to Mekka??
Do not bring single Knight to France! It is German Galley near Uskudar.
Workers near Rio and Medina are at strange position. Are there reason to road Iron, improuve desert ? And make road to ZULU?
Leiria may flip, don’t keep settler here.
Sortrush and Micromanage!
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Not to doubt you Ivan, but how high are the flip-risks really? If they are low, like 0.5 - 1%, I think we would be better off not spending resources on rushing temples. I'll check on CivAssist tonight for the flip %.
I am all for getting rid of the Zulu, though...
"guy with yellow avatar" should be my new username.Not sure about temples, Ivan. Is it really worth building it? We are pretty far in a game and we lag in culture. Will that few temples have that big influence to our culture? Maybe I'm not very cultured but I think we don't need these. Temple is almost the same as a knight in a shield could, better to have one more knight instead of Temple I guess.
Although few early temples would have made the difference.
It's worth considering, maybe PM Thunderfall and ask for new username?
Although few early temples would have made the difference.
It's worth considering, maybe PM Thunderfall and ask for new username?
Also think Culture to expensive to buid
Paris to harbor
Guarda to pike
Use short rushes for Evora, Lagos, Lisbon and Sagres
Make peace with Japan and get some gold
270BC
Rush harbor in Paris
gain 5 knights
kill some Babs units and some French
Zulu won't let me in to get irrigation so will have to get it from north
IBT
Germans land horse near Istanbul
250BC
now way to defend Istanbul, get peace with Germany and get 79 gold
Luanda rax->pike
Now can enter Zule territoyy so irrigate form north and south
shortrush a bit
French now just have spear, but I have bad luck knight win but anly hav 1 hp left
now spot AC
230BC
Cancel Russian RoP
Take Yaroslav
There's now just 1 French spear left, they're almost willing to give Lyon for peace
Rush some harbors
210BC
Take Novogrod
Rush units
kill new French units, now they will give Lyon.
Checked if anyone onlone but no. Decide to take it. we can get it in few turns to give to Zulu.
Transport Units to Medina
190BC
Prepare attack on Moskou, let units heal
Lyon has 4-10% flip risk, should give it within 2 turns
170BC
Take Moskou, cleanup stack of Russian archers.
Now see I made big mistake, missed the Babylonian spear near Istanbul (thought it was German). What to do. Make peace or let them have it?
Will stop now. As This is turning poin again. Zulu or not? Bab peace or not?
I'd say peace to babs, take zulu. War is slower then I expected, because of many near wins making long healing times. Zulu war will prpably be slow as well, for they'll have hordes of impi. Then go back for babylon.
File on server
Paris to harbor
Guarda to pike
Use short rushes for Evora, Lagos, Lisbon and Sagres
Make peace with Japan and get some gold
270BC
Rush harbor in Paris
gain 5 knights
kill some Babs units and some French
Zulu won't let me in to get irrigation so will have to get it from north
IBT
Germans land horse near Istanbul
250BC
now way to defend Istanbul, get peace with Germany and get 79 gold
Luanda rax->pike
Now can enter Zule territoyy so irrigate form north and south
shortrush a bit
French now just have spear, but I have bad luck knight win but anly hav 1 hp left
now spot AC
230BC
Cancel Russian RoP
Take Yaroslav
There's now just 1 French spear left, they're almost willing to give Lyon for peace
Rush some harbors
210BC
Take Novogrod
Rush units
kill new French units, now they will give Lyon.
Checked if anyone onlone but no. Decide to take it. we can get it in few turns to give to Zulu.
Transport Units to Medina
190BC
Prepare attack on Moskou, let units heal
Lyon has 4-10% flip risk, should give it within 2 turns
170BC
Take Moskou, cleanup stack of Russian archers.
Now see I made big mistake, missed the Babylonian spear near Istanbul (thought it was German). What to do. Make peace or let them have it?
Will stop now. As This is turning poin again. Zulu or not? Bab peace or not?
I'd say peace to babs, take zulu. War is slower then I expected, because of many near wins making long healing times. Zulu war will prpably be slow as well, for they'll have hordes of impi. Then go back for babylon.
