SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

I can take a turn, but can not play before next Friday or Sat. If there are others ready to go - just say. Will do some testing today and get a plan out Mon or Tues if no speaks out.

In the mean time need to decide on best path forward. I too would opt for the REX path forward. Land looks too good to pass up.
 
Playing Friday or Saturday would be fine - at the pace we make decisions ;)

We need to decide if we are going for Oracle. When we chose stone over marble hill for capital, I don't think we realized it was forgoing the Oracle.

I agree with Rex.
Spoiler :
The King is always right.
Spoiler :
:lol:
 
Played around a little with the test map. Great work Xcal!!
Oracle went on T53 (1880 BC) - not sure if that is any indicator of what will happen in the real game. With all the surprises Liberalism may go in the next turnset.

A few of the AI switched religions. And we weren't the worst enemy of all the AI.

Played test map to T62. Managed to get Pottery, Writing and Fishing. Hooked up Copper. Gem city founded with gems mined and piggies pastured. A city founded up north 2S of deer. And an Axe headed north for some XP. All 4 cities are connected. And we have over taken toku's wheat (that will cheer him up some). 4 workers, 6 warriors, and a Axe.

Headed north for the next city as we will have time to backfill south later. While there are some good spots down there. I think we need to claim the north quickly.

Are there other thoughts on the direction forward beside REX?
 
I favor near-reckless REXing to grab land while we can.
:agree: Get Masonry unless someone suggests something better.

Change my status from distracted to :yuck::old: that is "sick and old" Later maybe switch status to "terminal" (I wish).
Suggest we tech to medicine and build some hospitals so that I can benefit from the extra health and healing rate.

Lich :king: J.J. fading away towards demi-lichdom (Kangaxx from BG2, anyone?)
 
As I've now noted in the Test game post, I forgot to mention that if you add a settler to Bolly's queue it will appear with 94/100 hammers. :blush: That was due to some confusion on my part about how things were built in the real game--the best thing to do is complete that settler and then delete it (wasting 6 hammers and 1 turn with no growth).

After playing around a little, I now reverse myself and say we should tech Fishing next. Otherwise, Gem city has nothing very useful to build when it is settled. :hammer2: Other observations are that we need to build some cottages before long or our tech rate will stagnate, even with 2 golds and a gems. A city up by the wheat will grow very quickly and block Hammy--I'd settle there before near the gold and deer. Henge and Oracle went almost immediately in the test (and probably will for all games using that save) so I wasn't able to try out building either one. Gems city will have very little production once the forests are chopped, so we'll probably just pump out settlers and workers once we have a granary. Delhi grows very nicely with Japan's corn. ;) I hope we can keep it for awhile. In my game I have it building barracks and then axes, but once it gets big it can crank out settlers and FWs quickly.
 
I think we should build the Oracle.

I second this.

I am also changing my opinion about Fishing. Looking at our screenshots, I have been ignoring the landmass 2W across the water from the gems city site. I agree we need to get out and explore/settle that. I am all in favor of the REX strategy. MC from the Oracle might help in that regard (triremes).

Lich :king: J.J. fading away towards demi-lichdom (Kangaxx from BG2, anyone?)

Ah, BG2. My favorite Pre-Civ4 time consumer (along with BG1)
 
Nice work Trystero:)
It is interesting seeing a slavery game from the inside.
I agree on going for the oracle - I like construction for cats,
but I also think a wb to explore should also be a high priority.
The quicker we figure how we are going to win the better.
 
I also would like us to at least make a stab at getting the Oracle.

I'm thinking that getting fishing>pottery>metalcasting and using the Oracle for Machinery is a good deal. I would throw masonry in there if we can get the marble hooked in time to help the Oracle build, but not if it means that we miss Oracle for waiting or must delay Oracle to get Machinery anyhow.

Machinery is the heavy tech on the way to Optics, which would enable us to see the world. It also would give us crossbows if we find iron somewhere, but that's less an issue.

Maybe Pottery>fishing>metalcasting would be better... could start building granaries/cottages sooner. A couple hammers into a barracks in gem city before wb building not a big deal. Depends on what worker actions are planned/needed and what we want to prioritize that they do, I guess.

