SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

[Trystero]

OK - no worker stealing.

Trys, after you've finished the chop by Bollywood, IF it's safe to head down to the copper, you can squeeze out a little extra worker utility by moving him SE and then farming for one turn before continuing to the copper. (Yeah, we may not really need a farm there, but it doesn't delay mining the copper, so what the heck.) If it's not safe yet, I guess you'd move W and finish the mine?

Sounds like a plan.

Wouldn't 1t road be more useful than 1t farm on that tile?

I don't think we'll have The Wheel by then, and even if we did, I am planning on ending my turnset at The Wheel.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Only if we have The Wheel.

 

[Trystero]

I also must apologize in advance - I won't be able to continue playing until I get home from work tonight (~10 hours for this post). Sorry to keep the team waiting.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

No worries, we can be patient.

 

[kcd_swede]

No worries, we can be patient.

Well... we can fake it at least.

 

[kcd_swede]

OK - no worker stealing.



Sounds like a plan.



I don't think we'll have The Wheel by then, and even if we did, I am planning on ending my turnset at The Wheel.

Ohhh yeahhhh.... fishslap time.

 

[Trystero]

OK - mini-turnset played with no further carnage and save uploaded.

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 44/500 (2240 BC) [09-Feb-2012 21:40:30]
Bollywood begins: Warrior (2 turns)
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 12 in the bank

After End Turn:
Drona grows to size 2

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 45/500 (2200 BC) [10-Feb-2012 18:38:00]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -4 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bollywood finishes: Warrior
Drona finishes: Monument

Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [10-Feb-2012 18:38:01]
Drona begins: Fast Worker (9 turns)
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -4 per turn, 5 in the bank

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [10-Feb-2012 18:48:12]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -4 per turn, 1 in the bank

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [10-Feb-2012 18:57:46]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 1 in the bank

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [10-Feb-2012 19:01:38]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -4 per turn, 19 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Bollywood finishes: Settler

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [10-Feb-2012 19:03:44]
Research begun: Fishing (3 Turns)
Bollywood begins: Warrior (2 turns)

Upload log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2240 BC to 2000 BC:

Turn 44, 2240 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 45, 2200 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Bollywood. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 48, 2080 BC: Drona can hurry Fast Worker for 1⇴ with 8ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.

Turn 49, 2040 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

t44: Change build in Bollywood to Warrior. Move Warrior #4 (Om) 1SE into Bollywood. Worker #2 moves 1E and starts chopping. Move Worker #1 1NW and chop. Lotus starts moving West. Renamed Delhi to Drona.

t45: Drona grows to pop 2, works gold mine and sheep. Japanese worker farms corn in Osaka.

t46: Monument done in Drona, start Fast Worker. Worker #1 finishes chop (into Fast Worker). Warrior #5 done in Bollywood moves 1SW (stay close to escort settler). Om moves south near copper. Barb warrior near southern border moves away. Worker #2 finishes chop in Bollywood (into settler).

t47: Worker #1 in Drona moves 1SE and resumes farming. Lotus stays between Bollywood and Drona. Worker #2 (in Bollywood) moves 1SE and farms then cancels order. Japanese archer at our southern border in Bollywood.

t48: Worker #2 moves to copper, starts mining. research slider to 0%

t49: research slider to 100%

t50: The Wheel finished, set research to Fishing (placeholder). Settler finished in Bollywood, set build to warrior (placeholder).

There are a barb warrior and Japanese archer to our south. Lotus is between Bollywood and Drona so as to move where needed. Om is guarding the working mining the copper.

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Bollywood:

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Drona:

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Religion:

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Victory conditions:

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Demographics:

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Top 5 cities/wonders:

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Edit: I should have moved worker #1 from Drona toward Bollywood to help at the new city (as SteelHorse had suggested). I think if we set the build in Bollywood to a Fast Worker next, we could whip it next turn, and have worker #1 road toward Bollywood. We can also whip the worker in Drona this turn for an 18 hammer overflow.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Good work, Trys! I wouldn't whip Drona in case we need to whip it later for emergency defense against the barb. After the FW there I might start on barracks, since Drona will be our big production center. Finishing the farm there isn't all bad since we want it to grow fast and work a lot of mines. If we can just deal with that barb without losses we should be in good shape.

NOW what do we do? The Oracle will probably be going soon--I'd (wildly) guess by T70 or more likely 65. We're at 50 now, and would need Priesthood. Masonry would help, but only if we can settle another city to claim the marble and improve it in time. Given the time constraints we'd have to settle directly on top of it or next to it--those locations don't look particularly attractive to me. Is it worth it?

