SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Manco Capac]

We need to evaluate what the long term impact on development of our city is if we forgo these 11 food (and 3 commerce) to turn into 11 hammers. How much is our settler slowed down by?

I thought frogdude's concerns were interesting to consider, so I made a test game of it.
I decided to prolong it to SH in turn 56, considering we hooked up stone with third city.
Honestly, I can't see attempting SH when stone is saying "hullo!, I'm here...". Most of the SH contribution comes from chops at the last minute if ever the SH itself is still permitted. Turn 56= 1760 BC.

Of course, more cases can be imagined, but I chose one specifically.
In settler production terms, the first settler is delayed by two turns and the second one saved a turn.

If we work unimproved sheeps for 4 turns, then 12 is stocked, then the improved sheeps will rocket the city to pop 2 in two turns without food overflow.

Then, pop #2 is working spices until turn 24 where our first warrior is trained. No overflow.

We start another warrior to get pop 3. I could have worked the corn tile, but cumulating too fast unimproved tiles is no good compared to worker speed of improving.

At turn 25, cows are improved and then switch the spices to cows.
At turn 27, pop 3 for umimproved corn.
At turn 28, second warrior built without overflow.
At turn 29, unimproved corn to FPH.
At turn 31, pop 4 and third warrior trained. Corn improvement is synchronized with pop 4. The worker will then improve PH north to corn (if forest didn't grow onto the hill) waiting for BW.
At turn 33, BW.
At turn 36, 2nd worker. Of course, we changed the FPH working to spices for the 1 Now, settler.
At turn 40, Wheel, 93 stocked for settler plus 15 "organic" production and 20 from chop.
At turn 44, Second city founded.
At turn 45, 2nd settler. Another worker.
At turn 47, settler founded a city on PH? next to stone. We will see after exploration.
At turn 49, Warrior at New York.
At turn 50, Masonry.
At turn 53, Change riverside PH to lake tiles for one turn to tune Mysticism with quarry/road finish.
At turn 54, Back to riverside PH.
At turn 55, Mysticism/ SH begun for 8 turns.
At turn 56, After 2 chops and if we change corn tiles for 2 turns to spices, then we reach exactly 120 for SH.

Turn 56 / 1760 BC - Possible but organic production and chops are not wasted if done appropriately. Of course, if copper is found under city, then the test game is screwed. But holding the knowledge of Archery may lead us to think we are kinda defenseless.

Here are my autosaves if one wants to see errors turn by turn. The first turns are missing because my save limit is 50 I guess.

 

[Manco Capac]

Phew, I am going to sleep now...argghhh.

Of course, I have to spam...

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I like option B. A subsequent worker finishes T34 without requiring a chop, which is acceptable under the circumstances. Then we'll have a shoestring defence of one warrior scouting north, one warrior fogbusting the gems city site, one warrior lurking north of the capital and two workers positioned to chop out a settler. So that settler is probably a turn slower than a "grow lots, build only two warriors" plan

I like this approach and Tachy's plan for SH too. Scouting should probably be directed towards the stone for the appropriate settling site and then the NW for AI's and resources.
Where should the gems site fogbuster be located? on the corn, or further north/south?

 

[frogdude]

While those better at micromanaging than me do their stuff, I thought I'd put some thoughts together on plans for these warriors.
Obviously, these plans will have to be quite fluid as info comes to hand and other lions turn up!

General Warrior objectives in no particular order. The priority of these is up for debate:
1. Scope out peninsula to west
2. Follow landbridge west if it exists
3. Scout out Stone Crab site
4. Follow north west coast / General northerly scouting
5. Fogbust Gems city site
6. Northern fogbusting

There are 5 possible barbarian spawn sites to the south, so we will need to be prepared to scramble a defense if needed. That will drop to zero with the culture pop.

So I propose:
Warrior A heads NE-NE-NE. He won't see too much from that hill, but it's a start. After that, maybe something like NW-NW-NE-NE. If we start seeing tundra, then we don't really want to adventure into it.

Warrior B tries to follow in Toto's footsteps. Something like NW-SW-SW-W-W to pay his respects at Toto's grave, and then SW-W. As per Toto's plan, if landbridge, follow it, else skirt back up the western coast.

