SGOTM 14 - Ivan

ignas · Nov 14, 2008

There's no Rep hit but we effectively lose all ROP Rep for the rest of the game, from everyone France comes in contact with. Is that really something we want to risk?

Not yet I'd say.

We're aiming for 12 Knights in the initial force, right?

1-2 cheap pikes for absorbing initial archer attack, the rest (10-11) knights.
There should some knights near Mecca as reinforcements in case RNG is terrible and we didn't succeed.
Probably investigating Paris better 2-3 turns before landing to get a better picture what we will be facing, not immeadetelly.

nerovats · Nov 14, 2008

When we land we will face counter attack as well, even enough archers can take out some knights. Should keep RoP rep.

I. Larkin · Nov 14, 2008

Apologize to America about that scout.
Then they declare war anyway (?!), capturing the scout. Whee. Goofy. More war happiness though.

I am affraid that the same may happend if we land scout in France. After that we will not be able to make embassy in Paris. However main worry is not diu to spears and Pickmans in Paris, but Horses and Archers, that will try to drive us back to the sea.

Othniel · Nov 14, 2008

Just petty technicalities on the RoP rep thing, but Lord Emsworth showed a while back that having units in enemy territory before the DoW does not result in the automatic breaking of one's RoP rep. I'll see if I can dig up a link for anyone interested. Note on his conclusions: it might still be possible to get a broken RoP rep if you have a TON of units enter enemy territory before the DoW, that is untested AFAIK.

EDIT: here's the link to Lord Emsworth's post. I thought he made a separate thread too but I can't find it at the moment.

In DWetzel's log, he pointed out an orange border north of France. It would be nice to have a ship explore up there ASAP, if we have any ships available for that purpose. If the Ottos do have a city on the French island, we might do something similiar to what I suggested before: sign an MA with Ottos (or whoever that is) against France a turn or two before we land to draw the French troops north away from Paris.

DWetzel · Nov 14, 2008

i am pretty sure orange is Inca actually. Our curragh there should upgrade in harbor and then go have a quick peek.

I don't think the scout to France is needed. It is almost all coastal. We can figure out things by boat.

If we don't have an embassy with France yet we can do that at the right moment for the peek at Paris.
.

I. Larkin · Nov 14, 2008

It is hard to make "summary" as many minor things need to be decided but I will try now.

Build up:1) Lisbon should get +7f and go to Galley ->settler ->Knight->Worker->Knight (GA) scheme.
2) Lagos -> Grow and Build Marketplace.
3) Gui set to max spt to make KT in 12
4) Opporto can make Pickman instead
5) Barracks in Mekka with forest cut! (looks that flip chances zero?)
6) Plant 2 settlers in place after Edrine abandons.
War preparations:
1) Land at France near Paris at 350 BC. Nerovats will take Paris at 330 BC and GA starts 310 BC.
2) We need 3 more Galleys 116 g each and upgrade Curragh (45 g).
3) We also need 5 more Knights 120 g each. It is just 8 turns and we will have some spare money after that.
4) We send 2 Pickman to cover Knights.
5) We will not Break RoP. We declare at the turn of Landing. (We may enter in sea, and then declare AFAIK)
6) We will gift Monarchy to France.
7) We will not finish KT until capture (for sure) Paris.
8) We may build road to Moscow and further south.
However, we did not decide other local wars:

1) Do we want Celts to ally vs. America?
2) Attack Ottomans (Bursa, gift to somebody?, France? )
3) – Make peace vs. Babylon, or not?
4) make embassy in Paris?

Undecided settlements:
1) Question is where Edrine and Lisbon settlers will go? It is three spots possible: I put proposed settlements at updated map post #330, nobody said suggestions. I prefer first City between Mekka –Medina, near Rocks. It will help fastest French war.
2) I Can’t see how we can regroup workers efficiently (I want more irrigate). Basic idea that worker flow should go East to improve land near FP and Joined Uskudar.
3) Do we want more workers to merge in?

In fact it is "minor" and Eldar may decid it in his turns provided main line to capture Paris will go OK.

I. Larkin · Nov 17, 2008

No progress and no replys...
Eldar, are you playing?

eldar · Nov 17, 2008

No, I'm not playing yet - I was waiting for a bit more input before the w/e and not much came. For some reason I missed Post #346. I should get my turns done today.

DWetzel · Nov 17, 2008

My only comments regarding the summary in #346--if I ignore it, assume all is well.

Oporto does not need to switch to a pike, it can continue the knight, assuming we are content with 2 pikes going to France. The two in production will arrive in time. For that matter, we have a couple of trebuchets that may as well make the trip, though I'm not sure we'll have the galley capacity.

Other wars: I would remain at war with Babylon for now. I think that should be our second priority after France, capturing the SoZ. (Okay, the Ottoman thing, but that hardly classifies as a real war.) With the knights we have in production, and a couple late horse upgrades, we should be able to do that within the 20 turns of peace we would have.

Celts vs. America: Perhaps tied to a peace treaty, otherwise I don't see the point. It just locks us into something we may not want to be in. I can go either way here though.

Japan: I'd make peace as soon as our MA is over. It's not getting us anything.

I'm not sure I see the point of either of the new city sites, to be honest. They gain no territory and don't seem to help us in other ways. If we do settle one I'd rather do the one near to Damascus, I guess. Rather move one or both of them to Edrine area to use as jail sites for AI civs.