Fishing so the gems city can build a workboat to explore has its attractions. Or should we go for Writing to get a library, run sci's, and get a Great Sci? Or do we want a Prophet first so we can bulb Theology and start the AP? I suspect that the civ that just got Divine Right (and therefore must have Theology and Monarchy) is otherwise a weakling that started with those latter two techs, and will be hard pressed to research very fast or build the AP before us if we try. Otherwise that civ would run away with the game and/or Buddhists get the AP and we're unavoidably screwed. Unless... is it possible to jigger some religion setting so that the Divine Right civ will be guaranteed to switch to Islam? I know there's a preferred religion attitude attribute, but it's not used in normal games. Perhaps there's something that can be edited in the WB file? Note that the influence of Islam is only 2% versus our 5% for Hinduism with 6 population. So the Divine Right civ probably has only 2 population, or maybe 3. I'm guessing it's stuck on a tiny island. Remember there were hints early on that one civ was set up that way.

Anyhoo, I think we should mostly focus on building workers and settlers and claim land up NW to block Hammy. One axe ought to be able to clear out the bad old bear up there.

Who's up?

 

[SteelHorse]

Good work

Questions: Have we concluded that one of the AI has Theo and DR? If so, has some impact on path forward. Maybe there is hope that one AI switches out of Buddhism. In any event here are some ideas.

Options:
1. Warring - Cat/Axe - Grow to 5 cities, while teching to constr. Pick up pottery along the way for cottages to finance army. Whip an army and pick a victim.

2. REX - Whip settlers, workers and defenders as needed. Looks like we can get to 10 cities quickly. Tech direction - pottery (graneries and cottages) and currency. Then later war with Trebs/Maces?

3. Oracle. Agree that settling on Marble would be best. Not a bad spot either can share tiles with Capital. What to take? Theo (see below on Cultural). Constr - for wars? Currency for $. MC for path to Machinery/Crossbows? Tech Mason, PH, ???

Other notes:
Cultural not out of the question. It would line up with the Oracle path. Try to Oracle->Theo, bulb Philo, Tech mono for 4 religions. Build AP - though the implication of another AI starting with Theo raises the question of whether we would be too late. On the other hand, perhaps we should let other AI get the religious techs and hope the switch.

Alpha seems a low priority at the moment, likelihood of trading low.

Must haves:
1. Copper hooked up.
2. Gems settled and workers to mine and pasture.
3. Axes to the north and east. Pick up some XP. Maybe even provoke a fight with Babylon.
4. Warrior to spawn bust south.
5. Workers and Roads

Other Thoughts:
Drona should grow first and then be whipped down to 2 pop getting some defensive units out. The two tiles being work are strong. It is unprotected now which is not ideal. Bring Guru back for protection.
Wouldn't mind getting a work boat out to explore western land from gem city at some point.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Settling on marble to get Oracle requires us to tech priesthood and masonry. I don't like that spot - it ruins the banana and crab resources. I would much rather settle 1SW to get all three.

Can we get Oracle with just priesthood, forgoing the marble bonus?

 

[Trystero]

My thoughts:

Marble - I'm not crazy about settling on the marble. The only spot that could use the crabs then would be on top of the bananas. 1SW of the marble would be slower to hook up, but would be a much better city in the long run.

Oracle - t65 seems quite early, but not impossible. OTOH, I've seen it built as late as t100 on Emperor. SH hasn't been built yet either, which is pretty late. We can tech Masonry in 4 turns at 100% research, and PH in 3. We could also put a city 1S (Edit: 1SE) of the copper that could share tiles with the capital, and then settle the crab/bananas city later.

Techs - Since the gems city has no seafood, and I think Babylon and Japan would block exploring WBs, I'd rather not do Fishing next. If we want the Oracle, then definitely Masonry or PH. If we are going for REX and are going to be whipping, then Pottery. I agree Alphabet won't do us much good immediately.

Guru - I left him on the hill so that he has sight of Osaka, and is spawnbusting North of Drona until it's border pops. I'd leave him there for 6 more turns until that happens. He can see if Toku is up to something. Lotus should retreat back toward Drona if the barb advances that way.

Espionage - We have 184 EP vs Toku (he has 152 against us). Should we switch to Hammuragawa or split our points between the two?

A dot map, of some of these ideas, and earlier ones we've discussed:

Spoiler :

 

[ChrisShaffer]

The crab and copper cities are only two spaces apart in that dotmap. If we ever build that copper city as a fill-in (and I'm not sure we should, I would put it 1SE of the copper instead.