Warrior C will be the primary escort for the settler. Assuming neither A nor B had to turn back due to what they find, he should have time for a side mission first though of NW-NW-NW to have a good look from that hill. From there, he heads SW-S through the jungles (and good lake visibility).
One plan is to park there, wait for settler to head NW out of Washington. He then heads SW to check the coast is clear, while the settler dashes to the gem square. For the last bit, he heads to the sugar square and the settler heads to the plains hill where he'll settle. I am boldly assuming a settle on the PH south of wheat for this, so feel free to suggest alternate settling sites and we'll adjust the approach plan as a result.
Alternatively, he could just park on Toto's grave prior to the settler leaving washington. That gives us better defensive bonuses against stuff coming from the west (which will be possible if landbridge), however may open us up to wolf/panther coming out of nowhere and hitting the settler in the open on the gem square.

 

[Manco Capac]

Just a quick assumption regarding possible kind of mapscript thanks to the glitch in water at the extreme east plus thus the hypothesis of a small bridge...team battleground.
Supposedly, this kind of map is ultra small, so I don't know if it is a good assumption.

 

[bcool]

macro level thoughts (I unfortunately don't have much time to contribute to micro)

I would much rather devote our early resources to getting a wonder that gives us unique benefits (The Great Lighthouse) rather than one that gives us benefits we could get some other way (Stonehenge).

The Great Lighthouse could be very strong on this map because our next 3-4 cities could easily be coastal. Those coastal cities get 2 extra trade routes, and the city that built it gets some culture and we get Great merchant points. Those trade routes will be small to start with, but will be there for the rest of the game (presumably) and could grow to quite a bit depending on the map. We can't get these trade routes any other way. The commerce from these trade route will help all victory paths.

Stonehenge gives use cheaper and possibly faster monuments, some large and small culture, and great prophet points. The cheaper and faster monuments give us some faster border pops (and +1 ), but I don't see a large number of our early settling spots being limited by later border pops or happiness. The monuments can still be built in the cities where we need them, just at a distributed higher cost than building stonehenge. So Stonehenge is a nice wonder if we want a cultural victory (since it will produce significant culture in the city that builds it and some in other cities with the free monuments). I don't see Stonehenge's benefit for any other victory condition.

I am willing to pay a bit more for my monuments in the cities that need them if it means we get the Great Lighthouse instead. (or some other wonder).

Can we get both? -- I highly doubt this would be wise. I want to devote worker actions especially to making the Great Lighthouse possible.

I think we want 1 city building an early wonder and the others building defenders/explores and or settlers/workers. Thus, trying for both would likely cripple our early expansion.

Edit: Micro (beyond option B 3 warriors)

I'm happy with option B and 3 warriors. I hate to ask since I don't have time to test, but are we sure that a worker next is best after the 3 workers warriors? What about growing to 4 (building something), then on pop 4 growth switch to settler, possibly timing a chop into it and then a 2 pop whip for max overflow. Overflow goes into the 2nd worker.

another option
grow to 4 (building something), then on pop 4 switch to settler with 1-2 chops into it, finish settler
Then start another settler planning a 2 pop whip of this settler with max overflow into a worker. (or the reverse 2 pop whip a worker with max Overflow into the settler)

I think Kaitzilla was suggesting we interrupt the worker build, but I assume we are not doing this since we are so close with the worker.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I think Kaitzilla was suggesting we interrupt the worker build, but I assume we are not doing this since we are so close with the worker.

No, please finish the worker first!

What I meant was to build a warrior in 4 turns after the worker is completed.

I fully consider a dead Toto to be merely -15 hammers at this point. I'll take 80% odds all day. Pretend for a moment he got promoted to combat I and got clobbered down to 0.1 hp. He'd spend 9 turns standing still healing up. I'd only cry if he had made it half way around the world and then died.


As far as macro goes, I favor sailing over roads at this point. Until a strategic resource shows up like copper or horses, there is really no need for roads. We have plenty of happy and health. When we set up 2 coastal cities, they will form a trade route with each other with a tiny bit more fog busting down south. The Great Lighthouse is about the best wonder in the game if you can get it on a watery map.

Since we are on the eastern edge of the map facing paired AI, I don't think simply taking their wonders from them in a timely manner is possible with normal speed.

