SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

Since we agreed for you to learn Metal Casting in 4 turns, you could technically go 100% this turn then check if next turn you'll be able to research it in a single turn. If yes, you could then go to 0% next turn.

The only potential savings from doing the calculation would come if Metal Casting came up for trade next turn, otherwise you could just go to 100% for this turn and figure it out next turn (if next turn we can learn it in 1 turn, then next we'd go 0% next turn then 60% or whatever on the following turn).
 
No worries. I got it with 0%/100%/70%. ;)

We popped a GS. :)

Asoka's copper city has two archers (one CG) and it's only pop 1.

We've got a trade network connection with MM now, via Aztec lands. He and Shaka also founded Christianity.

Nothing else interesting. I'll post my further thoughts and some screenshots tmr morning, as I'm busy right now.
 
No worries. I got it with 0%/100%/70%. ;)
Good job. :goodjob:


We popped a GS. :)
Woohoo, some good luck to make up for Toto's loss.


Asoka's copper city has two archers (one CG) and it's only pop 1.
Well, razing it could mean 2 less Longbowmen IN THAT CITY but likely a ton more units in all of his other Cities. I think that we should just stick to the "build a stack and attack his capital as the primary initial target" approach.

A Size 1 City shouldn't be too hard to pick off at a later time and capturing/razing it now wouldn't prevent any units from being whipped, so I see it as a total non-factor for influencing our war date.


We've got a trade network connection with MM now, via Aztec lands.
More great news, considering that we'll soon lose Trade Routes with the AIs from the east.
 
bbp: latest save?

I guess I could play a turnset so we have more than just one guy playing. I don't really have a lot of time, but I'm not sure how much planning is necessary anyway.
 
Ok, I uploaded. Bulbed Machinery already, so we can see what it would take to potentially tech Optics. It's 5t right now, with Rep. I think we should switch to PS this turn, though, and just bulb.

I can play 5 more turns through Astro today or tmr. If you could take over for a bit after, that would be great.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 50 BC to 50 AD:
Spoiler :

Turn 113, 50 BC: You have trained a Explorer in Pigs City. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.
Turn 113, 50 BC: The borders of Bridge City have expanded!
Turn 113, 50 BC: The Statue of Zeus has been built in a far away land!
Turn 113, 50 BC: Zhang Qian (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 114, 25 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 115, 1 AD: Pigs City has grown to size 7.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Stone City has grown to size 7.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Silver City has grown to size 4.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Silver City can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 21ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Good Witch of the South has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Panama City will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 115, 1 AD: Bridge City will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 116, 25 AD: Washington can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 16ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Silver City can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 27ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 22 turns.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Panama City has grown to size 4.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Panama City can hurry Galley for 1⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Bridge City has grown to size 2.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Bridge City can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 23ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Corn
Turn 116, 25 AD: Silver City will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 116, 25 AD: Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist) has been born in Gems City (Dorothy)!
Turn 116, 25 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Stone City. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.
Turn 116, 25 AD: Good Witch of the South has founded Tekedda in a distant land.

Turn 117, 50 AD: Ivory City can hurry War Elephant for 1⇴ with 32ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Silver City has grown to size 5.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the South has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the West/Good Witch of the West is the worst enemy of Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the East/Good Witch of the East is the worst enemy of Good Witch of the South/Wicked Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the West/Good Witch of the West, Wicked Witch of the North/Good Witch of the North.
Turn 117, 50 AD: Good Witch of the South will trade Meditation, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the South will trade Meditation, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Good Witch of the West will trade Meditation, Monarchy, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Good Witch of the North will trade Meditation, Monotheism
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the West will trade Corn
Turn 117, 50 AD: Good Witch of the North will trade Corn, Cow
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the East will trade Copper
Turn 117, 50 AD: Will Sign Open Borders: Good Witch of the South, Wicked Witch of the South
Turn 117, 50 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
 
Screenshots:
Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0120.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0121.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0122.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0123.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0124.jpg

 
Well, razing it could mean 2 less Longbowmen IN THAT CITY but likely a ton more units in all of his other Cities. I think that we should just stick to the "build a stack and attack his capital as the primary initial target" approach.
Yeah, exactly. It's not worth it just yet. It is, however, blocking our path to the capital.
 