Anyhow... that's my contribution to the discussion. I like the REX and am not in on the details enough to know what the workers need to do or where settling is best.
 
I also would like us to at least make a stab at getting the Oracle.

I'm thinking that getting fishing>pottery>metalcasting and using the Oracle for Machinery is a good deal....
Maybe Pottery>fishing>metalcasting would be better... could start building granaries/cottages sooner.
Yeah, depending on the city MM, getting Pottery first indeed might be best, and Gem city could put a few hammers into a granary while waiting for Fishing. Note that we'll also need Priesthood in there somewhere to build the Oracle.

Are people still finding the test games useful? I'd say it's helpful for the build and worker MM, provided I can fix Bollywood's hammer problem--I think I know what I did wrong and will try to fix it tonight. (Chris, I have huge new appreciation for your and others' test game work in previous SGOTMs--thanks!) I could also try to slow down the AIs on building Henge and Oracle---remove any stone and marble, drop some barbs nearby to distract them... ;) I wouldn't trust the test game at all for giving us any clues on what the AIs are likely to do---just use it for optimizing our actions.
 
I think we need Priesthood before we can get The Oracle, right? Maybe that should come before Fishing?

Xc, you can also slow down AI wonder building by removing the relevant techs and their prerequisites. Thanks for taking care of the test game, I really appreciate it. I do think test games are useful, all the way up to 6-8 cities and sometimes farther.

I don't think we should spend a lot of time building granaries early. We aren't expansionistic and our city sites are not food-rich.
 
I think we should build the Oracle.

I second this.

I also would like us to at least make a stab at getting the Oracle.

Well - It seems there is a very strong bias for going for the Oracle. Just to be clear on the trade off from REXing. Oracle costs 150 :hammers: (w/o marble) which is a about the same as a settler and a worker. With the copper mine completed we will be at 13 hpt. Assuming a 2-pop whip at the end for 60 :hammers: it should take approx 7 turns to build in the capital.

In addition, we need to get PH which is 93 :science: before we can start. Which looks to be 3 turns with current tech rate.

So assume we can get in about 10 turns. What do we want to take?

kcd suggest machinery. this requires pottery (124) and MC (702) for 826 :science:. At approx 26 bpt assuming gems hooked up and trade routes, this is about 30 turns or so. Will Oracle be around then? Then if not Mach - what? Currency - this fits with REX. This requires Writing (187) + Math(390) for 587. Or even Constr if we are ready for war. We could even go MC though it doesn't really help with REX or war immediately.
EDIT: And of course we can take a run at the AP with Mono, Writing, Masonry then Oracle into Theo

With regard Fishing, I will be a contrarion and suggest it can wait. What will Bombay build if not a WB - warriors, workers, settlers, granery, barracks, axes. While the land to the west looks intriguing, would we settle it before the north? Probably not. Would it be nice to meet other unhappy AI that will not open borders or trade with us - hmm. Could we stumble across the GL and take it - probably not before dealing with the unhappy AI on out land.

So what next - pick a nice tech that we want from Oracle and beeline the prereq from PH.

And YES to the test maps. I find it invaluable when looking at options - thanks :goodjob:

(And the note on the 94/100 settler - missed that first time through).
 
(And the note on the 94/100 settler - missed that first time through).
You missed it because I forgot to note it the first time through. ;) But I think I've got a pretty good save now for T50 now. Current hammers, beakers, gold, and beakers/turn are correct but I can't get the gpt correct (should be -4gpt @ 100% research but the tst game has -3 gpt) and I suspect we're teching a bit faster than we should because of extra known AIs. As for trying to keep the AIs from building Wonders before we do, I've checked that nobody is building any Wonder at T50--does that do any good or does the game just randomly give away Wonders like in the original Civ? I've taken away their stone and marble. I guess if somebody beats you to a Wonder and it messes up your plan, go back a turn, open up World Builder, and delete one or two of the offender's cities. Or the whole civ. :) Heh, that would solve the 'shouldn't have met them yet' problem too.
 

Attachments

If someone beats you to a wonder in the text game, go back a turn, open up world builder, and delete the enabling technology from that AI. For good measure, delete the prerequisite technologies too.