File on server
Here is my opinion on the current situation:
Loosing Istanbul may not be critical, but still a nuisance. So I suggest: make peace with Babylon and take their gold. Wait until the Knight-force in the Novgorod - Moscow area has healed and then use it to attack Bapedi. At the same time our army group in Medina will attack Zimbabwe. And the Knights currently build in Lisbon, Oporto, Gui, Faro(short-rush), Leiria, Sagres and Lagos will form a third smaller group that attacks Intombe out of Leiria. This pincer-attack will wipe them out so quickly, they'll never know what hit them...
The good thing is: the Zulus have already "build their own prison" on that isolated island east of Isandhlwana, so we can wipe them off our continent completely.
From Zululand our Knights can be shipped over to India, and new units being built in our core will finally take care of Babylon, once the peace deal expires.
I agree with ignas on the point of temples: they won't help much anyway... We should only start building temples, when the dom limit is in reach. For now: the only really endangered cities are Moscow, Lyons and Paris. Can we (settler-)abandon Lyons and Paris and re-settle them? I'd like to keep the furs.
And I like DWetzel's idea of starting to build MIs (and a couple of trebuchets). The reason is: there are many small islands, where Knights are not needed: Inca, Iroquois, America, most probably the Celts (don't think they are connected to Japan), Rome, Japan, Egypt and probably some more. (Maya, China, Aztecs?!). On most of these islands MI will be as fast as Knights. On the bigger ones (like Maya Island) we can unload the units, take the coastal city, heal them, load them on the boats again and sail to the next coastal city. If this is done skillfully, it will be as fast as Knights!
Slight drawback: we will have more losses. But this can be amended by mixing a couple of trebuchets into the stack.
Lagos, Oporto, Emerita, Leiria would be more efficient producing MI than Knights. (And also Istanbul and Alcácer do Sal can be reserved for that task.)
The only continent, where Knights will be useful, is the German/Mongolian/Greek landmass. Here it would be even good to have a Knight-Army! (Hope we get another leader soon.)
Research: It would be nice to have Carracks, but Theology, Education and Astronomy is 4799 beakers. Quite a lot without Libs... So I think we should not do it. But how about Invention and Gunpowder? At 50% that can be done in approx. 25 turns, and then we can use
Lanzelot
Loosing Istanbul may not be critical, but still a nuisance. So I suggest: make peace with Babylon and take their gold. Wait until the Knight-force in the Novgorod - Moscow area has healed and then use it to attack Bapedi. At the same time our army group in Medina will attack Zimbabwe. And the Knights currently build in Lisbon, Oporto, Gui, Faro(short-rush), Leiria, Sagres and Lagos will form a third smaller group that attacks Intombe out of Leiria. This pincer-attack will wipe them out so quickly, they'll never know what hit them...
The good thing is: the Zulus have already "build their own prison" on that isolated island east of Isandhlwana, so we can wipe them off our continent completely.
From Zululand our Knights can be shipped over to India, and new units being built in our core will finally take care of Babylon, once the peace deal expires.
I agree with ignas on the point of temples: they won't help much anyway... We should only start building temples, when the dom limit is in reach. For now: the only really endangered cities are Moscow, Lyons and Paris. Can we (settler-)abandon Lyons and Paris and re-settle them? I'd like to keep the furs.
And I like DWetzel's idea of starting to build MIs (and a couple of trebuchets). The reason is: there are many small islands, where Knights are not needed: Inca, Iroquois, America, most probably the Celts (don't think they are connected to Japan), Rome, Japan, Egypt and probably some more. (Maya, China, Aztecs?!). On most of these islands MI will be as fast as Knights. On the bigger ones (like Maya Island) we can unload the units, take the coastal city, heal them, load them on the boats again and sail to the next coastal city. If this is done skillfully, it will be as fast as Knights!
Slight drawback: we will have more losses. But this can be amended by mixing a couple of trebuchets into the stack.
Lagos, Oporto, Emerita, Leiria would be more efficient producing MI than Knights. (And also Istanbul and Alcácer do Sal can be reserved for that task.)
The only continent, where Knights will be useful, is the German/Mongolian/Greek landmass. Here it would be even good to have a Knight-Army! (Hope we get another leader soon.)
