SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

[Trystero]

Think I spoke too soon on wanting BW next. We need AH to pasture the sheep for gold city, so that's my pick for sure.

The first city will be placed with both gold and sheep in it's first ring to allow for quick developement.

I think this really depends on timing. If we go worker>settler, will the 1st worker will be busy improving Bollywood when we found the second city? There's not much point in teching AH if we don't have a worker free to improve the sheep. (My inclination is to grab that spot ASAP, even if we delay improving the sheep slightly). If we do go with BW first to chop, we need to time the chops to go into something useful (like a settler). This will require testing to work the timing out optimally. I was too drained from work/parenting to think very clearly last night. I'll try running some tests with Chris' save tonight.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I agree that our highest priority is grabbing sheep/gold before Tokugawa sends a settler toward us.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Again, the 2nd city site depends on what we see farther east, but if we settle N of the gold we can immediately work the deer tile (2F2H as is), which will be within Bollywood's culture by then. And Hunting is only 40% the cost of AH if we want those extra 2F with a camp. And we'll probably want to put a worker on that tile anyway in order to road it and connect our cities to reduce maintenance. I vote to stick with Agri --> BW. The location of copper may also affect our decision on where to settle, and mined copper is probably worth at least as much as pastured sheep. Plus the chopping and whipping benefits of BW.

I won't have any time tonight for test games.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I made a start at updating Trystero's spreadsheet - take a look. The info for turns 15+ is my best guess, since I don't have access to Civ right now. Feel free to update.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Looks like One Short Straw settled their capital on turn 0 (4000 BC). I think the culture graph shows Misfit Gypsy Nuts settled on turn 0 also.

Maple Sporks moved, uploaded a save, and are deciding where to settle on turn 1 (3960 BC) presumably.

 

[High King J.J.]

Tired. Will try to be brief. (That's a new one)
Suggest the following:
BW after agri. Want to see copper, please.
Explore the land.
Explore the sea when possible.
Find Toku and block his expansion (since he'll never give open borders he can be peacefully contained with a suitably placed city or two. At least I hope so.) Waste him when we have something better than warriors to do so with. Or when he attacks before we have anything to waste him with.
We want the AP. Also get theocrazy civic to kill Toku unless he's already dead by then.
Con/Dom may still be the way to go. (Better have it and not need it than fail to win by AP and not have it, right?)

Make me yellow for now, please. Too tired to think straight and just thinking of all that testing and optimizing hurts my head (more).
Good Knight. Zzzzzz

 

[Xcalibrator]

I corrected a few things on the test game: forest on deer, gold on plains hill, some rivers, etc. So far I've only fixed from the deer eastward. Weird that while in WB mode it doesn't show the bonus effects but it came out all right when I went back into game mode. I saved the worldbuilder file, too, but am not sure I can find it and I don't remember what it's good for. Anyway, let's see if I can attach something useful. (Yes, this file is the test game--it said my WB file was "invalid". As I said, nothing west of the deer has been altered yet.)

[Stop looking at this file! Look a couple posts down! I've now removed it.]

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Thanks. Can you also post a worldbuilder file? It should be one directory up from the saves in the WorldBuilder directory. We can use it to start new scenarios with different random number seeds.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I found the WB file and tried to upload but it said "invalid." Trying again... no go. I'll try to figure out what's going on. In the meantime, I think I've fixed all the visible tiles now, so here's a new test game.

[Bogus file removed]

 

[Xcalibrator]

Argggh! I screwed up somehow making the second set of revisions. Here's a 3rd and I think correct test game. Now about the WB save...

I loaded Chris's test game (not the WB file) and then opened the WorldBuilder. I selected Map mode and changed a bunch of tiles, somehow managing to get the !#% rivers to do what I wanted. Then I clicked on the WB "Save" button, calling it something like XcT14_2 (with an automatically appended .CivBeyondSwordWBSave). I then saved the game file (which is attached here) and exited to the Main Menu.

When I click on Save/WorldBuilder, however, there are a bunch of really old files (that I think I pseduo-mistakenly saved from SGOTM9 long ago) but not the file I just created. I have no idea where it is. On the bottom of the screen, however, it has a darkened "Filetype Extension" or something; I think it's only showing the normal Civ save files, not the WB saves, but I can't get it change that.

