SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Andronicus]

Don't build wealth anywhere unless there's
a) less than +2fpt at size 2 (settlers) or
b) coast (galleys) or
c) no barracks (horses) or
d) no territory to be gained by culture (temple)!

I think that should have been b) no coast
Agree - esp anywhere we will later want culture expansion, we save 4g for every shield towards temple, rather than the 1 shield of wealth. The only other exception is if we plan gifting that town before anything would get built.
edit: I note 4 slaves clearing jungle which wont complete for 9 turns, by the time that tile is irrigated the game will be nearly over. One tile I would like cleared is the swamp E,SE of Isandhlwana - we should settle this site for 8 tiles (it wont need a temple). Also, I would chop forests and irr grass around St P, The Crypt and Silk City whilst switching to settler production.

It looks like it will be a tight race
Our biggest risk is if one AI takes out another costing us 10 turns.
I had a thought that we could gift a second town to each at risk AI. When victory is about to come we would take their capital (which uses up too many tiles) leaving them with a town with no cultural expansion. Further, if we space AI, us, AI etc at CxC and have rushed temples, the AI will get less than the 9 tiles as our temple's culture would be greater than their new capital.

Persians have gunpowder, but looking at their tiles I see only 2 hills which might provide salt. The odds of them having salt are low. Russia, Germany, Mongols and Greece could be researching guns (or trade Persia for it) and the latter 3 have terrain more likely to provide salt.
I wonder whether it is worth buying guns from Persia to see where the salt is?
They wont take our gpt as gpt rep is shot, but we could reneg peace, buy guns with gpt, then dow to get rid of our gpt payment (if we settled next to the Persian horse in our south we could make Xerxes furious and demand he leaves, but why bother?). Our troops could then go to Persia immed after Japan, provided Xerxes has no salt)
I think it unlikely any other AI will get to guns.
edit 2: Persians have a big headstart on Leo's which would be a big cost saver for us. In the embassy sceenshot 10 turns ago they had 23 turns left to complete at size 11 - they are now size 12 so perhaps another 10-11 turns?

Agree we need more galleys, we need to keep the troops moving

Celtia has no troops on the island and Hittite and Japanese galleys adjacent ... I am sure there is a cunning plan, is it gift at risk towns or retake with units after American campaign?
edit 3: just realised we are now at peace with Hittites, that still leaves the Jap galley, though.

Phili is defended only by injured units - we have 4 3hp knights which could attack. If we wait for the knights to heal fully, then any injured units in Phili will have healed as well as perhaps another defender will be rushed.
On the subject of rushed defenders, should we not gift rep (taking any spare cash) prior to each dow?

 

[Paul#42]

I think that should have been b) no coast

Of course. Edited.

I had a thought that we could gift a second town to each at risk AI. When victory is about to come we would take their capital (which uses up too many tiles) leaving them with a town with no cultural expansion.

Good idea. Their capital might have some MP then but we should have some armies or late knights then.

Further, if we space AI, us, AI etc at CxC and have rushed temples, the AI will get less than the 9 tiles as our temple's culture would be greater than their new capital.

But we'd have quite a flip risk with so much overlap.
I like that we'd seperate them - but they'd also have less than 9 tiles if we space them closer...

I wonder whether it is worth buying guns from Persia to see where the salt is?
They wont take our gpt as gpt rep is shot, but we could reneg peace, buy guns with gpt, then dow to get rid of our gpt payment (if we settled next to the Persian horse in our south we could make Xerxes furious and demand he leaves, but why bother?). Our troops could then go to Persia immed after Japan, provided Xerxes has no salt)

Worth a try, definetely.

Celtia has no troops on the island and Hittite and Japanese galleys adjacent ... I am sure there is a cunning plan, is it gift at risk towns or retake with units after American campaign?
edit 3: just realised we are now at peace with Hittites, that still leaves the Jap galley, though.

We should do that with any town we are about to lose.

On the subject of rushed defenders, should we not gift rep (taking any spare cash) prior to each dow?

yep.

Just trying to keep track:
Yilar - Up
ControlFreak - On deck
Andronicus
Paul#42
Markh
Denyd
Più Freddo - just played

 

[Andronicus]

But we'd have quite a flip risk with so much overlap.
I like that we'd seperate them - but they'd also have less than 9 tiles if we space them closer...

Well it would not become their capital until a turn or 2 before end, so a risk yes, but small. Some temples completing in the end game will give us some culture to reduce those risks too.

