SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[shulec]

I didn't realize that we will offend two teams if we gift to the southern witches.

How many AI have four cities and does Genghis still have 2?

 

[bcool]

Yes we can gift the city any of the 3 known teams.

The southern witches zulu and mali are the worst enemy of both the northern and eastern witches. Mali have 4 cities and the Zulu have 3 cities.

The northern witches Mongols and English are not the worst enemy of anyone we know and have 2 and 3 cities respectively.

The eastern witches Vikings and Indians are the worst enemy of the southern witches. and have 3 cities each.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I'd say give it to the northern witches and avoid "trading with the worst enemy" issue. The English leader is Lizzy, a fast techer, so it might give us better stealing options.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

btw, do we have a clue (I wonder if it's spelled right) of which personalities we deal with now that AI's started adopting different civics (OR)?

 

[shulec]

I did a few tests:

The Diplo hit from trading with worst enemy decayed from -4 to -3 in 25 turns for 3 of 4 AI.
It further decayed from -3 to -2 in 46 (21 turns after last decay) turns for 3 to 4 AI.

The fourth AI did not decay at all in 50 turns.

All but two AI had 4 cities by until turn 89, at which time all but one AI had four cities. On turn 93, the last AI got four cities.

Conclusion:

The -4 diplo bonus may decay over about 50 turns. If the AI involved are unforgiving, we could have very upset AI a long time. We do have some time to wait until gifting the city.

I recommend we do not gift the city yet and hope the open border +1 diplo point will help the worst enemy situation. This all depends on how fast the AI start putting down their cities.

bcool, can you post some diplo screenshots or post the save?

 

[bcool]

The -4 diplo bonus may decay over about 50 turns. If the AI involved are unforgiving, we could have very upset AI a long time. We do have some time to wait until gifting the city.

I recommend we do not gift the city yet and hope the open border +1 diplo point will help the worst enemy situation. This all depends on how fast the AI start putting down their cities.

bcool, can you post some diplo screenshots or post the save?

thanks for doing the tests.

The hope that the open border +1 diplo point will help with the worst enemy situation confuses me though. The AI do not have open borders with each other, they only have open borders with us. So there will be a +1 diplo bonus for their relations with us, but that will not change how much they hate the southern witches.

I think the southern witches are the hardest to attack, so they are the best witches to gift a city too since they will likely be difficult to kill quickly and thus will be a likely candidate to vote for us. We want the ability to manipulate them easily with espionage missions. Also, the eastern and northern witches are close by so we have the option of kiling them instead of winning their favor. And we can send a spy over to do espionage missions against them if we want without a city gift. This isn't necessarily true for the southern witches since they are likely quite far from us.

Gifting the city to the northern witches is an option as they are not the worst enemy of anyone, and we could likely steal something from them easier in the gift city than walking/boating a spy over. Making friends with the northern witches might be a good call as they are smaller so less likely to be our rivals in any UN vote.

Personally I would rather not wait to gift a city to the northern witches if that is what we decide to do.
I have already moved the settler to 3E of washington and we have done the micro for expecting a city gift on T77. Now this isn't a great excuse, we can and should redo the micro if we delay the gift. Since this would mean settling cultural bridge probably instead with the settler we intended to gift. This would likely increase our maintenance and we would be hard pressed to supply worker support for this earlier cultural bridge city and keep a T86 pyramids.

I'll post the save and screenshots in a moment.

session notes

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1000 BC to 950 BC:

Turn 75, 1000 BC: Stone City can hurry The Great Lighthouse for 3⇴ with 27ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Gems City has grown to size 4.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South is the worst enemy of Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East is the worst enemy of Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Stone City can no longer work on The Great Lighthouse. The lost ℤ is converted into 168ℴ!
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Pebekkamen (Great Spy) has been born in Stone City (Dorothy)!
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Good Witch of the South converts to Hinduism!
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Good Witch of the East adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 76, 975 BC: Stone City can hurry Settler for 3⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 13 turns.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South is the worst enemy of Wicked Witch of the North/Good Witch of the North.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for Gems City.