But when I am posting here and "managing attachments" I DO see the WB file, right where it's supposed to be (and not those other non-WB save files). But I get an "invalid" file error when I try to attach it. Is it possible for someone else to load the game save file and create a WB file from that and attach it? Argggggg. I'm done screwing around with it for tonight. I was just trying to work out some MM issues, etc. for the PPP.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I'm using the test game to see if we get the settler faster by completing the mine or farming the corn ASAP. But I'm very confused--it's taking 4 turns to mine a hill. Uh, I thought it was 3. What's going on? It matters because currently we come up 1 hammer short on finishing the settler, otherwise we'd be able to have it ready for movement on T30. I think I shall go have drink.

 

[Deckhand]

IIRC, primary open question is tech after agriculture.
I'm green for AAA to play kcd's PPP up to agriculture and pause. We should know more about the east then.

I didn't see any feedback on my idea to move guru (southern warrior) two tiles south to see the water and mountains (after healing). This would delay his eastward exploration.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Agri is only 7 or so turns away--I'd be happy to have AAA play that far and then pause. Regarding exploring south, I figure we'll be able to do that in plenty of time and it won't significantly affect our decision on where to settle next. It's probably more important to find where Toku is--maybe we'll want to settle even farther east to block him, and our window to catch a worker (if that's what we want to try) is short. But I don't really have a strong opinion about it.

But what about these 4-turn mines, huh? A simple answer: It's always 4 turns at normal speed--thank you for checking it out, Trys. I guess I was thinking of forest chopping. Bah.

 

[AAA]

Hello everyone,

Sorry I disappeared for a bit, I had a meeting on the end of a three hour drive

I've been playing with the test game a bit and I think that the CS slingshot might be available around 1100BC to 1200BC. Plus I believe that having both Bud and Hindu gone (as well as everyone already having a religion) will probably keep the AIs away from the Oracle tech stream.

Is this something we want to consider?

Maybe only 1100BC to 1000BC
1120BC for the slingshot, of course in that game the oracle went 1200BC. I'm sure my sloppy path could be cleaned up even more

 

[Trystero]

Agri is only 7 or so turns away--I'd be happy to have AAA play that far and then pause. Regarding exploring south, I figure we'll be able to do that in plenty of time and it won't significantly affect our decision on where to settle next. It's probably more important to find where Toku is--maybe we'll want to settle even farther east to block him, and our window to catch a worker (if that's what we want to try) is short. But I don't really have a strong opinion about it.

But what about these 4-turn mines, huh?

A pause when Agriculture is done sounds like a good idea. We'll have more info about the map and Tokugawa.

I just created a game identical to our settings and WBed the start location to sort of resemble ours. It takes 4 turns to build a mine in game as well.

Update: I checked some old spreadsheets. It takes 4 turns to build a mine at normal game speed.

 

[kcd_swede]

Hello everyone,

Sorry I disappeared for a bit, I had a meeting on the end of a three hour drive

I've been playing with the test game a bit and I think that the CS slingshot might be available around 1100BC to 1200BC. Plus I believe that having both Bud and Hindu gone (as well as everyone already having a religion) will probably keep the AIs away from the Oracle tech stream.

Is this something we want to consider?

Maybe only 1100BC to 1000BC
1120BC for the slingshot, of course in that game the oracle went 1200BC. I'm sure my sloppy path could be cleaned up even more

I'm not sure what keeps the AI from going for Oracle. We've delayed AI going for WW's before by putting some hammers into them, but that's not so much an option for Oracle (or is it?).

I think something to consider is that one of the AI is teamed. That means they have twice the tech rate and their techs cost 150% more. It also means that they could have FOUR starting techs compared to everyone else's two. I think the Oracle is certainly do-able, but delaying it for a CS-Sling is very high risk. We didn't take the agri gambit so maybe we want to take the chance... the way to win the game is to take one big calculated gamble and make it pay off.

I'm kind of with Rusten on BW maybe not being best. If we are going for CS-sling we probably want to save forests for when Math is done anyhow. Although hammers earlier is big, worker turns at the start are a limited and very valuable resource. We have resources to develop before chopping makes a lot of sense.