 

[Andronicus]

Current war happies
Egypt
China
Japan
Korea
Maya
? Rome (I note PT tied to MA v Aztecs, but we are now at war)

Also at war (and I dont think are providing WHs)
Babylon
America
Iroquois
Aztecs
Ottomen

Current trades
Inca supply furs (we'll take theirs soon enough)
Mongols supply wool
Greece has 2 turns remaining on 25gpt payment

Edit : we can make peace with Japan now getting their 56g (and get rop), then gift them their exile abode before breaking PT with troops optimally placed.

 

[Paul#42]

we can make peace with Japan now getting their 56g (and get rop), then gift them their exile abode before breaking PT with troops optimally placed.

And gift them Republic.
Good idea.

 

[ControlFreak]

No one really made any comments on the tile counting file I posted so I want to bump that concept. I took a screen shot so there's no zip file to download and open.

We don't HAVE to attack Greece, nor Persia. I took Andronicus' previous assessment of "higher defence" civs and put those civs at the bottom. We can reach the domination limit without facing them. Wouldn't we want the Celtic troops to hit Egypt first and from there help with Hittites, Maya, then China?

Perhaps the defensive civs have changed and need to be reprioritized, but it's worth discussing.

(Notes: the screenshot shows my estimate for domination, the number of tiles we are "missing" from our captured continents to support the prison camps as well as a running total for captured tiles. We've already added France, Celts and half of america to our territory. We will soon be adding the Inca and part of Japan. That leaves Iroquois, Korea, Japan, India, China, Egypt, Hittites, Maya and Aztecs.)


From what I can see, we've got some galleys to ferry troops from Inca to Iroquois, although I'm not sure there's enough units to survive both assaults.

I also think that we need more troop focus on India, both galleys and knights. Our troops have moved to the slow and sticky North and can't move via ocean waters up there.

 

[ControlFreak]

I wonder whether it is worth buying guns from Persia to see where the salt is?
They wont take our gpt as gpt rep is shot, but we could reneg peace, buy guns with gpt, then dow to get rid of our gpt payment (if we settled next to the Persian horse in our south we could make Xerxes furious and demand he leaves, but why bother?). Our troops could then go to Persia immed after Japan, provided Xerxes has no salt)

My only fear is that getting guns for ourselves makes it much cheaper for the other AI's to acquire.

While Persia was a lower priority because of the pikemen, they may be a better logistical choice because of our troops already in Japan as well as the potential for Leos. The persian tiles would make a nice substitute for the Hittite tiles which are harder to get to.

 

[Andronicus]

To add to CFs plan, I suggest we consider secondary islands as these will likely be lightly defended (ie Sumeria's Umma and Kish, Mongol's Hovd, ? Persia's Bactra), also Mayan Chinese settlement of Yaxchilan.
Another cheap source of tiles is land a settler and plant a city on islands which have tiles under forign control. (eg south of Ur on Hittite controlled territory if at war with Hittites but not Sumeria; south of Arabia's Kufa on German tile; east of Nampo on Indian tile; west of Bactra on Aztec tile; SE of Heliopolis on Sumerian tile; southern corner of Mongolian island on German tile)
Just noticed vacant tile on north of Persian island

I think we need only 8 more islands plus minor islands, crib a few sites as mentioned above and rush culture at the end

 

[Andronicus]

My only fear is that getting guns for ourselves makes it much cheaper for the other AI's to acquire.

Only AI likely to get guns are Mongols, Germans and Greeks - all have pikes and are not on our hit list anyway

 

[denyd]

Only AI likely to get guns are Mongols, Germans and Preeks - all have pikes and are not on our hit list anyway

Are you sure that there's no way to add the Mongols to our hit list? I truly enjoy spanking the butt of Ghengis

Just curious, but wouldn't MapStat give the same numbers that CF has so diligently accumulated?

 

[Andronicus]

Just curious, but wouldn't MapStat give the same numbers that CF has so diligently accumulated?

I've been using the land tile count in CA2 (but I didnt have the heart to tell CF after all the work he did)

Actually I've had second thoughts about the Persians. Whether they have salt or not, they do have pikes (4 vet pikes in Persepolis in the embassy picture) and the benefits of Leos at such a late stage when we will be more likely rushing culture than upgrading horses is not enough to warrant eschewing a weaker target.