Research: It would be nice to have Carracks, but Theology, Education and Astronomy is 4799 beakers. Quite a lot without Libs... So I think we should not do it. But how about Invention and Gunpowder? At 50% that can be done in approx. 25 turns, and then we can use
- Muskets to absorb the initial attack
- Leonardo's for an efficient disconnect/connect strategy
Lanzelot
I. Larkin
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Not nesssary to make peace with with Babylons. we need Lighthouse ASAP and Babylon's land is a good place to assemble. Sell barracks and Ship 4 Knights from Medina to Castelo / Branco. 4 Knights will take Istambul back.
We also have to get rid of Novgorod somehow. This City is in our Forbiden Zone.
May be gift it to ottos? Stop Workers and sell harbor...
Zulu actually setteled on isolated Island. No need to gift them any.
It is "new suspicious border" behind Iroques. Most probably Japanize. If it is so then no needs to gift them City also.
We really need to get rid of ottomans at north. Actually I thought that we strike them first and give to russians but now dont' know what we will do with this dreadful land.
Yaroslavl' may build Galleys. No need to build Barracks there. Also, it may flip; may be some slaves first?
We need more units in , to quiet resistance faster.
We also have to get rid of Novgorod somehow. This City is in our Forbiden Zone.
May be gift it to ottos? Stop Workers and sell harbor...
Zulu actually setteled on isolated Island. No need to gift them any.
It is "new suspicious border" behind Iroques. Most probably Japanize. If it is so then no needs to gift them City also.
We really need to get rid of ottomans at north. Actually I thought that we strike them first and give to russians but now dont' know what we will do with this dreadful land.
Yaroslavl' may build Galleys. No need to build Barracks there. Also, it may flip; may be some slaves first?
We need more units in , to quiet resistance faster.
Yeah, there are a few places (e.g. Coimbra/Emerita area off the top of my head) where a temple or two would actually bring in some domination tiles. I think it's not worth it for just getting culture for the sake of culture, but we do need to start looking to see where those tiles can be picked up.
I like the idea of Leo's in principle, but like Ivan I don't think the time to build it would be worth the loss of units. I think we can move very quickly.
I like the idea of Leo's in principle, but like Ivan I don't think the time to build it would be worth the loss of units. I think we can move very quickly.
I. Larkin
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Actually, Ignas up..
I ran calculation and probably we may leave Novgorod for a while.
basic idea of Forbiden zone is to reduce cooruption in FP core. For our case it is approximately 11% per City. We only have 5 small Cities in FP area, so total loss of abonding Novgorod will be Edit: biggersmaller then these "benefits".
Picture below is the corruption calculation and Corthouse benefits. Right panel is example "without Novgorod and Istambul"
Also we urgently needs some Galleys to transfer troops to Japan. I think to finish Babs is 9-12 turns, so No Peace. As I wrote, we may take Istambul back, just sell barracks and spend Cash in pre-turn. Another interesting options is "pretend that we did it on purpose". Istambul will be prison for Babylons, just send Pickman to pillage around, catpture SoZ and demand the rest of the Cities. It is also will resolve Iron connect/disconnect problem and "flip risk of Istambul".
In general, it is hard to predict what City we will keep, what gift and what abondend. Let Ignas clean the continent first and then we discuss.
I ran calculation and probably we may leave Novgorod for a while.
basic idea of Forbiden zone is to reduce cooruption in FP core. For our case it is approximately 11% per City. We only have 5 small Cities in FP area, so total loss of abonding Novgorod will be Edit: biggersmaller then these "benefits".
Picture below is the corruption calculation and Corthouse benefits. Right panel is example "without Novgorod and Istambul"
Also we urgently needs some Galleys to transfer troops to Japan. I think to finish Babs is 9-12 turns, so No Peace. As I wrote, we may take Istambul back, just sell barracks and spend Cash in pre-turn. Another interesting options is "pretend that we did it on purpose". Istambul will be prison for Babylons, just send Pickman to pillage around, catpture SoZ and demand the rest of the Cities. It is also will resolve Iron connect/disconnect problem and "flip risk of Istambul".
In general, it is hard to predict what City we will keep, what gift and what abondend. Let Ignas clean the continent first and then we discuss.
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eldar
ChiefTank
I agree, let them take Istanbul. We are in Monarchy so it won't trigger any WW issues - how often has a situation like that occurred when you're in Republic and you are "forced" to make peace to avoid a big hike in WW?
