SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[shulec]

Methinks the mix of forest types in the BFC had its purpose to confuse us in our localization in the world. By now, it looks like we are in the south. But that jungle tile seems so lonely, I mean there are temperate forests all around.

I agree that the forests in the capitol are misleading. I believe that the deer is out of place and has been added. The gem and two jungle tiles may have been added or could definitely be part of the original map. I disagree that we are in the south, but believe we are at the equator. We could even be in the northern hemisphere just as easily as the southern if the jungle and gems were added (I doubt this).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I will also go along with "Toto moving W -> W" making a 7 of 8 consensus with one member not yet giving his opinion.

I shall make the moves and report the results in a few minutes, which will finish my turn set.

bcool defined our rotation ("batting") order here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10764583&postcount=72

mabraham is up next (please wait for the turn 10 = 3600 BC save to be uploaded ).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Result of Toto moving W -> W:

The attached map image shows the new state of our game. Only the culture of our own city is revealed in the cultural view so a screen shot of it has not been attached.

We see ocean to the west and more land and a Lion 1 NW. We probably want to use our 2 XP for a Combat 1 promotion, since the Lion will likely attack Toto in its turn 10 to follow shortly.

Wheat and Sugar resources were revealed.

Information from the upload to the SGTOM Server:

Spoiler :

Reference number: 11120
Game: C-IV SGOTM 14
Your team: Kakumeika
Your name: Sun Tzu Wu
Date submitted: 2011-08-16
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 3600BC
Player race: America
Firaxis score: 37
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:04:59
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:37:08
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Kakumeika_SG014-0010-BC-3600-End-of-Turn+upload-to-Server.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Kakumeika_SG014_BC3600_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Right click the Renamed File link above to copy it.
You can then paste it into your team post as the download link for the next player.


Here is your Session Turn Log from 3680 BC to 3600 BC:


You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

mabraham is up next.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

The barbarian lion:

Oh no!!! Get away lion! Do we upgrade to combat I or not? Without promotion, the lion has 21.3 % odd to kill our dog, but with combat I, it is reduced to 11.1 %. Not a big difference for sure. I vote to refuse the promotion, hoping nothing wrong occurs.

Isolation:

Look at the variety of resources...I fear Walter_Wolf was right. Now, it reeks isolation as we have plenty of resources to raise our happy and health caps to decent levels.

Position of second city (gem city):

The PH south to the wheat looks like a good position for our second city. Sure, we have to explore the possible peninsula to make sure we don't kill sea foods because of city mispositioning. If ever we end up isolated, that position is nice for a legendary city if ever we choose the cultural path.
The downside of that position is we can't really work the gems early, waiting turn 50 third cultural ring spreading of the capital.

New direction for Toto:

Going NW then north seems reasonable. After healing of course.

 

[shulec]

Combat I Toto on hills eats lions for breakfast! I would also be open to not upgrading the unit, saving the upgrade for healing and a Woodsman I.

...but I think Combat I is the most sensible.

 

[Manco Capac]

I agree that the forests in the capitol are misleading. I believe that the deer is out of place and has been added. The gem and two jungle tiles may have been added or could definitely be part of the original map. I disagree that we are in the south, but believe we are at the equator. We could even be in the northern hemisphere just as easily as the southern if the jungle and gems were added (I doubt this).

Yeah, I was a bit too hot-headed when claiming that; the crabs misled me.

 

[mabraham]

Thoughts for my turn set and beyond

Leave Toto unpromoted, planning to move SW and heal up. Apply Woodsman I if 70% health or lower. Then head SW.

If we are fairly isolated, then we should be expecting Toto to be able to do a quick jaunt around the peninsula to the SW, and head back north via the hill west of the lake.

Note that we have four of the five calendar resources, which sounds like a good target for our mid-game happiness source. Our food resources are nice but not overwhelming, and when combined with this source of happiness, it does not look like a good idea to run slavery, and certainly not before we have granaries to double the effectiveness.

So far, settling our second city around T42 on the plains hill where our warrior is now looks pretty good. We can have a worker chop some forests heading south around the capital's lake to be in position to farm the wheat, and with the T50 capital border pop we'll be in position to mine gems and camp deer according to taste. This works pretty smoothly with delayed Hunting.