Paris embassy can happen right before we are ready to declare, so we can see exactly wht we're dealing with.

Workers: I think yes we do want more workers--the area south of Lagos/Lisbon can grow but it will do so slowly, and adding workers in there seems like the smartest way to do that. In fact, that would be my suggestion for Lagos, perhaps even ahead of the market, to just continue 2-turn workers for a while.

I. Larkin · Nov 17, 2008

May be an idea just to finish turnset before landing and "declare"? But have everething on Galleys? It is resonable to check all minor things before "irreversable step".
@D_wetzel: 100% harmless Cities is behind yellow ring. So my "IBT Mekka an Medina" is good. Also it will help to war vs France. Also all French cities good for us. "Jail" must be really far away.

May be my "arithmetics" wrong, but looks that Picks from Evora will not come in time.

eldar · Nov 17, 2008

It's quiet here, so I am starting to play.

I will look for alliance vs. America with Celts, tied to peace, but only once I've built the invasion force and we have spare income.

I will not start any new local wars, I do not wish to risk losing troops essential to either defense vs. Babylon, or required for France. Ottomans/Arabia are no threat any longer and we can deal with them as & when. Zulu have lots of soldiers.

As I believe we will be in a position to strike Babylon within 20 turns, I will not sign peace with them. I will merely look to defend, unless a "critical" situation comes up (i.e. I somehow fail to kill units they've landed/brought up and I have to sign peace to preserve cities). I don't see this occurring though. They are not making it through Russia right now.

I. Larkin · Nov 17, 2008

Don't forget about road to moscow. May help. It is a lot of workers there.

eldar · Nov 17, 2008

I almost forgot the road to Moscow... remembered at the last minute, so to speak, with not very good consequences (see below).

Headline News: Babylon/Russia Peace!

Turns played. 350BC save uploaded, there are still units to move, and I have not yet declared on France, though we are in position to do so and have a definite landing site next to Paris.

>> The Save <<

Spoiler Turn Log :

French invasion situation:
- 7 Galleys currently containing 12 Knights, 2 Pikes.
- Galley E of Castelo Branco (2 Knights) has 4/7 moves left and can land units next to Paris on the tile indicated below.
- Galley NE of Medina has 1/7 moves left and can land units too.
- 5 Galleys in Castelo Branco can all get to the landing zone as well.
- France have NOT been gifted Monarchy! Next player MUST do this first!!

Questions:
- Do we want to load 2 Trebs in place of 2 Knights before landing next to Paris? I would say no. There are 9 units in Paris, and there may be more once we start to attack. I don't know where the French Pikes are.
- Do we want to make peace with Babylon? I'd say no, we are now in good position to launch an attack through Russia, especially if things go well in France. My only concern is that we won't be getting any more help from Russia.

Other:
- Keep an eye on that Babs Galley sailing near Lisbon, that's what those Knights are doing up there.
- What to do with the Settler from Edrine? I've had it wandering round aimlessly.

I. Larkin · Nov 17, 2008

can't resist and have a look now
i think we sholud try our plan, chanses looks normal. If we manage to capture we will bring reinforsmen and hold.
If not second try...Other things are minor: Lisbon 7 fpt, Sortrush knight via MI, Emertia and Coumbria needs Harbors, Emertia also Marketplace. We may use Osman settler as combat city in America, if no better idea. But two placese: near Damascus and at tundra coast still remain.

nerovats · Nov 18, 2008

Shouldn't we wait 1 turn after gifting monarchy, when at war they might not revolt. Will look at save when I get home. Looks like we already got some extra knights, we can put them to use.
9 defenders is a lot, but we should get Paris, if French counter attack is small.

eldar · Nov 18, 2008

I made a test scenario, gifted Monarchy to another Civ (in Despotism), then declared war. Sometimes I moved units in, sometimes I didn't. Every time they went into Anarchy. I think we will be safe to gift & declare on the same turn.

I. Larkin · Nov 18, 2008

You can check at F3 if they are in Anarchy or not.
I try a bit with combat calculator and results does not look promising. With the stack we have it is 50/50% cahnses that we capture City as it is. After Picks take first strikes next will go to Knights.... probabilities for Knight vs vet spear is 68, 50 and 27% for 4,3,2 HPs.

Aditionally if we land at eldar's point horses may hide in Paris if rereat from Picks. Archers from all country also will concentrate in Paris. At the same time there is no reinforsment behind for second strike... May be an idea to land Trbukhets and Archers together with 2 Picks and 3 Knights and land next to "fortified place?

nerovats · Nov 18, 2008

Could do with some extra knights, But shouldn't lose many even if we fall short. So can try again next turn.

eldar · Nov 18, 2008

There is 1 more Galley that will be available in 330BC to drop units. We should be able to MM Gui delay by at least 1 turn (even if we have to starve it).

Making an initial landing of Pikes/Archers/Trebs/couple of Knights makes sense, as many as we think we need to absorb the initial rush. Then land as many Knights as we can. If Knights landed in the first wave are still healthy enough, use them to pick off any Horses/Archers that are in the open.

nerovats · Nov 18, 2008

Agree with Eldar, takes 1 extra turn but will be more safe. If archer can't reach us and horses don't get lucky we could do it next turn though. Paris is size 5, and just spears.

Coimbra could use duct to get over 6.

SGOTM 14 - Ivan

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