More great news, considering that we'll soon lose Trade Routes with the AIs from the east.
No such thing. We don't have OB with Asoka and Ragnar.
If and when Liz/Genghis attack, we'll probably lose all TRs for a while, though.
 
Ok, I would propose the following:

T0 Revolt to PS
T5 Astro is complete with 3 bulbs, 0% science all the way; upgrade two galleys to galleons and whip 3 more
T6 Galleons get to Bridge
T7 Load and set sail
T8 DOW
T9 Unload at capital
T10 :ar15:

I'll have to check the unit numbers. Getting 5 galleons full by T+7 might be a bit of a stretch, but I haven't accounted for PS in previous calculations.

Our explorer landed on England's east coast this turn. Our power is currently even with the highest AI, so I don't think they're nearly ready. Still, I'll see about setting up a galleon whip in Pigs during this set, too.

Maginot Line is still intact. We should disband it any turn now, but I'll think about that after figuring out the unit numbers for Asoka.

We need a decision on future GP's. If we want one from Stone circa T140, we shouldn't whip there. Washington will keep running 2 Sci and eventually pop another one (circa T144 without Stone or T148 after Stone).
 
babybluepants said:
Turn 113, 50 BC: The Statue of Zeus has been built in a far away land!
Do we know who built it? As long as it wasn't the AIs from the east, we won't have to worry about it at all for now, anyway.


babybluepants said:
Turn 117, 50 AD: Wicked Witch of the East will trade Copper
The downside is that even if we pillage all of Asoka's Copper, Ragnar will still get Copper. The potential plus side, as I mentioned earlier, is that we can miss pillaging one of Asoka's Coppers and he won't have it--which may not help if Asoka has Iron.

What does the F4 Resources screen look like? Does Asoka want Iron from us?


babybluepants said:
It is, however, blocking our path to the capital.
Starting from NE + NE of that City (it looks like Madurai from the screenshot?), we can declare war then move S, S, SW, SW with Galleons, allowing us to drop off units on the Plains square (it looks like a Plains River Wine) that is located 2S of the Desert Copper. That River may or may not potentially give our units an "attacking across the River" penalty, so we might not be able to land in an ideal attacking spot by Asoka's capital until turn 2.

Are you able to tell where his capital is placed? If yes, can you tell if by landing on that Plains (River Wine?) square whether we'll face a River-crossing to attack his City or whether we can even reach his City from that square at all?

If it's a good spot to attack from, then we can aim to land our troops there by first positioning the full Galleons NE + NE of Asoka's northern City with full movement points before declaring war. On the other hand, if we'll have to move a bit further inland before having a good spot to attack his capital, we won't need to spend a turn moving our Galleons NE + NE of his northern City, as we'll essentially have 8 movement points to use up for positioning the landing of our stack, meaning that while we'll be at war for a turn without being able to land troops, we'll save a turn before the war by not needing to get our Galleons into position for a turn before declaring war.


Regardless, attacking his northern City first still isn't a good option, as we still wouldn't save a turn in getting any closer to his capital by capturing his northern City and that northern City is marginal enough to be ignored initially and razed (not captured) when we do attack it sometime in the future after taking Asoka's capital.


babybluepants said:
No such thing. We don't have OB with Asoka and Ragnar.
Fine, you're right. Still, getting Trade Routes with the AIs from the west is great news. :)


If we Lightbulb Optics, which we should probably do unless someone comes up with a really strong case not to do so, what tech do we set our Research to next? Engineering at a 0% Science Rate, right?


Elizabeth's Scout is definitely mapping out updated views of our empty Cities. On the plus side, it looks like we have an Explorer over at Elizabeth already, right?


We may need to be careful with our Work Boat near the Barb Galley when we get close to that small (1-square in size?) island to the SW + S + S of Nottingham, as that island might just give the Barb Galley a chance to catch up by 1 movement point, depending upon which direction we travel. Fortunately, Lightbulbing Optics should give us an extra bit of needed visibilty to help in seeing what's ahead, so that we can avoid missing a short cut that the Barbarian Galley will definitely take in an effort to kill us.