If we had to choose a site for the third city now, I'd suggest SW of cow. This gets both seafood and will be able to work up some cottages for the capital (and itself). Settling 2S of corn to be on the river seems misguided to me. We have +7 just lying around and +2 more with a granary, so fresh water doesn't gain much. We get four river cottages to the east either way. The marble and Ghill is more than offset by the clam and faster growth.

However, we may find more desirable sites to the north. I think we should aim at 2-3 warriors before the second worker and first settler, so that we can be sure of being able to explore enough to the north while securing the western city site. Since the details become relevant in 5 turns time, I will work on some now.

 

[frogdude]

The barbarian lion:

Oh no!!! Get away lion! Do we upgrade to combat I or not? Without promotion, the lion has 21.3 % odd to kill our dog, but with combat I, it is reduced to 11.1 %. Not a big difference for sure. I vote to refuse the promotion, hoping nothing wrong occurs.

I'm in favour of taking the hit, and using Woodsman I to heal. We'll likely get 2XP out of the encounter, allowing us to heal again with Woodsman II.
Now Toto will turn into an exploring machine. After 1-2 turns to fully heal, he'll be able to move 2 squares on many turns.

It also occurs to me that we were always expecting to encounter a 'lion'. More specifically a 'cowardly lion'. What are the odds the mapmaker placed a specific script lion around....
Either way, keep your eyes peeled for a scarecrow and a tinman.

Isolation:

Look at the variety of resources...I fear Walter_Wolf was right. Now, it reeks isolation as we have plenty of resources to raise our happy and health caps to decent levels.

Isolation still doesn't feel right according to the story. However, I am still expecting a fairly directed travel path. The area to the southwest could be a land bridge to another area.

Position of second city (gem city):

The PH south to the wheat looks like a good position for our second city. Sure, we have to explore the possible peninsula to make sure we don't kill sea foods because of city mispositioning. If ever we end up isolated, that position is nice for a legendary city if ever we choose the cultural path.
The downside of that position is we can't really work the gems early, waiting turn 50 third cultural ring spreading of the capital.

Waiting till turn 50 to work the gems (and the deer) isn't a big deal. We're building the settler around turn 40, by the time we head over there, settle, grow to size 2+ from working the wheat, the timing will be about right.

 

[shulec]

Thoughts for my turn set and beyond

Leave Toto unpromoted, planning to move SW and heal up. Apply Woodsman I if 70% health or lower. Then head SW.

If we are fairly isolated, then we should be expecting Toto to be able to do a quick jaunt around the peninsula to the SW, and head back north via the hill west of the lake.

SW? Why?

1. If there were AI to the north, we should have met them by now. (Assuming Kaitzilla is wrong about scouts being removed)
2. Our next warrior/archer/scout(s) can head north and fog bust.
3. If this is really a peninsula, we may still meet AI by seeing their coastal cultural borders.
4. We have enough city sites now that we don't need to see the northern city sites yet. (If we meet an AI from the north, this would change dramatically.)
5. The greatest majority of the world is west.
6. Beaker boost for meeting AI.

I like a southwest trek as far as it will go. I can live with a few turns west to start with until I am convinced otherwise.

 

[shulec]

The barbarian lion:

Oh no!!! Get away lion! Do we upgrade to combat I or not? Without promotion, the lion has 21.3 % odd to kill our dog, but with combat I, it is reduced to 11.1 %. Not a big difference for sure. I vote to refuse the promotion, hoping nothing wrong occurs.

There are apparently "Free Wins" against barbs. These also increase our likelihood of winning this battle.

 

[Manco Capac]

There are apparently "Free Wins" against barbs. These also increase our likelihood of winning this battle.

Unless SGOTM's have tweaked the rules, emperor level doesn't allow "free wins", it is on a lower level, which one we don't really care.

The test game from where I took the odds, my combat I warrior lost to the lion at 11.1 % and it was the first fight.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'm in favour of taking the hit, and using Woodsman I to heal. We'll likely get 2XP out of the encounter, allowing us to heal again with Woodsman II.

