SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[WastinTime]

What about asking him to attack a different city? Does that ever have any effect?

 

[Manco Capac]

What about asking him to attack a different city? Does that ever have any effect?

Hatshegawa closed border...I really wonder if Toku will deviate that much when a close city is immediate conquer.

My experience tells me once the SoD or any unit is next to a city; the city is doomed.

Pillage our own roads doesn't work as far as I remember. No use on this side.

 

[Manco Capac]

Feedback? Or I continue in hope next turn I DoW Lizagawa and get back the city while getting enough luck to steal all we need.

 

[mabraham]

Feedback? Or I continue in hope next turn I DoW Lizagawa and get back the city while getting enough luck to steal all we need.

I still do not understand what mechanism is preventing us from closing borders with Toku. We could do it in the last uploaded save.

Toku won't go to peace with Liz ("talk to her"), but one option could be to cease fire with Liz, and see if Liz will then give us Toku-Liz peace for the city gift(s).

 

[mabraham]

Last time we DOWed Liz she was willing to negotiate immediately after we'd taken those two cities. If we do a T127 cease-fire, gift(s), steals, DOW, capture, would anything prevent us from repeating the procedure T128? She'll have war losses so probably willing to talk T128 and we can go again for stealing.

 

[Manco Capac]

I still do not understand what mechanism is preventing us from closing borders with Toku. We could do it in the last uploaded save.

Toku won't go to peace with Liz ("talk to her"), but one option could be to cease fire with Liz, and see if Liz will then give us Toku-Liz peace for the city gift(s).

Well, all negotiations at diplo table will be cancelled after expiration of 10 turns just like a peace treaty. As regards forcing Liza to make peace with Toku: While a war, we cannot make trades, but tributes.
And cities never bring something on table, just gifts are accepted.

If I continue like it was nothing, Toku will reach and capture the city in 2 turns. Perhaps it's feasible to get all the techs, but we must be sided with luck.

 

[mabraham]

What about asking him to attack a different city? Does that ever have any effect?

Certainly vassals do what you say (in typical foolish fashion). IIRC AIs might sometimes do that if they like you enough, but probably not in this case. We could only re-target him on LizTown, anyway.

 

[Manco Capac]

Certainly vassals do what you say (in typical foolish fashion). IIRC AIs might sometimes do that if they like you enough, but probably not in this case. We could only re-target him on LizTown, anyway.

As said, it won't work. Toku won't make a superb detour for LizTown. AI is straightforward and will pass by the city, which lets the units in attack mode brainlessly.

In the screenshot, me hovering the cursor on Toku OB treaty.

Certainly vassals do what you say (in typical foolish fashion).

I think there is no difference between war allies and vassals. I never saw any difference when time to control their SoD's.

 

[mabraham]

Well, all negotiations at diplo table will be cancelled after expiration of 10 turns just like a peace treaty.

Cancelling OB is not a new diplo agreement. Surely it does not have a hard-coded expiry like peace treaties do. I still do not understand what mechanism is preventing us from closing borders with Toku.

cease fire with Liz, and see if Liz will then give us Toku-Liz peace for the city gift(s).

As regards forcing Liza to make peace with Toku: While a war, we cannot make trades, but tributes.

So that's why I said "cease fire" first. We'll be at peace so a city gift is possible, and if so I'd be surprised if we couldn't get something in return.

And cities never bring something on table, just gifts are accepted.

Really? You sure you're not confusing this with the fact that peace deals must be one-sided? We'll already be at peace.

If I continue like it was nothing, Toku will reach and capture the city in 2 turns. Perhaps it's feasible to get all the techs, but we must be sided with luck.

We will have a chance to do our final steals from TH on T128 before Toku can take it. Losing TH once we have done the stealing is no big deal. It'll flip back to us from Toku like it did before.

 

[Kaitzilla]

10 turns. Looks like everyone forgot that aspect of the trick. I'm coming with screenshot.

I think I understand. The open borders treaty between us and Tokugawa was canceled and then re-established T127? And now we can't cancel the new open borders until T137? That seems good. We would not have wanted to cancel it and then leave borders closed for a turn or more since peace between Tokugawa and Liz would seal off the eastern side of the map permanently.

If the worry is that Tokugawa will move to take Trojan right away requiring us to take it back the next turn, that seems acceptable. A backup spy going into Trojan Horse for further tech steals will miss its opportunity, but such is Civ 4.