Like Bcool, I also consider Stonehenge to be a huge gamble. Something like half the game's AI started with mysticism to pop hinduism and buddism so quickly. The paired AI will tech like they are at immortal difficulty with double beakers and only 50% increased costs until the lack of trading partners slows them down to emperor teching pace around feudalism. A 1Hammer to 1Commerce failure-gold payday would be terrible for us to take this early.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ya, I like the plan B that makes 3 warriors and then flows into a worker->settler.

Frogdude's warrior plan also looks very nice.



Later on, I favor 2-pop whipping the 2nd settler and producing an archer with the overflow to go stamp out any trouble spots. The capital can then regrow.
I also like revolting to slavery while the first or second settler is moving. It feels like there is a lull in the game at such times.

 

[frogdude]

Like Bcool, I also consider Stonehenge to be a huge gamble. Something like half the game's AI started with mysticism to pop hinduism and buddism so quickly. The paired AI will tech like they are at immortal difficulty with double beakers and only 50% increased costs until the lack of trading partners slows them down to emperor teching pace around feudalism. A 1Hammer to 1Commerce failure-gold payday would be terrible for us to take this early.

All this talk about stonehenge made me examine whether our secondary city sites need a border pop to be viable and I don't think they really do.
Potential City Site 1: South of wheat. Because of the capital popping to get the gem+deer, that city effectively has all it's goodies without a border pop of it's own. Eventually, it will want the lake square, but that great lighthouse produces culture right?
Potential City Site 2: Stone site NE*3? Depends on what we find out there, but at this stage looks possible to plonk it there and no border pop necessary to get it going.
Potential City Site 3: Starting to scrape the barrel now, and I suspect we'll find better northwards, but the city site W of marble is playable for a city that will just sit around and farm some cottages, and it doesn't need a border pop either.

I can't spot any city sites at the moment that actually need a monument at all, with the exception of the S-S-SE Crab+Clam site briefly mentioned by mabraham awhile back.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Dorthy being Charismatic: Sooner or later we will want Monuments for Happiness

For this reason, let's not be too hasty about avoiding Stonehenge, although I must admit that early Buddhism and Hinduism strongly suggests two AI Leaders with (free) Mysticism. We aren't likely to get Stonehenge anyway. Also, I definitely agree that we prefer The Great Lighthouse, if the map proves to be primarily a water map than a land map as I agree it does appear to be.

For test games, we need to be sure we have these two early Mysticism owners via early Buddhism and Hinduism (by say turn 7 minimum). Including Asoka and Gandhi should suffice in doing this, since only Personalities are random; the free technologies are fixed.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

Seriously...

I decided to prolong it to SH in turn 56

Why everyone is making a fuss about the SH? It is just an addition because mabraham was so happy face about SH. The point of my test is to test concerns of frogdude about choosing PH for a fast warrior instead of four turns of riverside sheep.
What was important was until approximately T42. Afterwards, it is huge and only ethereal theory.

And the conclusion is the first settler comes two turns later and the second, one turn earlier.

 

[mabraham]

I've become pretty lukewarm on Stonehenge... with Charismatic, gems and four calendar resources around, the window when the +1 from a monument is good is pretty small.

GLH looks like a decent target, though, but I want to test some things first.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Workers, Settlers and maybe other things:

When we complete Bronze Working, we should strongly consider chopping some Workers (2-4) who in turn can chop Settlers (3-5).

With vast numbers of forests in our capital, a vast number of options become available with the completion of Bronze Working, even if no Copper is found.

We will want to do a lot of serious test games at this point (completion of Bronze Working).

Writing -> chopping a Library -> hiring 2 Scientists (Philosophical trait +100% GPP) -> Great Scientist in short order -> Academy in capital or Gems city is but one possibility.

Mathematics -> Currency:

We should also consider (Writing ->) Mathematics some time in the future which increases chops +50%, but also opens up Currency for an extra trade route plus the option of building Wealth (rather than units/buildings/wonders in some cities) to increase Research % for short term boosts to gain later key technologies several turns earlier. Such as Construction (Catapults, War Elephants with Ivory), Civil Service (Bureaucracy), Calendar (Plantations/even M of M), etc. and can easily be traded for Alphabet, if we find an AI team that has it.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Snapping up Stonehenge in 1t, in case AI teams ignore it:

I've become pretty lukewarm on Stonehenge... with Charismatic, gems and four calendar resources around, the window when the +1 from a monument is good is pretty small.