That's the spirit! I like it.. But since we are charismatic, I don't feel the need to take around 68.3 % odd attacking the lion (we then get three XP's). We only need 2 XP's and thus two defense wins. I would usually do that, but the loss means we are set back in exploration compared to other teams.

In a HoF game, I would definitely attack, but now, the frustration is mild.

I don't know what occured in head; we CANNOT choose attacking as Toto finished its move. Why people didn't notice I said stupidities.

 

[Manco Capac]

I made myself another test game that now has a map edge!

I've been trying to work out what that tile is 3S of the corn. I'm wondering whether it's an extension to that new lake.

Oh, and we should think of another name than Washington

Oh, I missed that...I was quite dysfonctional these days ago...so my perusal was a bit without decent scrutiny. Why such useless comment, because I made an update myself without thinking "Weird, I am sure I've seen someone doing it before..."

Anyways, my update is simply a transformation of the first one I made, as I don't find necessary for now to consider map edge and latitude until we get a hold of SH or calendar.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I like Mabraham's plan. I am comfortable with Toto gambling a little in pursuit of the woodsman promotion line.

If we are still voting, I'd vote for the Toto exploration plan as outlined.
5 turns of play if no horses in BFC, teching mining after AH.
3 turns if it does show up, so we can briefly debate Horse Archer beeline.

 

[bcool]

TotoI'm okay with risking Toto in a defensive battle on a hill without promotion and using the promotion for woodsman I to heal as mabraham suggested. There is at least some chance the lion doesn't attack.

speeding up play with more detailed PPP?
I'm in favor of speeding up finishing the next turnset (and other in the future if we don't see the need for extensive testing). Instead of stopping every other turn we can describe stopping points or alternative plans if we encounter various events similar to Kaitzilla's post above. These stopping points and alternative paths would be in addition to posting a comprehensive PPP for your 10 turns covering all aspects of play.

stop if met an AI and we have horses in BFC
If we have horses I can't imagine the horse archer beeline is something that needs to be debated until we met an AI. If horses and we meet an AI then we can stop and discuss.

scouting and yellow brick road speculationIf Toto has the ability to keep going W-SW I'm okay with that. I'm not sure I would want him to double back north if he has a western direction to explore.

It occurs to me that there might be a yellow brick road of sorts in this game. Something like a narrow strip of land that cuts across the ocean to other continents. Which is one reason I would like to see him keep going west until that path ends. (I'm aware he said there was nothing like a yellow brick road, but never trust a map maker)

2nd city sites
Since the 2nd city isn't in mabraham's turn set, I'm happy to wait to debate where it should go.

speculation outside of mabraham's turnset
sacrifice to get the great lighthouse?
I'm beginning to think we need to seriously consider sacrificing to get the Great Lighthouse. A nice early wonder that leaves our options open.

switching the slaveryI think 2 pop whipping a worker or settler to time the max overflow into a granary is a strong early play. Something to consider at least.

 

[frogdude]

That's the spirit! I like it.. But since we are charismatic, I don't feel the need to take around 68.3 % odd attacking the lion (we then get three XP's). We only need 2 XP's and thus two defense wins. I would usually do that, but the loss means we are set back in exploration compared to other teams.

In a HoF game, I would definitely attack, but now, the frustration is mild.

The amount of XP earnt is always a mystery to me. Can't you sometimes get 2XP for a defensive win and thus we only need one win to get to 4XP for the woodsman II?
If anyone is aware of a good guide that explains this, can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Manco Capac]

The amount of XP earnt is always a mystery to me. Can't you sometimes get 2XP for a defensive win and thus we only need one win to get to 4XP for the woodsman II?
If anyone is aware of a good guide that explains this, can you point me in the right direction?

XP's coming from defense is always lower than attack because attacking while being risky is brought by decision and it is more rewarded than a passive defensive move (even though decided).
Getting 2 XP's needs a defensive win at ridiculous low chance of survival, like bear attacking you (a warrior) on flat lands. I think I've seen three XP's, but it was a miracle survival...

Anyways, the defensive odds are too high for getting 2 XP's at once.