Suggested targets
No 3 defence units and close proximity
Japan, Korea, India, Inca, Iroquois, Mayans, Sumerians ? Egypt ? Hittites - latter 2 logistically more difficult? alt Aztecs, China

I wonder if we should cont 2 forces
Eastern force -> Inca, Iroquois, Maya, Sumeria +/- China
Western force -> Complete America, Japan, Korea, India, China (or Hittites?)
This would allow us to concentrate forces, concentrate transports and concentrate reinforcements in the SE. I fear sending a force to Egypt may compromise reinforcements, and it will be hard for that force to progress unless we allocate sufficient ship chain galleys for reinforcements

From CFs proposed targets, I am wondering if we might be able to reach dom without Aztecs and Egypt, by stealing some town placements as I described previously.

 

[Yilar]

Okay I completed my set. Didn't have time to do the full 14 turns, so stopped at 9 turns @300AD. Most of my turnset was spent moving galleys into place.

Turn0 (170AD)
Take Philly, sell off crap buildings.
Sign peace treaty with ottomans

Turn1(190AD)
Capture Machu Picchu
Capture Cuzo
Capture Ollantaytambo
Capture Tiwanaku
Capture Tokyo

Turn2(210AD)
Sign peace treaty with Japan, as he landed units near empty celts island.

Turn3(230AD)
Have lost both armies at Inca, we are rather thin there, so the war is not going fast
But I got a new mgl.

Turn4(250AD)
Tiwanaku flips, but I retake it.

Turn5(260AD)
Take Corihuayrachina

Turn6(270AD)
Move units

Turn7(280AD)
Capture Huamanga (last incan city)
Capture Kyoto

Turn8(290AD)
Capture Salamanca
Sign peace treaty with baby for a little gold and gpt
Sign peace treaty with inca for a little gold and gpt.

Turn9(300AD)
Tokyo flips
Capture Niagara Falls
Built HE in Vladivostok

Unit status:
6 settlers
21 workers
1 scout
1 pikemen
75 knights
18 galleys
1 army (ya, I lost all the island armies, they are rather weak).
8 crusaders
1 AC

Iroq should fall soon. I have setup the attack for korea, but we still need to give them a city, somewhere. I wanted to capture the russian cap and give that to them, but I'm a bit behind . I have placed a settler to send up in the backspot for the next civ to get.



Atm, we are fighthing Japan with very few units, though Japan is rather weak atm, I have killed off most of his units, but I didn't have enough units/time to take more cities and Kyoto flipping kidda did suck. Iroq should fall shortly as there are over 20 knights overthere. Hopefully we can go directly for mongols afterwards using a RoP to land him.



If you ignore the japanese war (which we only need a few knights to win I reckon). I think we should try and attack with 2 fronts. One southern front that should go Korea->India->China->Maya-Germany and one eastern front that should go Iroq->Mongols->Egygt->Sumer->Hitties->Aztecs. Then we can ignore rome, greece and persia.





Oh and anyone care to explain why I couldn't clear marsh?

 

[Andronicus]

Good progress, we were due to suffer flips, we had been lucky to date.

Trades
We can get quite some gold / gpt
Arabs have 30gpt - not sure we can offer much for it since they have no harbour, anyway I suggest attacking Kufah after Iroquois (see below)
Greece have 22gpt + 119g avail. I suggest we reneg PT (they should pay plenty as we are so much bigger than they) getting all their gold and as much gpt as poss - we can give them lux (we have 4 excess) in exchange, helping their production and research wont matter at this late stage since we dont plan fighting them
Mongols have 18gpt - ditto to Greece (sorry denyd, but they have gunpowder now, I'd rather avoid them)
Persia have 11gpt - ditto to Greece
Zulu will give 25gpt + 5g for peace
Maya will give 3gpt + 23g for peace

Also can get rop from India for CoL, plus gift them rep or monarchy before attacking

Military campaign
I suggest our 2 forces go the following
Iroquois forces
1) complete Iroq
2) take Kufah after gifting Arabs a smaller sanctuary (should be a brief stop off for about 6 knights)
3) Maya
4) Sumeria
5) Egypt (if required)

Korean forces
1) Korea
2) India
3) China
4) Hittites
5) Aztecs (if required)

Tiles to domination - require 1904
Current 816
From culture expansions / settlers
- homeland 63 (879)
- America 30 (909)
- Celtia 40 (949)
- France 12 (961)
- Inca 22 (983)
- Iroquois 45 (1028)

From future conquest (plus expansion of island)
- Japan 100 (1128)
- Korea 150 (1278)
- Kufah 28 (1306)
- Maya 107(1413)
- China 137 (1550)
- Sumeria 141 (1691)
- Hittites 141 (1832)
leaving Egypt 88 and Aztecs 63 to complete domination