It may cost us too much to beat an AI team to Stonehenge that is targeting the great wonder, if its even possible to do. At least two AI teams will all have Mysticism on turn 0, so we are unlikely to beat them. However, ...

The AI teams may inexplicably ignore Stonehenge thorough fluke of the RNG or the AI's logic. Later, when we have Masonry, Mysticism, Stone connected, Chops ready, we should consider a 1t build of Stonehenge. This comes close (I believe) to what Tachywaxon was suggesting. Note that with no hammers invested and three uncommitted pre-chopped 20H forests with Workers at the ready, we can snap up 120H (20H x 3 x 2) Stonehenge at 100% certainty (assuming it didn't get completed by an AI team already; the 3 pre-chopped forests can go into a settler if an AI gets SH just before we are ready to ponce on it).

We have a chance to get a 30H Monument (minus 1000 year culture doubling) in everyone of our cities (until the obsolescence of Stonehenge) for just 2 x 30H and we'd be fools to ignore it should the opportunity present itself.

Monument's +1 Happiness:

If we're not able to build/capture Stonehenge, Monuments are still a cheap way to get an extra +1 Happiness that can't be gotten any other way. When we reach Happiness cap without a Monument, even if our happiness cap is already 10-12, an extra +1 happiness can make a difference in our largest cities with 10-12 population by allowing an extra population via building a 30H Monument. It is the cheapest "happiness" building even considering +n happiness per building where Market at +4 Happiness for 150H is the next best and requires all four "Market enhanced" Happiness resources. Only the Globe Theatre can exceed it via its virtually unlimited Happiness. Hereditary Rule via 15H Warriors (though not a building) can be cheaper, but we must pay 1 Wpt above the free unit allowance plus 0-1 anarchy for the civics change.

mabraham, I do understand your point that we have many other cheaper means of Happiness, but at some point the Monument becomes our next cheapest form of Happiness.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

It may cost us too much to beat an AI team to Stonehenge that is targeting the great wonder

I think the thing that bugs them is the needed techs to research (Masonry and Mysticism) takes time and jeopardize in the process TGL, unlocked by Sailing coming after Mysticism and Masonry.

Since some people played some team play games here, I wonder what they experienced regarding wonder dates; are they earlier than usual because of tech sharing or other factor?

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BTW, I built the SH in two turns, investing a small portion of hammers from organic production (I think you use that term for non-slavery hammers). I wanted a worker taking care of the second city at all cost.

Still, it was an addition, the main reason of that test is to comfort frogdude's fears or discredit them.

 

[mabraham]

Since some people played some team play games here, I wonder what they experienced regarding wonder dates; are they earlier than usual because of tech sharing or other factor?

Unfortunately we usually play with Huyana and with our own teammates, so we often have resources with an Industrious leader, and so build everything ourselves...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

GLH looks like a decent target, though, but I want to test some things first.

The server still says our save is turn 10 (3600 BC).

mabraham, could you upload the save now, so team members can look at it?

Are we still at turn 13 (3480 BC)?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

The 1 turn Stonehenge sounds nice, but I think it would require roads in addition to mysticism and masonry.

Do we all agree on three warriors after the first worker? We should probably focus on getting to the midpoint of bronze working before strategizing too much. All the different plans begin to diverge there. The more scouting and turns we get in before bronze working finishes, the better plans we can lay. There are so many unknowns right now.

 

[Manco Capac]

Unfortunately we usually play with Huyana and with our own teammates, so we often have resources with an Industrious leader, and so build everything ourselves...

Right, that's unfortunate, but don't shulec and Kai make some tests at some point?
Anyways, just looked through Kai's game with Daniel name and found out SH was built in 1600 BC by MM. HC was inside the test game, was he constantly at war? => Nope. MM builds sometimes wonders, and not as often as HC. Moreover, he doesn't have stone.

 

[Manco Capac]

The 1 turn Stonehenge sounds nice, but I think it would require roads in addition to mysticism and masonry.

I see...