Unless it looks like our Work Boat will die no matter where we move, I suggest that the City in which we hide from the Barb Galley not be Nottingham but be either a more southern English City or even one of Genghis' Cities.

Again, the emphasis is on keeping the Work Boat alive, so if we need to hide in a City just to stay alive, do so, but otherwise it would be nice to lure the Barb Galley a bit deeper into AI territory so that the Barb Galley doesn't get the idea of wandering back into our territory at an inconvenient time.

Any potential scouting of Elizabeth's area with our Work Boat lure is just a bonus and shouldn't be the main focus of our Work Boat at all, as we can always complete that scouting job later once the Barb Galley has wandered far enough away after we hide out in an AI City for a while.
 
babybluepants said:
Maginot Line is still intact. We should disband it any turn now, but I'll think about that after figuring out the unit numbers for Asoka.
I'm still not 100% certain about this point.

One huge advantage of keeping the Maginot line in place is that Ragnar is effectively kept out of the war with us. If we get rid of our Maginot Line, we may not only have to face the odd Barb unit but we'll also be at risk of Ragnar marching a stack of doom up to our borders.

The cost of keeping a couple of extra units around within our Cultural Borders (a small amount of Gold per turn) plus the cost of having to build a couple of extra Military Police units (a couple of extra Archers) is probably gong to be worth not having any fear of AIs marching stacks at us.

In fact, we could possibly even toy with some of the AIs by using the Maginot Line... for example, once Asoka is marginalized, we could move a Warrior slightly out of the war, opening up the Maginot Line. At THAT point, we'd probably be more than happy to have Ragnar start marching some of his units out of his Cities, so that his Cities will be easier to capture. The hope will be that his units will not make it close enough to our area before can capture his main Cities. We could then optionally reform the Maginot Line like 10 turns later to potentially cause his stack to "get lost" and not know where to go mid-march.

In light of the possibility of soon being at war with 4 AIs (if the AIs from the north declare war on us), I'm thinking that we will want to keep the Maginot Line in place, be it 3 Warriors or 2 Warriors plus 1 Axeman.


babybluepants said:
We need a decision on future GP's. If we want one from Stone circa T140, we shouldn't whip there. Washington will keep running 2 Sci and eventually pop another one (circa T144 without Stone or T148 after Stone).
The important question becomes: what can we do with such a Great Person or such 2 Great People?

For example, I imagine that a Great Engineer will Lightbulb Engineering for us. What about a Great Scientist?

If a Great Scientist will NOT Lightbulb Engineering, then we can't take the risk of delaying Engineering that long just on the slim hope of generating a Great Engineer.

In other words, if a Great Scientist won't Lightbulb Engineering, we'll be self-teching Engineering.

A Great Engineer could otherwise be potentially useful for constructing the Taj Mahal, but Nationalism is a ways off and we might never research it. I can't think of any other compelling use for a Great Engineer.

A Great Scientist would help us Lightbulb toward Military Science, assuming that we first traded for any intervening techs, but I'm also not convined that we want that tech. One thought is that we might eventually need it if the AIs get to Rifling, but a counter-argument is that the AIs are teching quite slowly and we might just end up speeding up their tech path to Grenadiers if we go for Grenadiers ourselves (through AI teams piggybacking off of our research).


If we want a Great Person for a Golden Age, then we really only need to focus on generating one Great Person, while the other City can focus on whipping and regrowing.

So, which City should make the Great Person? Well, Washington probably is getting large enough and has otherwise marginal squares that whipping might not make much sense there. In particular, we'd get more bang for our Food by whipping in a smaller City like Stone City.

That said, the original plan was to generate the Great Person in Stone City so that we will get three 100% Great Scientists for Military Science. I think that getting Grenadiers would be "neat" by would be by no means necessary.

In fact, against a Wizard with Drill IV, Grenadiers would be of no help at all.

That said, Grenadiers could make for really nice stack defenders and could also help us in cracking Musketmen units... but there is a cost associated with them, which involves having 4 of our Cities focusing on not whipping away population points. Since we probably wouldn't whip Washington regardless, that's more like 3 of our Cities (Stone not whipping much or at all now as it keeps 2 Specialists hired, while 2 other Cities not whipping now while they grow for a future hiring of multiple Scientist Specialists during a Golden Age).