 

[Trystero]

Note that the influence of Islam is only 2% versus our 5% for Hinduism with 6 population. So the Divine Right civ probably has only 2 population, or maybe 3. I'm guessing it's stuck on a tiny island. Remember there were hints early on that one civ was set up that way.

I think the influence only extends to the city in which the religion is present. So the 2% influence of Islam probably means it was founded in a new (small) city, rather than the AI's capital. The AI with Islam (and his capital) is probably still Buddhist.

 

[Trystero]

The crab and copper cities are only two spaces apart in that dotmap. If we ever build that copper city as a fill-in (and I'm not sure we should, I would put it 1SE of the copper instead.

I think I did that the last time I dotmapped, too. I clearly need more coffee.

 

[Trystero]

Aw crap - I was looking at real save to update the spreadsheet and I accidentally moved Lotus 1W:

Spoiler :

This shouldn't affect anything, but the next player should probably move him back toward Drona.

I have uploaded the revised save.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I updated the Test game to where wwe are at Turn 50 (minus Trystero's slip ). The rivers are correct now! But, differences from the real game are:

• Real game has -4 gpt @100% research -- Test game has -3 gpt
• Real game has 22 bpt @100% research -- Test game has 21 bpt (so it's a wash, right? )
• Real game has 14 beakers done -- Test game has 22
• In the Real game, Bollywood has 2 hammers of overflow -- Test game has 0
• Real game has Japan corn farmed -- Test game needs another couple turns.
  [*]Test game has a nearly completed (94/100) settler in the queue--sorry, I messed up replicating the build order somehow and had to ignore this guy and add a completed settler manually. That will obviously mess things up when you trying building another settler in Bollywood. I guess the best thing to do is finish it and then delete it as if it never existed.

I put the Great Wall in Babylon with the correct culture and borders (on the 2nd attempt--think of the mistake as crumbling ruins of an older Wall). I also tried to "undiscover" those other 2 civs in the WB file--I think the game is treating research correctly, but they still show up as having been contacted.

 

[kcd_swede]

I think the influence only extends to the city in which the religion is present. So the 2% influence of Islam probably means it was founded in a new (small) city, rather than the AI's capital. The AI with Islam (and his capital) is probably still Buddhist.

Recall that founding Islam yields a free missionary. It should not take more than a couple turns for a civ to spread Islam to its capitol and then would probably convert. How long has gone? Of course, there is a fail spread chance since the capitol would already have Bhudism... but that's like 0% for the AI.

 

[kcd_swede]

I really think a workboat for exploring the land that we know is reachable by wb is a darn good idea. The less we know about the neighborhood, the more our strategies rely on guesswork. I think exploration should be the number 1 priority. The wb can return for the crab when it has finished exploring.

I like Steelhorse's options 1, 2, and 3. But I don't like to choose. Lets figure out how to do all three.

Nice turnset Tyrstero. (...and Lets be careful with the real saves)

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Now that Trystero is done, who is up? Can that person post a "got it" and start thinking about posting a pre-play-plan or questions that would lead toward one?

 

[Xcalibrator]

I agree with Gem city building a workboat ASAP so we can explore. We have open paths west and south, and meeting more civs will at the very least increase our tech rate a little. It's also probably the only hope we have of getting more clues on which type of victory to pursue, and it seems that making an early decision on that is key to winning a medal. That doesn't mean, however, that we have to research Fishing next, since it'll be three turns before Gem city is founded and the fastest way to build a workboat is to whip one, which requires time to grow to pop 2. In fact, I'd say we should not tech Fishing next because there's almost certainly a tech that will provide more immediate benefit.

I don't have much of an opinion yet on what that tech might be, but just for the sake of argument let me throw in Masonry. It means an instant hook-up of our stone, which lets us build Stonehenge (or failure gold--120 hammers) with the +100% hammer bonus. Bollywood can then build it in 5 turns (since we're about to grow onto the copper tile), or less if we chop or have some whip overflow. We have a lot of nice land to settle and avoiding the need for monuments or religion-spread to claim land and build up city defenses may be worth a lot. It also gets us started on collecting GPs for a Great Prophet, which may (or may not) be what we want first.

And if things get ugly with the neighbors, 50-hammer walls are half-price so they could be whipped at pop2. Yes, I know walls are generally a waste but to stake out as much land as possible and throttle Babylon, in particular, we'll be running with very thin defenses and walls could buy us a good chunk of time very cheaply if somebody attacks us. I favor near-reckless REXing to grab land while we can.