 

[shulec]

Experience Points

The winner of combat gains experience points. Like most of combat, experience points are determined by the ratio of strengths. The value is floor(iXPValue*opponent_strength/your_strength), where iXPValue comes from the XML file. For all standard units, iXPValue is 4 for an attacking unit and 2 for a defending unit. The minimum number of experience points for a successful fight is 1, however. The strengths are the displayed modified strengths (from bonuses and hps).

Exceptions: A unit which attacks and retreats gains a single experience point in all cases. The defending unit receives no experience points in this case.

Example: A sword (str:6) attacks a spearman (str:4) on flatlands. If the sword won, he would receive 2 (floor(4*4/6)) xps. The spear would gain 3 (floor(2*6/4)) xps if it won.

Example: A modern armor (str:40) attacks a spear (str:4). If the modern armor wins (odds: 99.999999+%), it gains 1 xp, not 0 (floor(4*4/40)). If the spear wins (odds: 6e^-13), it would gain 20 xp (floor(2*40/4)).

Arathorn

Taken from this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615

 

[mabraham]

SW? Why?

1. If there were AI to the north, we should have met them by now. (Assuming Kaitzilla is wrong about scouts being removed)
2. Our next warrior/archer/scout(s) can head north and fog bust.
3. If this is really a peninsula, we may still meet AI by seeing their coastal cultural borders.
4. We have enough city sites now that we don't need to see the northern city sites yet. (If we meet an AI from the north, this would change dramatically.)
5. The greatest majority of the world is west.
6. Beaker boost for meeting AI.

I like a southwest trek as far as it will go. I can live with a few turns west to start with until I am convinced otherwise.

I'm not sure what our misunderstanding is. I want to go SW to see if this is a peninsula or not, which might achieve your point 5 or 6. If it is a peninsula, then we'll swing north up the western coast, if not, we'll keep heading west. I expect to be building two more warriors around T24-T28 who will head north or west as suitable to get more scouting done.

TotoI'm okay with risking Toto in a defensive battle on a hill without promotion and using the promotion for woodsman I to heal as mabraham suggested. There is at least some chance the lion doesn't attack.

speeding up play with more detailed PPP?
I'm in favor of speeding up finishing the next turnset (and other in the future if we don't see the need for extensive testing). Instead of stopping every other turn we can describe stopping points or alternative plans if we encounter various events similar to Kaitzilla's post above. These stopping points and alternative paths would be in addition to posting a comprehensive PPP for your 10 turns covering all aspects of play.

stop if met an AI and we have horses in BFC
If we have horses I can't imagine the horse archer beeline is something that needs to be debated until we met an AI. If horses and we meet an AI then we can stop and discuss.

scouting and yellow brick road speculationIf Toto has the ability to keep going W-SW I'm okay with that. I'm not sure I would want him to double back north if he has a western direction to explore.

It occurs to me that there might be a yellow brick road of sorts in this game. Something like a narrow strip of land that cuts across the ocean to other continents. Which is one reason I would like to see him keep going west until that path ends. (I'm aware he said there was nothing like a yellow brick road, but never trust a map maker)

2nd city sites
Since the 2nd city isn't in mabraham's turn set, I'm happy to wait to debate where it should go.

speculation outside of mabraham's turnset
sacrifice to get the great lighthouse?
I'm beginning to think we need to seriously consider sacrificing to get the Great Lighthouse. A nice early wonder that leaves our options open.

switching the slaveryI think 2 pop whipping a worker or settler to time the max overflow into a granary is a strong early play. Something to consider at least.

Agree with all of this.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Nice find Shulec

According to that guide, defending against that lion on a hill will result in 2str vs. 2.7str.
The XP gained will be floor((2*2)/2.7)=floor(1.8)=1XP.
If we promote Toto to combat I, the XP gained will be floor((2*2)/2.9)=floor(1.38)=1XP

If we could attack the lion on a flat plain with no promotion, we'd get floor((4*1.81)/2))=floor(3.62)=3XP.
If we could attack the lion on a flat plain with combat I, we'd get floor((4*1.81)/2.2)=floor(3.29)=3XP.