This leaves alone the gunpowder civs
- Persia
- Germany
- Mongols
- Greece
as well as Romans who remain average to us despite our 75 knights


MM
I am still perplexed why we are building wealth where either chopped settlers or temples appear better options
CC gets more gpt by working citizen rather than taxman - it can get to 20spt using DoD's hill and swapping tile with HH (better still to mine the irrigated tiles
The mining at Badajoz I dont get, we could hire a taxman there by the way without slowing growth

I think we could do with another 10 or so galleys
I suggest a few more troops to Japan - the longer we take to clear an island the greater the risk of flips (Kyoto is 40-80% flip risk according to CA2, and could be prevented with a mere 414 units!)


I am going to my parents on Kangaroo Island after work tomorrow to visit my parents for 4 days over Xmas and wont have internet access, so I wish you all a very merry Xmas and if Paul plays his turns quickly, I'll likely need a swap with CF. I should be back on board Sun night.

 

[Andronicus]

Oh and anyone care to explain why I couldn't clear marsh?

Sounds like the same as bug as in the last game - at this late stage it would appear fairest to leave as is.

 

[Paul#42]

I am still perplexed why we are building wealth where either chopped settlers or temples appear better options

me too.

I am going to my parents on Kangaroo Island after work tomorrow to visit my parents for 4 days over Xmas and wont have internet access, so I wish you all a very merry Xmas and if Paul plays his turns quickly, I'll likely need a swap with CF. I should be back on board Sun night.

If my roster is right, CF is up next - or did I miss anything?

Anyway, merry chrismas to everbody!

 

[Yilar]

I'll admit I made a few mistakes.

Switch Ellipi, Tomar, Baghdad, Paris, OO (when done with settler) and Isandhlwana+ Mpondo since we can't clear the marsh

St. Petersburg is the only city with chops, can we really complete 2 settlers before the end of the game? (and get them to a spot missing a city). Wouldn't we be better off chopping the 3 chops it got at the same time and sticking with 1 settler?

Sao Paulo, Evora and Luanda should probably start on galleys and then short rush with walls next turn.

As for city planting I did some counting and we only need to plant 7 more cities on our continent. 2 near our iron source, 2 near the babylon capital(nene, swsw) and 3 prison camps near the russian cap.

We should start loading settlers onto boats soon.

 

[ControlFreak]

I have a house full of relatives at the moment. Most leave Sunday. I don't mind taking the game and playing a few turns at a time, or we can wait for Andro to get the game on Sunday and I'll play after him.

 

[ControlFreak]

Hope everyone had a merry christmas (or whatever holiday you're celebrating)!

Looks like Klarius has gone to 5 turn sets for this age. I 've GOT IT, and will play to 350AD. Hopefully post by Monday.

I'm following Andro's attack plan. I'll make the recommended trades and settle the north per Yilar's SSs.

 

[Paul#42]

Whenever a peace treaty runs out, we should capture workers, pick off units outside the capital and disconnect roads so nobody gets the idea to attack any neighbour!

Incas are already exploring from their OCC . We might attack before peace runs out...

I don't have to mention what happens if ond OCC attacks another?

the rest sounds fine, go ahead.

 

[ControlFreak]

Save is here

Turn 0 (300AD)
Arabs give 17gpt + 19g for Re-Peace
Greece give 180g for Re-Peace, They still have a lot more gold to give. Furs Incense and Ivory in a separate deal for 22gpt.
Mongols only offer 20g for Re-PT. 18gpt for Furs and Ivory.
Persia only offer 80g for Re-PT. Furs Incense for 11gpt.
Zulu 5g+25gpt for Peace.
Mayan 3gpt+23g for Peace.
India ROP for Code. Will gift city and Republic later.

MM towns. Switch all but some inner desert towns away from wealth.

Declare on Korea.
Crusaders first - kill pike, die, kill pike, kill medi. Knights kill 2 spear, kill sword, die, kill r.spear, die, kill wounded sword. AC kills horseman leaving a 1hp sword defending.

13 movable knights head towards Iro capitol.

IBT
Korean sword loses to our knight. Resistance quelled in several towns.

Turn 1 (310AD)
Knights kill two pikes a medi and a horseman to capture Namp'o. Last victory gets us a military leader who makes an army. Last knight from the fleet enter Namp'o and load into the army along with some wounded knights. The Crusader from the fleet enters Namp'o and kills the spear. Knight on korean iron pillages incase Namp'o flips. A stack of 5 spears, 5 swords, a medi and a horse are coming from the south.