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

 

[bcool]

btw, do we have a clue (I wonder if it's spelled right) of which personalities we deal with now that AI's started adopting different civics (OR)?

I don't think we know any more. I believe we either have to switch into the same civic to find out or possibly all we need to have the associated technology to enable us to switch into the favorite civic.

right now I think I'm agreeing with the northern witches option. There are some advantages to having our allies close--like the ability to spread a religion to them in a reasonable time frame.

 

[shulec]

The hope that the open border +1 diplo point will help with the worst enemy situation confuses me though. The AI do not have open borders with each other, they only have open borders with us. So there will be a +1 diplo bonus for their relations with us, but that will not change how much they hate the southern witches.

You are confused because I clearly didn't know what I was talking about. I won't try to explain why I thought this was the case, but will acknowledge that I was wrong. Based on testing, it seems that with time the AI will only start to dislike each other more, especially once religious lines are drawn.

Now that I understand the situation more completely, I think it will be too risky to take the diplo hit. I say we gift the city to the northern witches, but only after a few turns to see if luck will help us out with the southern witches. I would accept the diplo hit for one team, but for two, that is too steep.

We may also take a diplo hit from the fourth team. We can't do much about that though.

 

[bcool]

The problem with waiting to gift the city is that it takes away more good tiles from Washington as Washington's population grows. If we gift the city T77, then we only lose 1 turn on the corn farm, if we do it later it takes away the corn farm and the river grass mine for example. Since the micro on Washington is so tight, this might push back the pyramids to T87 (since we only just finish it T86).

I don't think the odds are very good that the worst enemy situation is going to change anytime soon, so I propose gifting the northern witches the city now T77.

 

[shulec]

I don't think the odds are very good that the worst enemy situation is going to change anytime soon, so I propose gifting the northern witches the city now T77.

I agree with the low likelihood of the diplo improving. I had not realized there would be negative consequences to waiting. I support giving the city to the Northern witches on T77.

 

[bcool]

Okay let's make the northern witches work then. I'll play again in about 30 minutes.

 

[bcool]

Okay T83 now, the Mongolian empire (wicked witch of the north whom we gifted a city) demands that we cancel our deals with the vile Malinese (good witch of the south).

by the PPP I deny the request, but considering our possible desire to make friends now with the northern witches I'm considering that we should stop trading the the southern witches. If anyone is online, I'll wait 30 minutes for a response. If I don't get a response I'm denying the request to stop trading as per PPP.

There is at least some chance that southern witches get alphabet first so denying ourself the opportunity to trade with the them could cost us quite a bit. And it probably is just a -1 relations hit with the Mongolian Empire.

other events
still no alphabet trade available
confu was founded by the zulus
gifted crabs and fish to english and mongols respectively T82 (per PPP I should have traded earlier but I was waiting to see if another civilization would give some trades)

 

[Walter_Wolf]

There is at least some chance that southern witches get alphabet first so denying ourself the opportunity to trade with the them could cost us quite a bit. And it probably is just a -1 relations hit with the Mongolian Empire.

I wouldn't stop trading. I never accept embargo requests in my games, but that's just me (not an expert on diplomacy really).

 

[shulec]

Cancel Deals Pro:

No negative diplo for refusing.
No worrying about the other three worst enemies demanding to cancel deals.
It is relatively early in the game, trading can probably be resumed in 20-40 turns (this is a pure guess).
It will be an easier decision to deny any demands from the south witches against their worst enemy, (the east witches, I believe.)


Cancel Deals Con:

Diplo hit with south team
No trades allowed for alphabet if south team gets it.
No resource trades in future too.


I am leaning toward accepting the demand. I would be open to declining the demand, trying to hold out until we have alphabet, but knowing if we get a second demand to cancel deals with the South Witches, we should accept.

The south witches are going to be marginalized. The question is when are we going to cut ties.

 

[bcool]

elizabeth's favorite civic is hereditary rule (apparently we find out when they adopt it)

I denied the request --sorry shulec, didn't see you post until after.

 

[shulec]

Is the question mark gone, replaced by the HR Icon on the F4 info tab?

 

[bcool]

yes the question mark is gone on the F4 tab

 

[Kaitzilla]

There are 8 AI personalities that have Hereditary Rules as their favorite Civic.