Also, if we are going to war with Toku soon, chariots are a LOT better than axes for taking down protective archers. A LOT better.

So maybe we should discuss more about what to do after Agri. But I think everyone is OK with the plan at least as far as to the completion of Agri, so maybe just put a pause at Agri and play it. We'll be smarter when we know more. (Well, we'll at least be less ignorant).

 

[kcd_swede]

It takes 4 turns to build a mine at normal game speed.

Yeah... at least at the start of the game.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Here's what kcd proposed:

PPP: duration to settler built (t31/2760BC)
tech: agri->BW
build order: worker ->settler (all at pop2)
micro: citizens working corn and FP until mine finishes, then corn+mine.
worker actions: 2t into mine 1W from Bollywood, start farming corn immediately on turn agri completes. go back and finish mine. (loses 1worker turn to movement; alternative is to farm the FP before mining, but it is slower to completion).

Status at completion: t31/2760BC 3warriors(existing, none built); 1settler (new), BW in 4t, new warrior in 2t.

Warrior moves: scouting, tandem eastward to Toku, lone warrior northwest but stay close enough to rescue Bollywood.

Pause conditions: If barb warrior or archer appears near Bollywood. If another AI is discovered. If worker steal opportunity comes up. If something unexpected and game-changing occurs or is discovered.

I suggest this mini turnset:

Stop Condition: Agriculture research completed (7 turns)

Pause Conditions: Barb warrior or archer appears near Bollywood or gold/sheep. If another AI is discovered. If worker steal opportunity comes up. If something unexpected and game-changing occurs or is discovered.

Tech: Agriculture.

Build: Fast Worker -> Settler

City: Work corn and floodplain

Worker: Move 1W, mine hill, cancel turn before Agriculture researched, move to corn and start farm on last turn of turnset.

Drona (NW warrior): NE, NE, then diagonal exploration. I don't think it's necessary to keep him that close to Bollywood. Even after barbarian warriors and archers appear, it will be quite some time before they are willing to enter cultural borders.

Guru (northern SE warrior in forest): heal 2 turns, NE, SE, then diagonal exploration for 3 turns

Lotus (southern SE warrior on hill): heal 2 turns, SW, SE, NE, E, then diagonal exploration for one turn. This is Deckhand's suggestion, which I like, since it explores the south coast and keeps Lotus close enough to escort the settler in a few turns.

Remember to: ensure that BUFFY logging is working; set autosave interval to 1 turn; manually save the game at the beginning of every turn.

 

[AAA]

Here's what kcd proposed:



I suggest this mini turnset:

Stop Condition: Agriculture research completed (7 turns)

Pause Conditions: Barb warrior or archer appears near Bollywood or gold/sheep. If another AI is discovered. If worker steal opportunity comes up. If something unexpected and game-changing occurs or is discovered.

Tech: Agriculture.

Build: Fast Worker -> Settler

City: Work corn and floodplain

Worker: Move 1W, mine hill, cancel turn before Agriculture researched, move to corn and start farm on last turn of turnset.

Drona (NW warrior): NE, NE, then diagonal exploration. I don't think it's necessary to keep him that close to Bollywood. Even after barbarian warriors and archers appear, it will be quite some time before they are willing to enter cultural borders.

Guru (northern SE warrior in forest): heal 2 turns, NE, SE, then diagonal exploration for 3 turns

Lotus (southern SE warrior on hill): heal 2 turns, S, S, NE, E, then diagonal exploration for one turn. This is Deckhand's suggestion, which I like, since it explores the south coast and keeps Lotus close enough to escort the settler in a few turns.

Remember to: ensure that BUFFY logging is working; set autosave interval to 1 turn; manually save the game at the beginning of every turn.

I agree this looks like a good idea - it allows me a chance to run a turnset with very little chance of a screw-up .

I'll make sure I have all the technical aspects set up and report back

 

[ChrisShaffer]

You also need a green light from kcd or Xc before you play. And we need to confirm that people are comfortable with Deckhand's suggestion for Lotus movement.

Good luck!