I like rex + oracle.

I also like a military tech from oracle, so we can stomp on one of the tokus.
 
Well - It seems there is a very strong bias for going for the Oracle. Just to be clear on the trade off from REXing. Oracle costs 150 :hammers: (w/o marble) which is a about the same as a settler and a worker. With the copper mine completed we will be at 13 hpt. Assuming a 2-pop whip at the end for 60 :hammers: it should take approx 7 turns to build in the capital.

In addition, we need to get PH which is 93 :science: before we can start. Which looks to be 3 turns with current tech rate.

So assume we can get in about 10 turns. What do we want to take?

kcd suggest machinery. this requires pottery (124) and MC (702) for 826 :science:. At approx 26 bpt assuming gems hooked up and trade routes, this is about 30 turns or so. Will Oracle be around then? Then if not Mach - what? Currency - this fits with REX. This requires Writing (187) + Math(390) for 587. Or even Constr if we are ready for war. We could even go MC though it doesn't really help with REX or war immediately.
EDIT: And of course we can take a run at the AP with Mono, Writing, Masonry then Oracle into Theo

With regard Fishing, I will be a contrarion and suggest it can wait. What will Bombay build if not a WB - warriors, workers, settlers, granery, barracks, axes. While the land to the west looks intriguing, would we settle it before the north? Probably not. Would it be nice to meet other unhappy AI that will not open borders or trade with us - hmm. Could we stumble across the GL and take it - probably not before dealing with the unhappy AI on out land.

So what next - pick a nice tech that we want from Oracle and beeline the prereq from PH.

And YES to the test maps. I find it invaluable when looking at options - thanks :goodjob:

(And the note on the 94/100 settler - missed that first time through).

Being a contrarian is good! If we are all thinking the same then probably none of us are thinking enough.

Good point on Machinery. 30 turns feels like too slow. Your idea of Currency is maybe more attractive because it does go well with our REX plan. Another idea would be to tech writing>monarchy and take Feudalism. LB's would end any concern about invasions, and would speed up our acquisition of Knights through Guilds (assuming there is iron). I'm fine with Currency, though.

I'm also tempted for making a shot at the AP. Masonry + writing we want soon anyhow, monotheism for Org Rel makes a whole lot of sense in the buildup phase as well. AP would be huge, both from removing an annoyance and because those hammers make a monastary better than a forge in most cities. Religious VC cheese is still not off the table. In this instance we have lost little if Oracle BIFAL, because we want those tech sooner rather than later anyhow.

Would it be nice to meet other unhappy AI that will not open borders or trade with us - hmm.
There is a very dangerous assumption in there, that trade opportunities will be non-existant. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy... if we don't meet them, they won't trade with us. This is exactly the kind of assumption that could really bite us hard if it turns out wrong. The reason I would like a wb out exploring soon is just to avoid this kind of asumption. We don't know if REX makes the most sense, actually... sure the land is good, but if the grass is greener on the other side of the water and someone else gets there first, its a long time before we can do anything about it. Also, we have no chance of affecting the diplo situation or seeing our rivals' progress without it.

Fishing is a small enough tech I'm willing to delay Oracle for it, because we need to figure out a VC before we can focus on just that one VC. Right now, REX is a generalist strategy that is pretty good for all VC but maybe not optimal for any of them. The GLH would be big on a water map, but not if everyone is Toku, and we have no offshore cities. But we know very little about what we need to overcome in this game.

I'll also point out that barb galleys will show up eventually, and it would be nice to get that wb out exploring our near neighborhood before that happens.

I see that the northern coast on the southern landmass is all mountains. Would be nice to see what's on the other side, but no, we're not likely to settle there any time soon. On the western landmass, there looks to be mountains on the eastern coast except for the southernmost tile. There is land we might need, or AI who could help us out with trade routes, tech trades, resource trades, diplo...

The map has low seas, so galleys might be able to circumnavigate. AI will beat us to that if we don't get started.

IOW: the choice seems to be between (a) focusing now on REX, versus (b) focusing on exploration with REX as the operational strategy.