Suleiman
Joao II
Catherine
Huayna Capac
Louis XIV
Pacal II
Gilgamesh
Ragnar


Catherine can be bribed to attack anyone, and Ragnar refuses to trade with you until he likes you a fair amount. These will be the two personalities easiest to check.

I'm not sure how to narrow it down further until we see how Elizabeth reacts to other's religions, how many units she builds, and what her attitude is towards other AI personalities we are able to identify.


I'm surprised they have not researched Alphabet yet. Code of Laws and Monarchy have been discovered though.

 

[bcool]

session notes

T75 gifted deer to mongolians (wwN) (I think mongolians have isabella's personality--making lots of missionaries--just a guess)
T76 gifted sheep to english (gwN)
T76 forest grew near copper/horses 1E of sheep (chopped this instead on T84)
T77 gifted a city to gw N (Elizabeth) instead of ww S (Zulu) because of worst enemy diplo penalties. The southern witches were worst enemies of the north and eastern witches.
T78 confu founded
T79 gw S adopts caste system
T82 gifted fish and crabs to gw N and ww N respectively I believe
T83 temple of artemis built by presumed western witches
T83 refused mongolian empire demand to stop trading with southern witches (weird, the diplo hit from refusing was there and now it is already gone)
T84 gw N adopted hereditary rule and found out this is Elizabeth's favorite civic (edit: checked she doesn't have Catherine's personality well not sure about this she won't declare war because she would have nothing to gain so not sure this definitely means she isn't Catherine's personality)
T86 pyramids chops completed will succeed on this wonder

Elizabeth is pleased at +5 modifier (should track these changes so we can figure out the hidden modifiers)

with the exception of the city gift to northern witches instead of southern witches everything went to plan. No alphabet trades yet.

so the test game on this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10929011&postcount=1181 should be quite accurate with the exception of the forest 1E of copper/horses that is gone in test game but is still there in real game.

Spoiler :

News Update: The Wizard of Oz is still alive

Here is your Session Turn Log from 950 BC to 725 BC:

Turn 77, 950 BC: Boston has been founded.

Turn 78, 925 BC: Philadelphia has been founded.
Turn 78, 925 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 79, 900 BC: Good Witch of the South adopts Caste System!
Turn 79, 900 BC: Wicked Witch of the South adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 79, 900 BC: A American revolt has taken place in Boston!

Turn 80, 875 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Stone City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 80, 875 BC: The borders of New York have expanded!
Turn 80, 875 BC: Wicked Witch of the South converts to Confucianism!

Turn 82, 825 BC: Louis Daguerre (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 83, 800 BC: New York has been founded.
Turn 83, 800 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 83, 800 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 84, 775 BC: The enemy has been spotted near New York!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Gems City can hurry Worker for 2⇴ with 25ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 17 turns.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Washington.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for New York.
Turn 84, 775 BC: You have trained a Settler in Washington. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.
Turn 84, 775 BC: You have trained a Worker in Stone City. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Mencius (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Good Witch of the North has founded Canterbury in a distant land.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Good Witch of the North adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 84, 775 BC: Wicked Witch of the East has founded Birka in a distant land.

Turn 85, 750 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Washington.
Turn 85, 750 BC: GP Farm will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 85, 750 BC: You have trained a Worker in Gems City. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 86, 725 BC: GP Farm has grown to size 3.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Good Witch of the North will trade Cow
Turn 86, 725 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Washington.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Washington.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Washington.

autolog T75-T86

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [27-Sep-2011 17:12:57]
Stone City begins: Settler (6 turns)
Gems City begins: Settler (8 turns)

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [01-Oct-2011 04:38:09]
Stone City begins: Settler (6 turns)
100% Research: 36 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -12 per turn, 43 in the bank

After End Turn:
Washington finishes: Worker
Pebekkamen (Great Spy) born in Stone City
Gems City finishes: Archer