Personally, I think that having those 3 core Cities (Washington isn't counted since it likely won't be whipping at all, except maybe whipping a Forge) not doing any whipping is a pretty huge cost and will set us back in our warring. If we focus on whipping up a storm under Police State now, the AIs might not even make it to Musketmen. Certainly, with stacks of War Elephants, we won't really fear AI Knights all that much, and even Musketmen can be dealt with sufficiently with Trebuchets and the odd War Elephant stack defender that dies protecting the stack from an offensive Musketman.

So, overall, I would say generate the Great Person in Washington and be prepared to whip away our population points (after revolting to Police State) in any of our other Cities that it makes sense to whip in (i.e. don't whip away citizens working Grassland Hills Mines except for in an emergency, but do feel free to whip away citizens that would otherwise be working a Coast square).
 
I'm happy to just keep pulling the barb galley further away. No need to get fancy in that English bay.

I don't think we can land in a great spot next to his capital on the first turn of the war. I'm assuming we'll have to attack across river from that spot you pointed out. Going to Madurai-2NE will also delay the attack by a turn, I think.

I'm cool with leaving the Maginot Line intact for now. We shouldn't need MP and keeping two WE's there in case a barb wanders over sucks, when we're gearing up for an actual war.

A GS would bulb Engineering after Astro, but we can probably about tech Engineering anyway by the time we get another GS. I'm not sure what happens to our tech rate in PS, but I'd guess it's possible.
 
I'm happy to just keep pulling the barb galley further away. No need to get fancy in that English bay.
My point was more that if you follow the English coast, depending upon how close the rest of the English coast is to that island, you could find the Barb Galley heading diagonally south-east next to that island while you're looping around the English coast, thereby allowing the Barb Galley to "catch up" to our Work Boat and kill our Work Boat.

The layout of the map PROBABLY doesn't allow such a scenario, but just watch out for those kinds of possibilities when islands are involved.

As I said, Lightbulbing Optics immediately should help out a lot in that regard, due to the increased visibility of our Work Boats.


I don't think we can land in a great spot next to his capital on the first turn of the war. I'm assuming we'll have to attack across river from that spot you pointed out. Going to Madurai-2NE will also delay the attack by a turn, I think.
In that case, I'd rather forget about going Madurai-2NE. Since it will take us 2 turns to land at a non-over-the-River attacking location, we might as well just aim to use 8 movement points instead of 4 movement points from our Galleons in order to get there.

That fact makes loading up our troops easier, as we can load the land units from a location that is more than 4 movement points away from Madurai-2NE; specifically, we can load the land units from the spots near our Roads as you appear to be planning on doing.


I'm cool with leaving the Maginot Line intact for now. We shouldn't need MP and keeping two WE's there in case a barb wanders over sucks, when we're gearing up for an actual war.
Okay, there's yet another good reason to leave the Maginot Line in place. Let's leave it in place then. I'm not sure what happened there, though... do we have 2 or 3 Warriors there... i.e. do we need to leave the Axeman there in order to keep the Maginot Line intact or is there still a 3rd Warrior there? It doesn't really matter too much either way--if we have a 3rd Warrior there, then the Axeman can board a Galleon, but if we are using that 3rd Warrior as a Military Police unit then the Axeman can just stay as part of the Maginot Line. It's not a big deal either way.


A GS would bulb Engineering after Astro, but we can probably about tech Engineering anyway by the time we get another GS. I'm not sure what happens to our tech rate in PS, but I'd guess it's possible.
Hmmm, okay, so we can either aim to not whip Stone City and generate a Great Person for Engineering, putting our small amount of Flasks into another random tech or else we can focus on whipping out more units from Stone City.

Either way, we should probably keep 2 Scientist Specialists hired in Washington (fire them temporarily if we are going to get a Great Person in Stone City if Washington will otherwise beat Stone City to producing the Great Person) such that the Great Scientist from Washington would likely be used to fuel a later Golden Age. The Golden Age could optionally switch us into Caste System + Representation if we find that we need late-game techs (air-based techs) to reach the Wizard. The Golden Age could optionally be used to switch us into Vassalage (at a point in the game where we'll likely control sufficient Cities for a revolt to count as 2 turns of Anarchy), so as to make our warring cheaper and more effective (and even allowing us to skip spamming Stables in order to get stacks of 2-promotion War Elephants at the end for a land-reachable Wizard... i.e. Barracks + Vassalage is better than Barracks + Stables for getting us those 2 Flanking promotions).