I think the two? turns to get Fishing will more than pay for themselves by ensuring we choose the right strategy sooner. But as we plan to whip the WB, we would have some turns before we need fishing, so fishing does not need to be the next tech. Maybe game testing would help decide when fishing should be done. Unless there is consensus that we have too much on our hands now to worry about exploration. Personally, I feel like we are playing without a goal at this point. We're focused on building a civ, instead of on winning the competition.
 
I can't help with deep thinking about what to do right now, but here's some old info that might help others as they think.
  • There are 10 civs total, but 2 of them are a team.
  • There are 10 civs on (what started as) a standard size map. What's the usual number? 7? (I usually play small maps.) So things will be more crowded than usual.
  • From the T0 Demo screens, the most water-heavy AI capital started with 6 land tiles (of 9 possible).
  • By T1, one AI had already popped its BFC and had a full 21 land tiles. This must have been the AI with the Buddhism holy city and shrine, giving 11 cpt (as Trys said in post 153).
  • At T14, the smallest (by land) AI had 13 land tiles (8 water) while the biggest AI had 43 land tiles. That would seem to require 3 cities. How is that possible? 2 settlers at the start (in addition to the presettled capital)? And extra missionary(ies) to spread Buddhism for border pops?
  • At T14 the Demo screen says we had "Population 6000" (with Bollywood at pop 2) while the biggest AI had 27000 and smallest still had 1000 (i.e., no growth at all). How is Demo population figured? Is it a function of both citizen number and food in the food bar?
  • At T14, the Info screen showed the (presumably) largest cities had reached pop 3 (including the Buddhist holy city).
  • At T14, the Religion screen showed Hinduism with 9% influence (just us, at pop 2) and Buddhism with 80% influence. That leaves 11% religionless. Who? Why?
  • Somebody got Divine Right (Islam) IBT39/40. They must have started with Theology (Christianity, which has not been founded yet) and Monarchy. This is quite a head start.
What can we deduce from the above? Particularly, could we (for example) conclude that one civ started on a 13-tile island of which 12 are mountains (or deserts), the island has no coastal seafood, the civ started with no religion but recently founded Islam, and that civ is teamed with the Buddhist holy city owner, who shaves in poor light in a bathroom having a window to the right of the sink?
 
^ eXCALlent. It is clear that the Buddhist holy city owner, is left handed.

It is clear we need to REX, to explore, and to get the Oracle.
I would not delay the Oracle 2 turns to start exploring earlier.
Pick what we want from it, determine shortest path for techs and to build it. Add fishing (and other techs) as there is room. Would using the GP from the Oracle to get Theology be too late?
Are leading candidates for Oracle: Metalcasting and Currency?

How could a 1 tile civ tech enough to research Divine Right?
 
How could a 1 tile civ tech enough to research Divine Right?
I have an idea, not about tech income really, but unreally, maybe. What if the civ in question had a Great prophet for free and happened to have the correct techs for it to bulb most of Divine Right? This could have been done before the game started, to ensure that the AI does not settle the prophet or start a GA on the first turn. Someone who's got the time and brainpower to spend could check if this is even possible and what techs would that require for the GPro to bulb DR, and how much (if any) research would that leave for the AI civ to complete?

Lich :king: J.J. dying in slow agony
 
Personally, I feel like we are playing without a goal at this point. We're focused on building a civ, instead of on winning the competition.

Now you are sounding like me in the last SGOTM. I agree with you. REX, in itself is not a victory, but any victory condition will require at least 9 cities? Since an early rush is out with the defensive neighbors and we have open land we can go the REX route to get to more cities and keep several options open. But even with REX we should decide if Cultural or AP religious victory are ones that we want to consider, because they now impact our tech path and Oracle decision.

I would suggest that AP Diplo and Cultural are similar tech and Oracle paths in the short-term. PH, Mono (Judiasm), Theo (AP), and a 3rd religion CoL?

If AP and Cultural are out (and I am assuming UN and space are out), that would leave warring. Our first real choice for wars would be Cats and Axes. Need 5-6 cities to field a reasonable army.

So lets start with a discussion on victory condition and work backwards.

Do we think AP Religious or Cultural are winners?

Do we think the game will last long enough for Space or UN?

Do we think :ar15: is it?
 
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