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Good Witch of the South (Mali) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia) towards Good Witch of the South (Mali), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings) towards Good Witch of the South (Mali), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Good Witch of the East(India) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [01-Oct-2011 04:44:42]
Washington begins: The Pyramids (63 turns)
Gems City begins: Settler (8 turns)
100% Research: 33 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -14 per turn, 199 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Stone City
Stone City finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [01-Oct-2011 15:42:14]
Stone City begins: Library (18 turns)
Boston founded
Boston begins: Monument (30 turns)
Boston lost
100% Research: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 185 in the bank

After End Turn:
Washington grows to size 4
Stone City grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Dorothy (America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 78/500 (925 BC) [01-Oct-2011 15:46:20]
Stone City begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Philadelphia founded
Philadelphia begins: Monument (8 turns)
100% Research: 33 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -21 per turn, 170 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Gems City
Gems City finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Confucianism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 79/500 (900 BC) [01-Oct-2011 15:52:23]
Gems City begins: Library (23 turns)
100% Research: 33 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -22 per turn, 149 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Stone City
Washington grows to size 5
Stone City grows to size 5
Gems City grows to size 3
New York grows to size 2
New York finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Good Witch of the South(Mali) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'
Civics Change: Wicked Witch of the South(Zululand) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 80/500 (875 BC) [01-Oct-2011 15:57:43]
New York begins: Work Boat (6 turns)
100% Research: 41 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -24 per turn, 127 in the bank

After End Turn:
Stone City finishes: Warrior
Gems City grows to size 4
New York's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand) from 'no State Religion' to 'Confucianism'
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the South (Mali) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 81/500 (850 BC) [01-Oct-2011 16:03:54]
A Fishing Boats was built near New York
100% Research: 42 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -22 per turn, 103 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Gems City
Washington grows to size 6
Stone City grows to size 6

Turn 82/500 (825 BC) [01-Oct-2011 16:09:12]
Washington begins: Settler (6 turns)
Stone City begins: Worker (4 turns)
A Mine was built near Gems City
100% Research: 44 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -23 per turn, 81 in the bank

After End Turn:
Gems City grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 83/500 (800 BC) [01-Oct-2011 16:17:19]
Diplomacy (Embargo Request): Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia) asks Dorothy (America) to stop trading with Good Witch of the South (Mali); Dorothy REFUSES.
Gems City begins: Worker (4 turns)
New York founded
New York begins: Monument (15 turns)
50% Research: 24 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
50% Gold: -5 per turn, 58 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mathematics

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the East (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 84/500 (775 BC) [01-Oct-2011 16:50:29]
Research begun: Aesthetics (468 Turns)
A Pasture was built near GP Farm
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 53 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Washington
The whip was applied in Stone City
Washington finishes: Settler
Stone City finishes: Worker
New York finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings) towards Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Good Witch of the North(England) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 85/500 (750 BC) [01-Oct-2011 16:58:43]
New York begins: Granary (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 68 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Gems City
Gems City finishes: Worker
GP Farm grows to size 3
Silver City finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand) towards Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 86/500 (725 BC) [01-Oct-2011 17:06:57]
Silver City begins: Granary (15 turns)

trade for cows became availiable with gw N (elizabeth) on T86 I assume we should take it either by canceling sheep trade or by trading corn or rice for it.

Apparently the resource gifts give us commerce (at least on the F2 screen I noted we were getting 6 commerce from foreign trades even though we only have 1 foreign trade route for 2 gold (from the city gift)

somebody has metal casting too (the western witches) since a great engineer was born. Probably what was selected with the oracle.

I forgot to switch our espionage to the northern witches after the city gift. So espionage was only switched on T86, so we have 244 on eastern witches. sorry.

great prophet was born but no Christianity and no holy city, so probably settled.

Our score graph isn't looking too hot

attached screenshot of the small amount of area the great spy uncovered for us. found some wheat I believe and I was maximizing his western movement rather than focusing on defogging tiles in the hub.

edit: the barbarian warrior fled from our archer and ran past columbus. He got away

 

[bcool]

Sun Tzu Wu... waiting
mabraham... UP NOW
Tachywaxon... on deck
Walter_Wolf... in the hole
Kaitzilla... waiting
frogdude... waiting
bcool... waiting
shulec... waiting