For now, of course, we won't bother with Flanking promos and our War Elephants can get Combat I promotions with optional choices between Combat II, Shock (anti-melee), and Medic I (at least one Medic I War Elephant should exist).


Anyway, back to the question... Flasks into Engineering and whipping in Stone City versus Flasks into a random tech, no or little whipping in Stone City, and aiming to get a Great Person for Engineering...
my vote would be to self-tech Engineering, since we don't have a better tech to get. Bureaucracy isn't amazing without an Academy to multiply its value and on a map where we'll be capturing a lot of Cities, plus learning Civil Service just leads to the AIs getting Macemen faster by piggybacking off of our research or being more liberal with trading Civil Service around, plus War Elephants are just as good as Macemen in many cases of amphibious warfare and are cheaper to build than Maces anyway, and learning Civil Service completely takes away the possibility of Lightbulbing Military Science, which we may just want to keep open as a "just in case" option into which we won't put much effort into achieving (i.e. we'll whip away the population points instead of saving them).

Theocracy from Theology would only be of marginal use, since we don't have a Religion and while we'd capture Cities with Religion in them we might still not run a Religion due to the Anarchy plus the reputation hit from having a heathen Religion as our State Religion. Theology would also (just like Civil Service) open up Paper, which would again mess up our potential Military Science Lightbulbing path.

Philosophy would also mess up our Lightbulbing, although I suppose that if we manually teched Philosophy then potentially the Lightbulbing of Engineering could still work (untested), but again, we don't really need a Religion-oriented tech, nor its Wonder.

Monarchy + Feudalism we won't want to get in order to reduce the chances of the AIs learning these techs for as long as possible.

So, honestly, I can't see any tech OTHER than Engineering in which we'd want to dump our manually-earned Flasks.

As such, my vote is to whip away Stone City's population points (wait until we have revolted into Police State before whipping, though) and to manually tech Engineering now, since we'll immediately Lightbulb Optics.
 
It's 110g for the upgrade. I think cash is hard for us to come by, but whipping galleons under PS is pretty easy. We do have cash for the two galleys that are down south right now. Seems like a decent use of the money in the short term.
 
Yeah, that's rather expensive. Okay, I'm fine with just whipping the others as Galleons. The only unfortunate part is that we can't whip the boats until the turn after we learn Astronomy, since the build queues won't get upgraded until the turn after... if they get upgraded at all... did we ever check on that... that Galleys actually do get upgraded in the build queues?

I seem to remember some boats not upgrading and I can't remember what those boats were (maybe Galleys, maybe Triremes, maybe Caravels, maybe a non-BtS thing, or maybe I just remember wrong)...
 
Don't scare me like that. Just tested - they do upgrade. You do obviously need to roll the turn after bulbing. So my schedule above is 1t too fast.
 
Maginot Line is a bit of a mess right now, as I wasn't sure what we were doing down there. I think we can bring back one warrior (from Pigs with Ivory rotating back to Pigs) in 3t, which would release all good units in time for Asoka. We can fill 5 galleons easily in 7t. If anything, it would be nice to get another ship, but we don't have anywhere to build it.
 
Sorry about the scare but better to be safe with a bit of testing than relying on something that we weren't certain about.

If anything, it would be nice to get another ship, but we don't have anywhere to build it.
I suppose that a larger-sized City that is building a Galley could whip a Galley post-Police State (to be the third Galley that gets upgraded by Gold) followed by building a Galley that gets auto-upgraded into a Galleon.

If we did so, note that we'd need to whip the Galley on the turn before we learned Astronomy or sooner. Whipping on the turn that we learn Astronomy would be too late and we'd just end up double-whipping a single unit. But, you knew that already.


That Explorer is going to be our lifeline, giving us that crucial bit of advance knowledge, what with so many undefended Cities that even an amphibious Warrior could raze them... :D
 
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