I now see that Tachywaxon is saying that the old open borders treaty with Tokugawa hasn't been canceled yet, and we are still seeing the cancel in 10 turns thing come up. That is very weird!!! Does it do the same thing with Hatsegawa's open borders treaty? That would be horribly bad for our teleport chances to get our main SoD up to protect EastPort. In my tests I was able to close and then open borders with multiple AI and no problems came up.

 

[mabraham]

In the screenshot, me hovering the cursor on Toku OB treaty.

And what when you go into the F4 "glance" screen and hover over Toku OB? If there's a timer, that will say so. Last turn there was not a timer. There's been nothing that I've heard happen to create a timer... I don't think there can be one!

 

[Manco Capac]

Cancelling OB is not a new diplo agreement. Surely it does not have a hard-coded expiry like peace treaties do. I still do not understand what mechanism is preventing us from closing borders with Toku.

I just cannot close border, nothing can be done.
As simple as that.

Really? You sure you're not confusing this with the fact that peace deals must be one-sided? We'll already be at peace.

Cities cannot be used for trade as far as I remember unless tribute after war.
I remember how many times I said to the leader: what can be traded for that city. He replied: "Nope! No chance of any return. "

We will have a chance to do our final steals from TH on T128 before Toku can take it. Losing TH once we have done the stealing is no big deal. It'll flip back to us from Toku like it did before.

Possibly the best bet now.

 

[mabraham]

Tachy hasn't told us whether she's already done a close-open pair on Toku or not. Please tell us.

 

[Manco Capac]

And what when you go into the F4 "glance" screen and hover over Toku OB? If there's a timer, that will say so. Last turn there was not a timer. There's been nothing that I've heard happen to create a timer... I don't think there can be one!

Same. After 10 turns, we tend to forget there's always a timer. Thus the why of no timer.

 

[Manco Capac]

Tachy hasn't told us whether she's already done a close-open pair on Toku or not. Please tell us.

I did goddammit...

We have to accept once we approve another OB treaty with Hammuragawa, next cancelling will happen 10 turns later.

The trick with Hatshegawa is still maintained without probs.

Fresh OB, waiting time. Old OB, can be cancelled anytime.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I did goddammit...

We have to accept once we approve another OB treaty with Hammuragawa, next cancelling will happen 10 turns later.

The trick with Hatshegawa is still maintained without probs.

Phew! Great news. Yes, we can only abuse the "cancel open borders teleport trick" once every ten turns. Just have to double-check that both the AI and we still share a war before doing it.

 

[Manco Capac]

Phew! Great news. Yes, we can only abuse the "cancel open borders teleport trick" once every ten turns.

I mean if it works as the tests were showing, no probs. But any deviation in real is fatal!

We have to make decisions now because we really have few options.

 

[mabraham]

I did goddammit...

OK... now I can actually contribute usefully. "I forgot the 10 before OB. We are stuck with Toku!" doesn't get the full job of communicating done Much clearer is:

"Having done the planned close and open borders, we can't close borders again for 10 turns for the usual reason. So we're stuck with OB with him!"

I think we should proceed as planned. If the stealing works on schedule we should have time to re-DOW and capture TH. If we do lose it to Toku, that's not a problem at all - he can pay for it for a bit! In fact, maybe we just want to let him do that! It'll flip to us again soon. The window for stealing from LizTown is naturally wider, which is fine.

We will not be able to do repeat close/open tricks with Hammu or Hatse, so Tachy will need to consider that in what she's doing. Hammu's units should teleport far enough away for at least a turn or two of safe stealing.

 

[mabraham]

Also, the game settings prevent Toku from razing TH, of course.

 

[Manco Capac]

OK... now I can actually contribute usefully. "I forgot the 10 before OB. We are stuck with Toku!" doesn't get the full job of communicating done Much clearer is:

"Having done the planned close and open borders, we can't close borders again for 10 turns for the usual reason. So we're stuck with OB with him!"

I think we should proceed as planned. If the stealing works on schedule we should have time to re-DOW and capture TH. If we do lose it to Toku, that's not a problem at all - he can pay for it for a bit! In fact, maybe we just want to let him do that! It'll flip to us again soon. The window for stealing from LizTown is naturally wider, which is fine.

We will not be able to do repeat close/open tricks with Hammu or Hatse, so Tachy will need to consider that in what she's doing. Hammu's units should teleport far enough away for at least a turn or two of safe stealing.

Yeah, I write too fast I forgot words. Okay. I'll follow the plans as intended, same with Hammuragawa. Since Genghisgawa lands are not priority, then we have to cope with the fact we are forbidden to OB. We won't have enough EP to flip Lizagawa.

I continue to proceed.