Move troops towards Iro. Holy crap a ton of knights take off on auto move!?!?

Moving workers back to core to better optimize. There are still towns below optimum size that should be joined or set to food.

MM to better allocate sheilds.

Rushing some settlers. I'm eating into savings. Should consider building only knights to save gold for rushing.

Sell 4lux to Germany for 27 of 33gpt.
Silkds to Persia for 11 of 16gpt.
Hold off on Greece as they have a gpt deal expiring next trn.

IBT
Hittite peace comes due and I don't renew it. They only had 17g to give when checked. They are on our hit list.

WLTKD in many towns. Don't know if they just hit size 6 or if the Hittite war is WH.
Mongols finish Leo's in Kazan.
Rome offer peace for Philosophy. They won't accept peace straight up.
Japan land 3 swords, archer and spear next to paris.

Turn 2 (320AD)
5 straight knight wins eliminate the Japanese landing party.
Found "Korean Bridge" with a babylonian settler to forward our position and have spare prison's. Reinforcements shipped to Korea via ship chain. 2 retreats but no deaths kills the stack of 3 spears, two swords and a mace. Second stack is two turns from bridge. We need some healing here.

Knights attack Grand River: die, 3 wins and we take the city.
Three Iro units killed and the island is ours. 6 galleys take their fill of knights and we're ready to land on Arab soil. Since I can't unload this turn, the galleys head around to the Mayan side. Attack next turn.

Realize with a new settlement on america that we left the iron on that continent connected, with no units there. Can't disconnect iron for a while so I put the road workers on mining.

Troops in Kyoto move to attack Edo with reinforcements a turn away. Turns out four knights were enough to take Edo with one death.

IBT
Mongols, Persia and Germany cancel their ROPs. Greece also, but we sell silks for gpt.

Coriacha (tundra with furs) flips back to the Inca.

Cascades from Leo end up with Sistines in Germany.
Turn 3 (330AD)
More knights boated to Japan. Free Knights kill the Mace near Kyoto and then capture Osaka without losses. Remaining knights climb hill by Satsuma. Galley brings more knights from Celt area and deposit near Tokyo.

Crusader takes the pike off the korean stack. Two more spears killed but we don't have enough healthy units to attack further without risking a counter attack. I rush a barracks in this frontline town to help heal faster.

Arabs are gifted a new town on inca island. War is declared and troops deposited near Kufah along with a settler. The settler will take advantage of the arab culture border to settle a town that would be under German control.

Russian war declared and worker captured. Army and Knight moves to hill nearby. Settlers follow.

Drop off a knight on the American island's connected iron.

Peace with Iro so the resistance can end faster.

IBT
Knights in Korean Bridge hold off four swords with no losses. Spear pillages the road, NBD.

France doesn't like our slave tresspassing.
Machu Pichu flips to the Incas.
Edo flips to the Japanese. Good thing I sold the harbor, so it should be a spear defender.

Turn 4 (340AD)
2 Knights ship chain to japan. First kills the spear and retakes Edo.
3 wins at Satsuma takes that town.
First Knight at Tokyo retreats from a 2/4 pike. Second kills r.pike, revealing wounded pike. No more units.

Settle Arab Assault stealing some German tiles. We obviously let the Arabs alone to long as we lose two knights to a stack of pikes and spears. Eventually kill a longbow to take the town. Remaining units clean up the spear and warrior and pillage the iron and other tiles.

Army kills two spears in Russian Guarda. Knight retreats from 2/3 spear which is the remaining unit.

The Inca flips are killer. They command so much of their old island with culture and there's only three units on that land. Plus they have enough units on our land to interfere with settling of prisons. I'm gearing up to transfer Iro knight back to Inca land but it's going to be a few turns.

Notice that Russia landed a Mace near Grand Rapids. Kill it but no leader, I'm in a drought.

IBT
Our Army in Korea defends against 4 swords and an archer and kills them all, losing 4hp.
Russia moves a LB from Nazere towards Paris.

Turn 5 (350AD)
Settle Penal Colony in our North. Paris Knight kills LB. Galley kills two spears and moves Russian capitol to Paris Island.

Rushed Galley from Oporto makes two trips moving 4 knights to Inca island. The knights from Iro are loaded in galleys. Next turn we can declare on inca and move knights into attack range.

Knights kill Pike and Spear in Tokyo and Japan is expelled from their island. Crusader takes care of the only spear left. Recommend we settle for peace to kill resistance ASAP.

Handing off.